Consciousness

[godnotgod]

Riiight!

 

[atanu]

I gave you my answer twice. ..... We can never see ourselves in the objective, or through the eyes of another organism. We are truly trapped within our own subjective perspective, no matter how much we think we're not.

Our personality traits are controlled by our genes and hormones(Endocrine system). ...

But your certitude seems to indicate that you are not 'trapped' and controlled by genes and hormones. You seem so certain that you know the objective truth, so it does not at all appear that "you are truly trapped within your own subjective perspective".

 

[Truly Enlightened]

But your certitude seems to indicate that you are not 'trapped' and controlled by genes and hormones. You seem so certain that you know the objective truth, so it does not at all appear that "you are truly trapped within your own subjective perspective".

As usual you and your friend are forced to purposely misconstrue everything I post. This allows you both a false sense of affirmation for your position. I said "Our personality traits are controlled by our genes and hormones(Endocrine system). .". You replied that my certitude was "that you are not 'trapped' and controlled by genes and hormones". It is a fact(not a certitude) that our genes, alleles, and hormones control and create our over 4000 personality traits. Showing you the literature, experiments, papers, and intuitive logic, would by an exercise in futility to any closed mind. Of course I never said we are "trapped" by these physical processes. The word "control" does not mean "trapped". You just made that up. We all have our "won't power". We can choose not to act on our personality impulses, or controls. That is why we have higher centers of thoughts.

You seem to be confusing objective truth with simple fact. This is normal for people with fallacious reasoning skills. Especially, when they are trying to protect, and defend their indefensible position. So when you make up your own false premises, you will always come to the same false conclusions. Therefore, trying to equate a perspective to a physical process, only demonstrates your level of desperation(equivocation fallacy).

So whether we are conscious, unconscious, ascended, or transported, our perspective frame of reference will always be subjective. That is unless you are able to "mind meld" with other consciousness's, are a perfect empath, or can see your entire 4 dimensional self/body from outside yourself, you ARE also trapped within your subjective perspective just like the rest of us. Saying that mystics, clairvoyants, and psychics, have an objective perspective on reality, is still only from your subjective perspective, not from theirs. Every experience you have is from your subjective perspective. So, yes, we are trapped. Maybe you can give me an example of something that exist within an objective perspective(not IS objective, like reality)? Maybe you can also give me an example of what objective truth I seem to know? No? I didn't think so, unless you are a God.

So in the future, please only respond to what I have actually said, and not add words(straw man), to imply that I said something else. This is called being intellectually dishonest.

 

[atanu]

... This is called being intellectually dishonest.

What is intellectual honesty? You yourself said "you are truly trapped within your own subjective perspective". How does one escape the trapping of subjective perspective? How does one escape control of mechanism .. pre-determined through genes etc.? Why do you cling to the false notion that you alone are privy to objective intellectual power and honesty and others like us are dishonest?

 

[godnotgod]

So whether we are conscious, unconscious, ascended, or transported, our perspective frame of reference will always be subjective. That is unless you are able to "mind meld" with other consciousness's, are a perfect empath, or can see your entire 4 dimensional self/body from outside yourself, you ARE also trapped within your subjective perspective just like the rest of us. Saying that mystics, clairvoyants, and psychics, have an objective perspective on reality, is still only from your subjective perspective, not from theirs. Every experience you have is from your subjective perspective. So, yes, we are trapped. Maybe you can give me an example of something that exist within an objective perspective(not IS objective, like reality)?.

You previously stated that 'I' is an illusion. If that is the case, then who is it that is 'trapped'? Where there is no 'I', there is neither the objective nor the subjective, both being conceptual frameworks of consciousness arbitrarily created by the mind, which is none other than 'I'. When 'I' is transcended via higher consciousness, the subject/object split is merged and there is no longer a sense of being 'trapped', simply because the illusory 'I' never existed to begin with. Actually, this is the experience of spiritual freedom. You keep bouncing back and forth between the subjective and the objective because you are still in the sphere of 'mind', which is a personal view of reality, sculpted by the factual knowledge of science, causing you to think you are being 'objective'.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

What is intellectual honesty? You yourself said "you are truly trapped within your own subjective perspective". How does one escape the trapping of subjective perspective? How does one escape control of mechanism .. pre-determined through genes etc.? Why do you cling to the false notion that you alone are privy to objective intellectual power and honesty and others like us are dishonest?

