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Context and the Qur'an.

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
the quran does just that. never goes out of date
What about the slavery, torture, using female captives for sex, domestic violence, homophobia and gender discrimination?
Surely those are all out of date?
 

stanberger

Active Member
Can you please explain how the sword passages that tell Muslims to fight unbelievers is not justification to fight unbelievers?
sure at some points you will have to stand up and fight. but unlike bible ' bash the heads of babies against the rocks ' quran says ' avoid harming women children in battle ' sets guidelines
 

stanberger

Active Member
different era. if the ancients saw the west today. men marry men. mothers slay 55 million babies inabortions. 39k dub murders in u s per yr. they would think you all to be barbaric
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
quran ' man created in stages from the earth ' [evolution].
Not familiar with the description of evolution in the Quran. What's the reference?

So how do you reconcile human evolution with the story of Adam?

'the heavens and earth were one piece then were separated and every living thing created from water universe expanding ' [Big Bang of creation ]
That doesn't describe the Big Bang. Also, the idea of the heavens and earth being initially joined and then split apart was present in pre-Islamic cultures. As was the concept of creating life from water.
You probably aren't taught this at Friday prayers of on Dawah YouTube channels, but a fair bit of Islam was borrowed from earlier cultures and beliefs, including Arab paganism.

Also, the Quran says that man was created from clay, so not water. Another contradiction, it would seem.

impossible to have known 1400 years ago by a illiterate man in desert
There is no information in the Quran that was not already known at the time.

Also, Muhammad was not "a illiterate man in desert" [sic]. He was born into a privileged and powerful family. He went on many trading expeditions as far afield as Yemen and Syria, where he would have been exposed to all sorts of new people and ideas. He was later employed to run Mecca's biggest trading business. After he began preaching, some of his companions were highly educated. One had studied at the 'university' at Gundeshapur where Galen and Aristotle were taught (both of whom had written descriptions of human embryology similar to that found in the Quran). Given all this, he was far from an illiterate desert dweller. It would have been somewhat strange if we was illiterate at all.

There is more (or rather, less) to Muhammad and Islam than your imams would have you believe.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
different era.
But you just said "the quran never goes out of date", so you can't claim it doesn't apply to different eras.
Are you just trolling?

if the ancients saw the west today. men marry men. they would think you all to be barbaric
Why do you think men marrying men is barbaric, but torturing people to death isn't?
I notice you have avoided answering this question before. (Don't worry, there isn't an answer so don't feel too bad)
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
different era. if the ancients saw the west today. men marry men. mothers slay 55 million babies inabortions. 39k dub murders in u s per yr. they would think you all to be barbaric

The question you avoided alludes to commands in the Qur'an. Your dodge has nothing to do with any religious belief. In other words, it was a non sequitur.
 

stanberger

Active Member
The question you avoided alludes to commands in the Qur'an. Your dodge has nothing to do with any religious belief. In other words, it was a non sequitur.
Muhammad was illeterate an orphan... bible refers to heavens as the universe etc...so quran got it right ' the heavens and earth were one piece then were separated ' this was unknown at that time ...as was ' you were created from an alaqah [a cloning/hanging thing]. in 20th century embryologists confirmed this to be the blastocyst....meanwhile bible taught ' you were created from the menses of your mothers like congealed milk ' I left church for islam in 2002
 

stanberger

Active Member
"You took that out of context!" is a frequent complaint made when a verse is quoted from the Qur'an. Okay, but so what? Every word in the Qur'an was revealed by Mohamed between 610 and 632 CE, and is associated with whatever was happening at the time. Therefore, every verse has situational context, but is knowing that context necessary in understanding the message a verse was meant to convey?

It's worth noting that historical context was not a factor to the compilers of the Qur'an, because they put it together without any consideration for chronology. For example, surah 2 is actually the 87th revealed and 12 years into Islam's evolution. If it didn't matter to the compilers, why should it matter to the reader?

The bottom line is that the Qur'an says what it says. Many verses, although stated for a specific reason, are worded in such a way as to make a statement of fact or to issue a general, on-going command. Verse 39:27 explains it nicely, "And indeed We have put forth for men, in this Quran every kind of similitude in order that they may remember".

For example, verse 9:111 was revealed in late 630 after Mohamed had taken an army north to Tabuk in a failed attempt to battle, and thereby start a war with, the Byzantines. As usual, the Arab Bedouin tribes (Hypocrites) had refused to join Mohamed's army, and the Qur'an was taking them to task for the umpteenth time for their reluctance to see blood spilled (especially their own). Verse 9:111 was part of that dressing down. It says, "Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain". I fail to see how God telling Muslims they have to fight to get into Heaven needs to be set up by a history lesson.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
quran says ' avoid harming women children in battle’

I’m not sure why you think you can post something that is just not true and get away with it. If you’ve been a Muslim for as long as you claim, then you know as well as I do that no such verse exists. There’s a word for saying something you know to be false.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
sure at some points you will have to stand up and fight.
So you accept that the Quran exhorts believers to fight disbelievers until Islam reigns supreme. Refreshingly honest. Most Muslims try to deny it.
How do you, personally, put this instruction into practice?

but unlike bible ' bash the heads of babies against the rocks '
More whataboutery. Yes, the Old Testament is just a barbaric as the Quran. So what?

quran says ' avoid harming women children in battle '
No it doesn't.

sets guidelines
There are sahih hadith where Muhammad expressly permits the killing of women and children during battle, under certain conditions.
 
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KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Muhammad was illeterate an orphan... bible refers to heavens as the universe etc...so quran got it right ' the heavens and earth were one piece then were separated ' this was unknown at that time ...as was ' you were created from an alaqah [a cloning/hanging thing]. in 20th century embryologists confirmed this to be the blastocyst....meanwhile bible taught ' you were created from the menses of your mothers like congealed milk ' I left church for islam in 2002
The points you are still raising here have already been explained to you.
This is a debate forum. The process involves responding to the points raised by others. If you are just going to ignore the refutations of your arguments and simply repeat your initial, flawed claims, then there is little point in you being here. It certainly doesn't help promote Islam because others see your inability to address the criticisms of it and your defence of it.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
quran says ' avoid harming women children in battle

There are several Muslims on this site. If the above were true, don’t you think at least one of them would come to your defence by doing what you obviously can not, which is provide the verse number that proves your claim?

come on guys, help this poor neophyte out.
 

stanberger

Active Member
There are several Muslims on this site. If the above were true, don’t you think at least one of them would come to your defence by doing what you obviously can not, which is provide the verse number that proves your claim?

come on guys, help this poor neophyte out.
look to passover as an example. in bible yahweh murders infants in their cribs for sins of their fathers. but only 9 plagues in quran exodus story.... no passover. god does not kill infants in their cribs
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
dude you can't keep asking the same question and expect a different answer. asked and answered. yahweh in bible much more violent than god of quran examples were given
It is generally agreed that the Old Testament is as violent and intolerant as the Quran, if not more so. But that is not a valid argument if your claim was that the Quran and Allah are not violent and intolerant.
It's like a serial killer basing their defence on only killing three people rather than seven. You're still going to the chair.

Also remember that you keep making claims about the Quran that have been proved false, yet you don't address the refutations and keep repeating the same disproved nonsense, over and over.
I really can't figure out what you are trying to do here - unless you are a very sophisticated troll who is trying to portray Islam and Muslims in a bad light.
 
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