Contradicting "messengers"

[soulsurvivor]

Of course, that's according to your religious beliefs, but obviously not everyone shares those beliefs. I'm curious to know why you believe what you claimed is true, and if there are any specific sources that convinced you that your preferred beliefs are correct.

One of the sources: Matthew 24 31 - "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Actually, I don't believe this statement literally, but it does mean the news will reach everyone with a lot of impact.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

One of the sources: Matthew 24 31 - "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Actually, I don't believe this statement literally, but it does mean the news will reach everyone with a lot of impact.

I suspected you were alluding to Jesus and that you might quote the Bible. I take the claims of the Bible with a grain of salt, so I see no reason for us to continue the conversation. As I explained in other threads on a similar topic, I believe that if a man named Yehoshua (Yeshua, Jesus) even existed during biblical times, then he was most likely just an ordinary person and a popular religious teacher, and his devoted followers embellished a few stories about him as well as copied and adapted some Greek myths and attributed godlike traits to him to make him appear to be a god. The embellished stories about him and the godlike myths about him were then spread to other regions of the world, where even more people believed them. Like other religious myths, some stories about Jesus were most likely disputed and modified to reflect the beliefs of various ethnic groups, like pagans. Personally, I do not believe that the stories of Jesus are any more credible than the other savior stories in Greek mythology and other ancient religions that predate Christianity.

 

[soulsurvivor]

Personally, I do not believe that the stories of Jesus are any more credible than the other savior stories in Greek mythology and other ancient religions that predate Christianity.

I believe is savior stories from Greek mythology too - for instance, Hercules.

 

[Trailblazer]

That is up to him. A REAL Mahdi/Christ will be able to manage it. With Baha'u'llah it appears that there is nothing compelling enough to convince more than 8 million people.

How do you know that a real Mahdi/Christ would want to convince anyone of who he is?
Why would he care to convince anyone? Baha'u'llah did not give a darn if anyone believed in Him, since He knew who He was.
He was working for God and He accomplished everything that God gave Him to do. God did not tell Him to convince anyone.

“Behold Him, an exile, a victim of tyranny, in this Most Great Prison. His enemies have assailed Him on every side, and will continue to do so till the end of His life. Whatever, therefore, He saith unto you is wholly for the sake of God, that haply the peoples of the earth may cleanse their hearts from the stain of evil desire, may rend its veil asunder, and attain unto the knowledge of the one true God—the most exalted station to which any man can aspire. Their belief or disbelief in My Cause can neither profit nor harm Me. We summon them wholly for the sake of God. He, verily, can afford to dispense with all creatures.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 85

 

[soulsurvivor]

How do you know that a real Mahdi/Christ would want to convince anyone of who he is?
Why would he care to convince anyone? Baha'u'llah did not give a darn if anyone believed in Him, since He knew who He was.
He was working for God and He accomplished everything that God gave Him to do. God did not tell Him to convince anyone.

The Real Mahdi/Christ will come to change the world. To create a 'New Earth'. If Bahaullah did not give a darn about what impact he had (which was very little), then he definitely was not it.

Anyway, you can believe what you want, but even the Ahmadi leader had a bigger impact and so did the Sikh Guru Nanak - Bahauallah is a minor Messenger in comparison. The Real Mahdi/Christ will be able to move billions, not just a few million.

 

[Trailblazer]

The Real Mahdi/Christ will come to change the world. To create a 'New Earth'. If Bahaullah did not give a darn about what impact he had (which was very little), then he definitely was not it.

It was not Baha'u'llah's job to 'care' what impact He had on the world. He had a God-given mission to accomplish and He accomplished it.

Baha'u'llah came reveal the 'instructions' that will be necessary for humanity to build the New Earth.
The impact will not be felt until that building is underway.

Anyway, you can believe what you want, but even the Ahmadi leader had a bigger impact and so did the Sikh Guru Nanak - Bahauallah is a minor Messenger in comparison. The Real Mahdi/Christ will be able to move billions, not just a few million.

You can also believe what you want and wait and hope for what you believe will happen in the future.

 

[Vinayaka]

Exactly. They all have the information about Bahaullah and they have decided. Only less than 8 million buy the story.

The Real Mahdi/Christ will have no such problem. Once he emerges, the news will spread around the world fast and most of the people will accept him because he will be believable.

8 million is a massive exaggeration.

 

[Truthseeker]

Then how is it you are picking and choosing which you want to keep and which you feel justified to discard?

I didn't choose them , my religion did. My religion doesn't teach reincarnation as is understood by the Hindus. Aren't we like any religion who have scriptures and we go by that? I investigated my faith, that's why I believe in it, and I'm sticking with it.

