Consistency of Behavior and Relevance of Belief

[Kilgore Trout]

I dont buy this for a second. You may genuinly believe that you would be a flawless follower of whatever faith youd believe in, but your as flawed as the rest of us. That is why those who do believe fail so often, because they have human nature within them.

I guess my human nature is different then. They don't even seem to try, and are very ready to chalk it up to "being flawed." I'm consistent with my own worldview and I don't even have a larger power to answer to for eternity. Maybe they just haven't really thought about the consequences.

 

[839311]

I disagree. Oddly enough, my personal faith allows me to do whatever I want as long as I don't infringe upon another's personal liberties. So, in that regard, I can drink excessively, do any sort of recreational drug I choose, engage in weird sexual perversions, and pretty much do whatever I want as long as I don't harm others. I am a flawless follower of this particular faith.

Personal faith? What is your personal faith all about?

 

[839311]

I'm consistent with my own worldview and I don't even have a larger power to answer to for eternity.

Is the prescribed way of life in your world view as relatively easy to follow as Eliot Wilds?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Is the prescribed way of life in your world view as relatively easy to follow as Eliot Wilds?

If you think being honest, truthful, personally responsible, self-reliant, self-aware, empathetic, and compassionate is easy - then absolutely. I'm sure the difficulty of this varies widely from person to person.

 

[Falvlun]

ATS, are you talking about the occasional back-sliding or a deliberate continuation of some prohibited action?

Religious people do tend to fall into two distinct groups: those who are religious by default and those who are devout. The defaulters only align themselves with a particular religion because of habit and custom; it is the belief in which they were raised and immersed. They have never really given it much thought, and it probably doesn't effect their decision-making much.

The devout could have started out as defaulters or they could be converts, but to them, religion is the central organizing theme of their life. Each decision would be contingent upon what their religion has to say about that particular situation.

Are you wondering why the defaulters don't act like the devout, or are you claiming that even the devout are not devout enough?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Are you wondering why the defaulters don't act like the devout, or are you claiming that even the devout are not devout enough?

I'm talking more about what you call the defaulters. I think being devout is at least a sincere expression of beliefs. Although, those who are constantly devout, tend to be fundamentalists and extremists, but at least it's sincere.

 

[Eliot Wild]

Personal faith? What is your personal faith all about?

It's about a natural respect and admiration for inherent human rights. I hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men and women are born with certain unalienable rights, among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. This is a faith and creed most notably set forth by Thomas Jefferson in The Declaration of Independence. However, the principles were sort of stolen from English Philosopher John Locke, who most likely stole them from a couple of Frenchman named Jean-Jaques Rousseau and Francois-Marie Arouet, who is better known by his pen name, Voltaire.

This faith in inherent human rights forces me to acknowledge others' unalienable rights to pursue happiness through whatever measures they deem necessary and acceptable, that is as long as they don't violate the rights and infringe upon the liberties of others.

So, in essence, the only 'sin' proscribed by my faith is the sin of infringement, which is to place one's own personal beliefs above the rights and interests of others, to attempt through any instruments or pressures, be those political or brute force, to deny or limit the inherent rights of another. It is actually a very simple faith that basically says everyone is free to do whatever as long as they don't harm others.

My church holds services regularly during happy hour at various local bars in my hometown.

 

[Falvlun]

I'm talking more about what you call the defaulters. I think being devout is at least a sincere expression of beliefs. Although, those who are constantly devout, tend to be fundamentalists and extremists, but at least it's sincere.

Personally, I think it's because they really don't care. Religion, to them, is not really any different than a long-lived fashion trend. You wear blue jeans and t-shirts because you grew up wearing blue jeans and t-shirts. You didn't ever really think about it, because, dangit, its comfortable and that's what everyone else wears too.

I agree with you. If you actually stop and think about the ramifications of having the belief that God exists and he is personally interested in your thoughts and actions, then that should have profound effects upon how you live your life. But the majority never stop and think about it. And thus it never strikes them as such a radical, life altering concept.

 

[839311]

If you think being honest, truthful, personally responsible, self-reliant, self-aware, empathetic, and compassionate is easy - then absolutely.