You make a lot of presumptions here, which isn't anything new. Firstly, I assume that your question about intellectual honesty was simply rhetorical. Or, do you not have a clue what being intellectually honest mean? If you don't, please look up the definition. Secondly, a perspective is the frame of reference(position) from which you view reality. As mentioned many times(and ignored), you have only one reference point. That is your consciousness. Our consciousness is unique to each individual. Our consciousness is subjective for each individual. This perspective is fixed and we can never see outside of it. Unless you can sense what is happening in China, or on another distant galaxy, we will always be trapped within this perspective.

Thirdly, our genes, alleles, and hormones are fixed at birth. They control our "will power", but they don't control our "won't power". This is controlled by the higher centers in the brain. We can consciously control not to respond to how our genes are expressed. Other forms of life have no control in deciding not to respond to how their genes are expressed. Other animals do not think before they act, they just simply act.

Finally, I do not "cling" to any notion(asserted assumption). I am stating the fact that many of your comments are intellectually dishonest. You and your friend have committed all manner of blatant fallacies, in order to deposited your own brand of unsupported pseudo-sophistry. You both have tried to misrepresent, misrepresent, distort, deflect, and avoid answering any of my concerns. This is called being intellectually dishonest(and I'm being kind). There is no such thing as "objective intellectual power"(unless you mean God). That is just more of your made-up word salad to give a false perception of complexity. Also, you can only speak for yourself since you haven't a clue what's in the mind of others.

 

[godnotgod]

.... a perspective is the frame of reference(position) from which you view reality. As mentioned many times(and ignored), you have only one reference point. That is your consciousness. Our consciousness is unique to each individual. Our consciousness is subjective for each individual. This perspective is fixed and we can never see outside of it. Unless you can sense what is happening in China, or on another distant galaxy, we will always be trapped within this perspective.

That 'perspective' is otherwise known as 'I', which you previously said was an illusion, and which I also say is illusory. So in reality, all personal perspectives are illusions, since that which is holding them is also illusory. What is not illusory is that which is creating 'I', and that is consciousness sans 'I', otherwise known as 'universal consciousness', 'universal' because that which is without 'I', that is to say, without an individual perspective, can only be universal in nature.

The perspective is itself 'I'. It is like saying that a tree is made of wood. It is not made of wood; it IS wood.

The 'frame of reference' you refer to is just another conceptual framework of the mind. IOW, 'I', or 'the self', is a self-created principle. It isn't real.

When a deeper awakening occurs, this personal perspective, which you say we are all locked into, vanishes, and a new vision comes into play. That vision is impersonal; it is the vision of the Universe itself. You are The Universe, looking at itself through your eyes. When this 'monkey mind' called 'I' is finally subdued, a universal view may come into play. This is the beginning of Awakening. No. It is not a fixed, unique view of the world peculiar to each individual from which there is no escape. It is freedom itself.

 

[atanu]

You make a lot of presumptions here, which isn't anything new. Firstly, I assume that your question about intellectual honesty was simply rhetorical. Or, do you not have a clue what being intellectually honest mean? If you don't, please look up the definition. Secondly, a perspective is the frame of reference(position) from which you view reality. As mentioned many times(and ignored), you have only one reference point. That is your consciousness. Our consciousness is unique to each individual. Our consciousness is subjective for each individual. This perspective is fixed and we can never see outside of it. Unless you can sense what is happening in China, or on another distant galaxy, we will always be trapped within this perspective.

Thirdly, our genes, alleles, and hormones are fixed at birth. They control our "will power", but they don't control our "won't power". This is controlled by the higher centers in the brain. We can consciously control not to respond to how our genes are expressed. Other forms of life have no control in deciding not to respond to how their genes are expressed. Other animals do not think before they act, they just simply act.

Finally, I do not "cling" to any notion(asserted assumption). I am stating the fact that many of your comments are intellectually dishonest. You and your friend have committed all manner of blatant fallacies, in order to deposited your own brand of unsupported pseudo-sophistry. You both have tried to misrepresent, misrepresent, distort, deflect, and avoid answering any of my concerns. This is called being intellectually dishonest(and I'm being kind). There is no such thing as "objective intellectual power"(unless you mean God). That is just more of your made-up word salad to give a false perception of complexity. Also, you can only speak for yourself since you haven't a clue what's in the mind of others.

Blaming others of dishonesty? Why do you not investigate your stand?

If we are bound by subjectivity and controlled by physical mechanisms, then do we really have any “won’t power”? How?