"Our prophet fixes your broken, corrupted scriptures". Do you not understand the offensive nature of this to those other religions? That may be a good marketing ploy to make converts to the unchurched, but it certainly doesn't convey that religion as a universal religion that embraces all the others to those other religions, does it?

You are offending yourself, in my opinion. I am not interested in converting you. I was just stating what I believe. Because the Baha'i Faith believes in finding truth in other religions that's a terrible thing to you. That's because you persist iin believing that we are trying to "fix" the beliefs of people in the other religions. People of the other religions are taught good morals (usually, in the case of a valid Messenger, or also in the case in some religions not started by Messengers). They'll do fine if they follow those teachings.

I'm done with this. No need to look at the rest of your post. Good bye on the subject of religion, period, with you.

 

[Trailblazer]

8 million is a massive exaggeration.

Why would it matter how many Baha'is there are?

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so." Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

The converse of this is that if many or most people do not believe it, it cannot be so, and that is fallacious.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

 

[Windwalker]

I didn't choose them , my religion did. My religion doesn't teach reincarnation as is understood by the Hindus. Aren't we like any religion who have scriptures and we go by that? I investigated my faith, that's why I believe in it, and I'm sticking with it.

So you take no responsibility for their offensiveness in them saying things like you quoted to everyone reading,

"The doctrine of metempsychosis upheld by the Hindus is fallacious.'
(To an individual believer, March 27, 1938)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 536)​

If you've done your own investigations, and then accept this, then you are responsible for embracing them, and calling them good.

You are offending yourself, in my opinion.

Your opinion is insincere. Your teachers saying about Hindu's' core beliefs is "fallacious" is arrogant, unfounded, and offensive. You can't shift the blame to those who are maligned as it being their fault that they dare be offended by such words. You can't escape responsibility by blaming others here.

I am not interested in converting you. I was just stating what I believe.

Again, with not taking responsibility. "I was just saying the truth as I believe it. If you take offense, that's your problem". Try again.

Because the Baha'i Faith believes in finding truth in other religions that's a terrible thing to you.

My aim is to find the truth in all religions. But now take that and contrast it with this tripe,

"The doctrine of metempsychosis upheld by the Hindus is fallacious.'
(To an individual believer, March 27, 1938)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 536)​

It sounds way more to me like Bahai's are interested in correcting other religions and replacing them with their bright and shiny new modern revelation that supersedes other religions. That's what I see as the truth here. And my bet is so do you, which is why you are about to stuff your ears with cotton and go, "nah nah nah I don't hear you! Na na na na na!"

That's because you persist iin believing that we are trying to "fix" the beliefs of people in the other religions.

I am not the only one who sees this. Most people do. It seems you're the one who persists in denial. If your teachers weren't trying to fix the other beliefs, then why did he call the Hindus' core beliefs in reincarnation to be a "fallacious" doctrine??

People of the other religions are taught good morals (usually, in the case of a valid Messenger, or also in the case in some religions not started by Messengers). They'll do fine if they follow those teachings.

But yours is "better", if they would follow that instead, since what they believe is "fallacious", right?

I'm done with this. No need to look at the rest of your post. Good bye on the subject of religion, period, with you.

Yeah, this is very revealing to all. Of course you are done. You take zero responsibility for offending others, calling my challenges to you a "tirade", believing other great religions are untrustworthy, because we can't really know what Krishna really said, and that their core doctrinal beliefs are fallacious.

You don't really seem to be living up to your username. Thank you for sharing that truth.

 

[Vinayaka]

Why would it matter how many Baha'is there are?

I concur with you personally, and it's not you that uses this argument, but others within your faith, including leadership.

 

[CG Didymus]

I concur with you personally, and it's not you that uses this argument, but others within your faith, including leadership.

If the Baha'i Faith is the truth. If it has a message that can unite the world and bring an everlasting peace, then I'd expect that it would be growing. In fact, if heard Baha'is claim that it is the fastest growing religion. But maybe that's because most of the others are so large that they are pretty much done growing. But, for Baha'i leadership to know the numbers are inflated and not to give an honest answer as to how many Baha'is there are in the world, is evidence that numbers are important to them. And also, evidence of being dishonest about how many Baha'is there really are.

 

[Trailblazer]

But, for Baha'i leadership to know the numbers are inflated and not to give an honest answer as to how many Baha'is there are in the world, is evidence that numbers are important to them. And also, evidence of being dishonest about how many Baha'is there really are.

Does anyone have any proof that the Baha'i leadership is being dishonest or is that just a personal opinion?