I don't. Human nature gets in the way of me being able to be perfect. I sometimes get angry. Tell white lies - or what I might think are white lies which really might just be lies of the regular kind. Compassionate, yeah. But, should I be doing more to help those who need it? Absolutely! I want to! Realistically, will I? No. Am I productive? Yeah. Should I be more productive? Probably. Where am I going to get the energy to do that? Self-aware, sure.

Are you perfect?

Now, throw in all the expectations that will be on your shoulders if you convert to Christianity. Open up the NT, and make a list. Its a long, long list. Oh, what if your best friend asks you to go to the movies? You think the God of the bible is going to be happy with you if you go? Instead of donating the money to a good cause, you've blown it in the theatre - and you've wasted 2 hours of your time that you should have used to pray instead. Hmmm, your family wants to hang out with you at the park. Ok, you go, cause its family. Shouldn't you have been reading the bible and trying to understand what kind of a life Jesus really wants you to live? How about the parable of the rich man whom Jesus tells to sell everything and follow him! What does that parable even really mean? Are you supposed to literally sell everything, give to the poor, and become a righteous hermit? How can you be sure what is even expected of you? You just finished a rough shift at work. You just want to relax now. Watch some tv. You just don't have the energy to pray and read the bible tonight. You want to. But you can't. What does God think about your lack of energy for devotion? You don't know. You feel bad about it though. Your walking to the store and step in a pile of dog crap, and this is after you've already had a very rough day. Your hoping no one will get in your way cause if they do you might explode - but the clerk at the gas station is giving you attitude. You want to say, 'may god bless you, sister!'. But thats not exactly what comes out. Oh, youve done it now! Now God is real angry with you! You can almost smell the brimstone!! You go home, collapse on the couch, and say to yourself - 'wow, im a crappy Christian. But this is too much. I can't be perfect. I have 2 screaming kids at home. I don't like my job. Im stressed almost all the time. I have too many responsibilities and not enough time.'

So, you still think you'd be a 'Saint' if you were a Christian? lol. Yeah, right...

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Now, throw in all the expectations that will be on your shoulders if you convert to Christianity. Open up the NT, and make a list. Its a long, long list. Oh, what if your best friend asks you to go to the movies? You think the God of the bible is going to be happy with you if you go? Instead of donating the money to a good cause, you've blown it in the theatre - and you've wasted 2 hours of your time that you should have used to pray instead. Hmmm, your family wants to hang out with you at the park. Ok, you go, cause its family. Shouldn't you have been reading the bible and trying to understand what kind of a life Jesus really wants you to live? How about the parable of the rich man whom Jesus tells to sell everything and follow him! What does that parable even really mean? Are you supposed to literally sell everything, give to the poor, and become a righteous hermit? How can you be sure what is even expected of you? You just finished a rough shift at work. You just want to relax now. Watch some tv. You just don't have the energy to pray and read the bible tonight. You want to. But you can't. What does God think about your lack of energy for devotion? You don't know. You feel bad about it though. Your walking to the store and step in a pile of dog crap, and this is after you've already had a very rough day. Your hoping no one will get in your way cause if they do you might explode - but the clerk at the gas station is giving you attitude. You want to say, 'may god bless you, sister!'. But thats not exactly what comes out. Oh, youve done it now! Now God is real angry with you! You can almost smell the brimstone!! You go home, collapse on the couch, and say to yourself - 'wow, im a crappy Christian. But this is too much. I can't be perfect. I have 2 screaming kids at home. I don't like my job. Im stressed almost all the time. I have too many responsibilities and not enough time.'

So, you still think you'd be a 'Saint' if you were a Christian? lol. Yeah, right...

Ah, so it's just too hard to be be a good Christian, despite the fact that your eternal soul is on the line. Well, regardless of how hard it was, I'd be constantly behaving in a way consistent with my beliefs. The few years of this life is nothing compared to eternity. Then again, I tend to see thing in terms of how I can accomplish something, not at all the obstacles. Maybe they need to make that part of more of their lessons.

 

[Eliot Wild]

Now, throw in all the expectations that will be on your shoulders if you convert to Christianity. Open up the NT, and make a list. Its a long, long list ....

Honestly, I am no expert on the New Testament, but as a layman, this is my favorite part:

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" He answered: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live." But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?" In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.' "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?" The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him." Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise." (NIV, Luke 10:25-37 )

Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that when asked about receiving eternal life, Jesus didn't have much of a list. He just said this is what you must do to be a 'Christian'.