Also, please desist from personal insults for once.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

You previously stated that 'I' is an illusion. If that is the case, then who is it that is 'trapped'? Where there is no 'I', there is neither the objective nor the subjective, both being conceptual frameworks of consciousness arbitrarily created by the mind, which is none other than 'I'. When 'I' is transcended via higher consciousness, the subject/object split is merged and there is no longer a sense of being 'trapped', simply because the illusory 'I' never existed to begin with. Actually, this is the experience of spiritual freedom. You keep bouncing back and forth between the subjective and the objective because you are still in the sphere of 'mind', which is a personal view of reality, sculpted by the factual knowledge of science, causing you to think you are being 'objective'.

Anything that is dimensionless is an illusion. But just because something is an illusion, doesn't mean that it can't be perceived as being real. Everything that our senses sense is illusionary, but is interpreted by the brain, and represented to the conscious "I" as being real. Our perspective is real(not illusionary), and can be objectively verified. "We think, therefore we are". If you think that by transcending to a higher level of consciousness, you will somehow escape your subjective perspective, then you are delusional. And, trying to follow your twisted and convoluted logic, and meaningless word-salad, have only confirmed my suspicions.

The subjective reality cannot exist without it's subjective perspective. Any other perspective would be impossible. There is a big difference between different levels of consciousness, and an altered state of consciousness. A big difference you seem to have overlooked. I don't care if you distort logic to make even humans appear as an illusion, and life appear as really a hive consciousness. You can manipulate the logic, but not the truth. There is no "universal consciousness", there is only the "subjective consciousness" as seen from the subjective perspective. You are committing an equivocation fallacy. If a universal consciousness did exists, it would not require an "I". If you could read my thoughts, then you would have evidence of the universal consciousness. But you can't, and no one else can either. This in my opinion is insanity.

One simple question. What is the fallacy-free mechanism that allows the subjective "I" to conceive or perceive the objective "I"? Please no more word-salad. It only insulates you from the truth, and discourages those that actually give a damn.

 

[ajay0]

I have never argued against the positive effects of meditation. These effects have been clearly documented. A Neuroscientist Explains What Happens To Your Brain When You Meditate . It is science in the since that it is just another stimulus to reshape the brain because of its "neuroplasticity".

The link you have given is interesting,and one among the numerous research articles pointing out the efficacy of meditation.

The research article in the link points out thus....

Scientifically validated benefits ( of meditation)

Decreased stress

Reduced symptoms associated with:
Depression
Anxiety disorders
Pain
Insomnia

Enhanced ability to pay attention

Increased quality of life

Meditation is also implied to slow down the natural ageing of the brain as well.

Assists learning and memory; emotion regulation .

---------------------------



The author of the article also states thus....

Meditation is becoming very popular lately. Perhaps it’s the anecdotal evidence friends are sharing with each other or the fact that more and more science is coming out to confirm the benefits of meditation that it’s encouraging people to take up the practice. Meditation has shown to decrease stress, increase happiness,quality of life, increase gray matter in the brain, making people more compassionate, lowering blood pressure, increasing memory and more. A great series of benefits from such a peaceful practice.

I feel that many of our worlds problems are not necessarily due to the structures around us presenting limitations but because the consciousness or mindset that acts as the foundation for our world is creating this experience. To change our world from the source, a change in mindset (consciousness or world view) would trigger a different understanding of how we could live and create our world. Instead of simply operating from belief and programming as we do today, we could strip that away and create from a space connected with our hearts and true selves, something I believe would drastically change our world.

This is exactly the argument I am putting forth. Study and practice of meditation in schools can eliminate impulsive nature in young students which brings about destructive behavior leading to killing of fellow students and teachers.

What I disagree with, is your alarmist false equivocation, and faulty conclusion. I don't believe that by altering the state of consciousness through meditation, would in some way reduce or eliminate these violent atrocities committed in our schools.

You yourself gave a thread which scientifically validated meditation as an emotion regulator, reducer of stress, anxiety and depression, and now you say that meditation would not in any way reduce the gun culture and violence in american schools amongst young students !

I find this quite self-contradictory.

You are just another victim of the media's violence image hype. If there were only ONE school shooting everyday for a year, that would be 365 school shootings in a year. People hearing this everyday for a year, in other countries might think America was certainly not a safe place to send children to school. Right? Now let's put this in perspective. There are over 230,000 schools, in over 20,000 cities in the US alone. The US has a population of over 330 Million people. Doing some very simple probability calculations, you have roughly a 0.0000036% chance of being at the wrong place at the wrong time. This means that 99.999964 people will not be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Therefore, the US is a very safe place to send your kids to school(regarding school shootings). It is much, much more likely that you would be killed by a terrorist, hit by an asteroid, die from chronic constipation, hit by lightning, or have a great white knock on you front door and attack your first born, then for you to be involved in a school shooting. So these events fall squarely within the realm of extremely isolated events. It would be like saying that if everyone meditated, there would be no traffic accident or fatalities. By taking these rare events out of perspective, you ignore other causal links that are attributable.