 

[rational experiences]

But the Baha'i claim is that it wasn't taught by Krishna. So then, where did those Scriptures come from? If you want to say that Hindu spiritual leaders made them up, fine. But then Baha'is should come out and clearly say that they don't believe the Scriptures of the other religions, and don't believe what those other religions teach. And, as far as I can tell, Baha'is don't... unless it is to quote something that they can use to "prove" that their religion, the Baha'i Faith, is true.

I can see why the way Baha'is are doing it, is upsetting people in the other religions. But... do Baha'is care? What do Baha'is do when they meet a Hindu or Buddhist. Like let's say you meet the Dalai Lama... And he tells you about being reincarnated. What do you tell him? That he is wrong? And doesn't know what he talking about? If you think you aren't doing just that, then think again. That is exactly what you are telling them. And if that is what you believe, then say it. Don't mess around and say that all religions are one... originally. But that now the religion is all messed up and nowhere near being true.

Reincarnation same DNA expressed in a human sex act was studied and information verified. Reasserted consciousness returns.

Memories hence of the expressed life is said holy. By how much spiritual advice was lived before by the role holy man.

I believe the Dalai Lama said things were changing so drastically that he may not return. About mountain cooled holy life ancient first attack re emerging. DNA historic advice.....regarded leaving by forced man's greed from mountain temple a sign.

Due to modern nuclear sciences removing earths heavens god body.

I know they are spiritual holy informed men.

They came down from mountains abandoned their temple in Roman Jesus attack. Krishna themes. Dreams and visions.

They were informed. Came down as holy men to assist healing. They brought medicines. They knew.

You'd find it is written. And as it's the same event isn't data for a satanic theist.

 

[Truthseeker]

So you take no responsibility for their offensiveness in them saying things like you quoted to everyone reading,

"The doctrine of metempsychosis upheld by the Hindus is fallacious.'
(To an individual believer, March 27, 1938)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 536)

That was written for a Baha'i, for our understanding. I was answering a question of how Baha'is reconcile reincarnation with what we believe. It is about us, not about anyone else. You are taking this out of context.

I have gotten angry with what you have written in your posts, and replied that way at times in my posts to you. I definitely feel attacked. Wouldn't you? Take an honest look at your posts.

 

[Truthseeker]

If the Baha'i Faith is the truth. If it has a message that can unite the world and bring an everlasting peace, then I'd expect that it would be growing. In fact, if heard Baha'is claim that it is the fastest growing religion. But maybe that's because most of the others are so large that they are pretty much done growing. But, for Baha'i leadership to know the numbers are inflated and not to give an honest answer as to how many Baha'is there are in the world, is evidence that numbers are important to them. And also, evidence of being dishonest about how many Baha'is there really are.

Oftentimes in countries where they have a census including the question what religion are you, the numbers are less than what are officially on our Baha'i rolls. That's because when a person doesn't formally remove him/her self from the rolls, but they don't consider themselves to be Baha'is, the numbers will naturally be different. Our administration will not assume a person is not a Baha'i because he/she is not active.

 

[Vinayaka]

Does anyone have any proof that the Baha'i leadership is being dishonest or is that just a personal opinion?

Multiple comparisons between country government censuses with the Baha'i numbers.

 

[Trailblazer]

Multiple comparisons between country government censuses with the Baha'i numbers.

I don't thinks that proves they were deliberately trying to inflate the numbers, thus dishonest.
It is possible that the Baha'i administration simply got it wrong.

 

[Windwalker]

I have gotten angry with what you have written in your posts, and replied that way at times in my posts to you.

Are you trying to apologize? BTW, I was not attacking you in challenging your ideas. You however were attacking me calling those challenges as "tirades", which they most certainly were not. In other words, you attacked me unprovoked.

I definitely feel attacked. Wouldn't you? Take an honest look at your posts.

I only began focusing on your behaviors since you started personally attacking me calling my debate challenges "tirades", and then all of your subsequent projections trying to say things like I'm trying to silence you, and other such utterly unfounded fabrications. All I can say at this point is, you're really not much of a debater if you have to try to make things personal like this. Perhaps you might serve yourself better by not participating in online discussions with others? I can't imagine I'm the first person you've done this with, or has pointed this out to you.

 

[Vinayaka]

I don't thinks that proves they were deliberately trying to inflate the numbers, thus dishonest.
It is possible that the Baha'i administration simply got it wrong.

Yes, that could be. Or not. Not that it matters. For me personally, I got suspicious when I looked at the list of communities near me in western Canada, and one of the places listed no longer exists. But again, that makes no difference.