This is why I have bought myself a donkey and I am now taking first aid classes for administering emergency medical assistance. I don't know what the state of public health is in heaven, but it shouldn't be hard to find an EMT.

 

[839311]

I'd be constantly behaving in a way consistent with my beliefs.

No you wouldn't!

lol, ok, I don't think were getting anywhere.

But then, If you ask some Christians they will tell you that all you need is 'faith'. So, if we were to take that belief as the correct one, then it might indeed be a lot easier than your current worldview. I suppose it depends on who you ask.

 

[839311]

Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that when asked about receiving eternal life, Jesus didn't have much of a list. He just said this is what you must do to be a 'Christian'.

Lets see here, as I said, if you open up the NT, not just the gospels, and not just one part of the gospels, you will come up with a long list. Off the top of my head...

1. Give to the poor.
2. Love your neighbour as yourself.
3. When an enemy strikes you, turn the other cheek.
4. Help those who are beaten up by robbers.
5. If your eyes cause you to sin, gouge them out. Its better to enter heaven blind than to have your whole body thrown into the fire.

5 is enough, and I don't think I even mentioned anything of what Paul of Tarsus expects of believers.

 

[Eliot Wild]

Lets see here, as I said, if you open up the NT, not just the gospels, and not just one part of the gospels, you will come up with a long list. Off the top of my head...

1. Give to the poor.
2. Love your neighbour as yourself.
3. When an enemy strikes you, turn the other cheek.
4. Help those who are beaten up by robbers.
5. If your eyes cause you to sin, gouge them out. Its better to enter heaven blind than to have your whole body thrown into the fire.

5 is enough, and I don't think I even mentioned anything of what Paul of Tarsus expects of believers.

I would never presume to tell a Christian or any other religious adherent how to practice their particular faith. If you believe that to be a Christian you must do more than what Jesus instructed in the Good Samaritan story , then you are certainly free to interpret Jesus' teachings anyway you deem appropriate.

However, it just seems to me that you are making things harder than they need to be. These, of course, are just my thoughts and you are free to dismiss or ignore them altogether, obviously.

Jesus was very specific in the story. He said there are only two things you need to do to get into heaven, love God and love your neighbor. That's it.

It seems every Tom, Dick and Harry that came after Jesus thought they were smarter than Christ and tried to re-write what Jesus seemed to make very clear. And yes, to hell with Paul of Tarsis. I don't know about you, but I don't worship Paul. And personally, I couldn't care less what he has to say about anything. He can take his thoughts on women's role in the home and in the Church, as well as his thoughts on the wickedness of homosexuality and any other ideas he penned to the seventh church of whereever and shove up his holier-than-thou rear end.

As to your list of "requirements" for Christianity, more power to you. If you find it necessary to make a list of qualities or duties that are necessary to be a Christian, I certainly will not stop you . . . but here are some more of my thoughts on the matter:

It seems to me that numbers 1 through 4 on your list are basically all the same. If you treat people the way you'd want to be treated, then you will find yourself naturally compelled to respect 1 through 4 on that list.

1. You call it giving to the poor. I just say if you are capable of helping out those who are less fortunate than you, then do so. If you are not, then you have no obligation. Again, it just seems to me that you are making this more difficult than need be. Just be honest with yourself, you know whether or not you are capable of helping those who have less than you. And helping the less fortunate doesn't mean you must give money or material items. If you have the spare time, then help out however you can. It's easy.

2. If you find number 2 to be impossible, then you might want to seek out a new religion, 'cause by my interpretation this creed is pretty much the one, central focus of being Christian: treating others with compassion and in a way you yourself would want to be treated. Everything else is just a bunch of noise and is ultimately meaningless, save this. But hey, that's just me.

3. How hard is it to forgive people? Besides, I daresay, if you are following number 2 above, then you will most likely find yourself with fewer enemies.

4. Yes, you should help those beaten by robbers, if you can. If you can't because you're raising four kids and working three jobs and taking night classes at the local university or trade school, then I daresay you are off the hook. Be honest with yourself. If you can honestly give more to those who are less fortunate or who need assistance, like someone who was just robbed and beaten, then do so. However, I don't think Jesus was asking anyone to put on a cape and fight crime on his behalf. Just do what you can.

