Consent, Sex, and Drunkenness

[Subduction Zone]

False allegations of rape or sexual assaults have been studied extansively by law enforcement and found to be about as common as false allegation of most other crimes.

That may be, but what we are discussing is something that is not quite a crime. There are cases on college campuses where it does not rise to a crime but students can face severe punishment. There are cases where women are drunk and claim that they were rape. Here is a case where the charges were dropped against a woman for making false claims. She was lucky:

Kansas: charges dropped against student accused of falsely reporting rape

Yes, such cases are rare. But let's not forget such events as the false accusations against the Duke Lacrosse team and what was the Rolling Stones story? Unfortunately when women falsely charge men the cases tend to be swept under the rug.

Are you ready to ignore let's say one case out of one hundred? And that is being conservative. Even in real cases of rape the wrong man can be identified. The Innocence Project has found that far too often. Thank Quob for small favors.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The abuse and ignorance of a law is not the law's fault. It's the people and the system applying the law's fault.

And the subject of this thread.

 

[PureX]

That may be, but what we are discussing is something that is not quite a crime.

What you are discussing are literal iterations of an ideal, as law, and then trying to blame the misapplication of law on those literal iterations.

Are you ready to ignore let's say one case out of one hundred? And that is being conservative. Even in real cases of rape the wrong man can be identified. The Innocence Project has found that far too often.

Are you proposing that the imperfect application of an ideal through law deligitimizes the law? If so, what are you proposing as an alternative?

 

[epronovost]

Unfortunately when women falsely charge men the cases tend to be swept under the rug.

This will sound terrible, because it is, but I don't think that leniancy is necessarily such a bad thing. Sexual assaults of all kind are already severely undereported; from those that are reported many are poorly investigated; several of those who are well investigated are not even brought before trial because they are "too risky"; from those that are brought to trial many still fail as conviction rates for rapes or sexual crimes in general are low compared to other serious crime. Procecuting rigorously false accusations or those deamed false accusations might stiffle some victims from comming forward and allow sexual predators, especially those in key position like police officers, millitary officers, priests, teachers, coaches, etc to continue their business. It's a delicate game and a difficult balance to strike. We might not have it down to perfection, but it's something on which we should be very prudent. There is danger to all decisions. There is also at least one famous case of a rape victim, forced to recant her story, then procecuted to have made false accusations who was later not only innocented of that crime, but was also found to have been a victim of a rape by the person she accused. That's an incredibly rare event, but certainly a horrible nightmare to trapped in.

 

[Subduction Zone]

This will sound terrible, because it is, but I don't think that leniancy is necessarily such a bad thing. Sexual assaults of all kind are already severely undereported; from those that are reported many are poorly investigated; several of those who are well investigated are not even brought before trial because they are "too risky"; from those that are brought to trial many still fail as conviction rates for rapes or sexual crimes in general are low compared to other serious crime. Procecuting rigorously false accusations or those deamed false accusations might stiffle some victims from comming forward and allow sexual predators, especially those in key position like police officers, millitary officers, priests, teachers, coaches, etc to continue their business. It's a delicate game and a difficult balance to strike. We might not have it down to perfection, but it's something on which we should be very prudent. There is danger to all decisions. There is also at least one famous case of a rape victim, forced to recant her story, then procecuted to have made false accusations who was later not only innocented of that crime, but was also found to have been a victim of a rape by the person she accused. That's an incredibly rare event, but certainly a horrible nightmare to trapped in.

I can disagree with parts of this but still give you a like. This is a knotty problem to say the least.

 

[epronovost]

I can disagree with parts of this but still give you a like. This is a knotty problem to say the least.

I personnaly don't think I'm qualified enough to have anything more than a very surface discussion about this precise issue. Doing otherwise would risk feeding very pernicious and potentially dangerous stereotypes and misconceptions. Sometime, wisdom is knowing when you don't know something.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I personnaly don't think I'm qualified enough to have anything more than a very surface discussion about this precise issue. Doing otherwise would risk feeding very pernicious and potentially dangerous stereotypes and misconceptions. Sometime, wisdom is knowing when you don't know something.

Ditto.

 

[pearl]

Apparently neither said 'no' which is the criteria for rape.

 

[McBell]

Apparently neither said 'no' which is the criteria for rape.

Except when it is determined that one or both could not give consent...
For example, if someone is passed out, they cannot say no.
Thus it is much more complicated than "no is the criteria for rape".