5. Jesus was a smart guy. He often said things people don't understand. I really doubt he meant for anyone to literally gouge out their eyes for any reason. He was probably just making some sort of joke that went over everyone's head at the time. I don't know. However, though I don't see how it might be possible, if your eyes are really making it impossible for you to treat others fairly and with compassion as Jesus instructed, then perhaps you can get away with just a good, snug blindfold.


Honestly, as an irreverent agnostic jerk I find myself in unfamiliar territory by trying to speak out on Jesus' behalf. This is not my gig. However, I do respect and admire Christ's teachings. And though I may be missing something, it seems to me that Jesus was a pretty simple guy. He simply instructed us to love people. If you want to martyr yourself trying to do more than that, I certainly cannot stop you, but I think you are letting a popularized, Americanized interpretation of "Christianity" press its fatted weight unduly upon you. Popularized Christianity places more value in phony ceremony than it does in true thoughts and deeds, at least it seems to me.

 

[ATAT]

from the first post:

Not only would I worry for my soul, but my desire for internal consistency and honesty would make me constantly aware of my actions and how they would be interpreted.

I don't think internal consistency is required of either the atheist or the theist.

We don't have a consistent description of light wave / particles.

Why should any of our other constructs be consistent with any of the others?

Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803–1882)
QUOTATION: A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
ATTRIBUTION: Essays. First Series. Self-Reliance.

 

[839311]

Honestly, as an irreverent agnostic jerk I find myself in unfamiliar territory by trying to speak out on Jesus' behalf. This is not my gig. However, I do respect and admire Christ's teachings.

Likewise. I used to be Christian, and I got a lot of positives out of my experience. I will even say that the Jesus of the NT is my greatest teacher.

And though I may be missing something, it seems to me that Jesus was a pretty simple guy. He simply instructed us to love people.

One wave in a sea of opinions. There are so many perspectives out there for what truly is the ideal life for a Christian. Some say, you only need faith. Others, you need faith and deeds. But how do you know when you are doing enough? Personally, I think that we should try to improve ourselves throughout our lives.

If you want to martyr yourself trying to do more than that, I certainly cannot stop you, but I think you are letting a popularized, Americanized interpretation of "Christianity" press its fatted weight unduly upon you.

I come across such opinions fairly often among people, and I don't like them. I admire people when they go the extra mile. Put in extra effort for a good cause. Such things should be rewarded and held in high esteem.

 

[Eliot Wild]

One wave in a sea of opinions. There are so many perspectives out there for what truly is the ideal life for a Christian. Some say, you only need faith. Others, you need faith and deeds. But how do you know when you are doing enough? Personally, I think that we should try to improve ourselves throughout our lives.

I had really hoped to make it clear that an opinion was all I was giving. I certainly don't claim to be an expert on anything. Ultimately, the only opinion you can be responsible for is your own, or at least it seems so to me.

I come across such opinions fairly often among people, and I don't like them. I admire people when they go the extra mile. Put in extra effort for a good cause. Such things should be rewarded and held in high esteem

How is simply trying to love everyone an unlikeable opinion. You have some weird preferences, I must say. No offense, but I think you are intentionally trying to make things more difficult than they need be. If one can go the extra mile, then by all means, I too think they should do so. However, if incapable, I do not think it is required, at least not by my understanding of Jesus' teachings.

You don't like the opinion that I believe Jesus simply wants us to love one another? Well, sorry. I don't like your opinion that it requires more than that to be a Christian, but since these are both interpretations, I will concede that I might be wrong.

I never said you 'could not' do more than that. As a matter of fact, I believe I straight up stated that you are certainly more than welcome to make any requirements for yourself that you deem appropriate. If you want to personally build a house for every homeless person in the world, I find that notion to be admirable, albeit a bit unrealistic. Again, I am no expert on Jesus or his teachings, but I don't think he asks anybody to do more than they are capable of doing. But again, that's just me. Good luck.

 

[839311]

I will concede that I might be wrong.

Good!

I dunno. I think we might just be misunderstanding eachother. I've lost interest in this 'argument', though. And neither of us are Xian either lol.