School shootings are something which I have been hearing of for a very,very long time and its frequency and consistency clearly suggests that it is not a one-off incident.


List of school shootings in the United States - Wikipedia

Just March itself has seen four school shootings. I never read of such stuff in other countries schools .


And it is not just school shootings I had mentioned but those by the adults as well...


Mass shootings in the United States - Wikipedia


List of rampage killers (Americas) - Wikipedia


Around a few months back 64 year old Stephen Paddock killed around 58 people who were total strangers and then shot himself dead.

It would be like saying that if everyone meditated, there would be no traffic accident or fatalities. By taking these rare events out of perspective, you ignore other causal links that are attributable.

Traffic accidents or natural accidents can happen even if one is disciplined and on the right side due to faults of erring or drunken drivers who never intended an accident.

However intentional school shootings caused by hyper-impulsive behavior can be nipped in the bud by practice of meditation or disciplines which can help regulate negative emotions that prompts destructive behavior. The thread you have put here itself advocates similar benefits of meditation.

In ancient India, there was a serial killer called Angulimala who wore a necklace tying the thumbs of his victims and killed people passing through the jungle where he resided . He was eventually reformed by the buddha, and ended up as a passive monk who never retaliated even when beaten up by the angry relatives of his victims later on.

There are other similar research articles that points out the efficacy of meditation in decreasing violent or criminal behavior.


Vipassana Meditation Courses In Prisons

Vipassana Meditation Courses For Correction Facilities

Britain's most dangerous prisoners to get meditation lessons

Meditation linked to lower stress among prison inmates


Many research papers and articles in fact are in existence which shows the efficacy of meditation in creating a healthy individual and psychologically healthy human being. Winner of the Ramon Magsaysay award (1994), U.N.medal (2004) and renowned female police officer Kiran Bedi's meditation programmes for prisoners in jail convicted of crime, has been a big hit and replicated all over the world as well. It has been shown to be effective in dramatic reformation of the characters of many prisoners for the better.

 

[godnotgod]

Anything that is dimensionless is an illusion. But just because something is an illusion, doesn't mean that it can't be perceived as being real. Everything that our senses sense is illusionary, but is interpreted by the brain, and represented to the conscious "I" as being real. Our perspective is real(not illusionary), and can be objectively verified. "We think, therefore we are". If you think that by transcending to a higher level of consciousness, you will somehow escape your subjective perspective, then you are delusional. And, trying to follow your twisted and convoluted logic, and meaningless word-salad, have only confirmed my suspicions.

The subjective reality cannot exist without it's subjective perspective. Any other perspective would be impossible. There is a big difference between different levels of consciousness, and an altered state of consciousness. A big difference you seem to have overlooked. I don't care if you distort logic to make even humans appear as an illusion, and life appear as really a hive consciousness. You can manipulate the logic, but not the truth. There is no "universal consciousness", there is only the "subjective consciousness" as seen from the subjective perspective. You are committing an equivocation fallacy. If a universal consciousness did exists, it would not require an "I". If you could read my thoughts, then you would have evidence of the universal consciousness. But you can't, and no one else can either. This in my opinion is insanity.

One simple question. What is the fallacy-free mechanism that allows the subjective "I" to conceive or perceive the objective "I"? Please no more word-salad. It only insulates you from the truth, and discourages those that actually give a damn.

I see that you have now gotten yourself entrapped by your own tools of Logic, Reason and Analysis, and yet fail to realize the convoluted mess you now are immersed in. Will comment in detail re: your entire post later, as I am on my way to work at the moment.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

The link you have given is interesting,and one among the numerous research articles pointing out the efficacy of meditation.

The research article in the link points out thus....

Scientifically validated benefits ( of meditation)

Decreased stress

Reduced symptoms associated with:
Depression
Anxiety disorders
Pain
Insomnia

Enhanced ability to pay attention

Increased quality of life

Meditation is also implied to slow down the natural ageing of the brain as well.

Assists learning and memory; emotion regulation .

---------------------------



The author of the article also states thus....





This is exactly the argument I am putting forth. Study and practice of meditation in schools can eliminate impulsive nature in young students which brings about destructive behavior leading to killing of fellow students and teachers.




You yourself gave a thread which scientifically validated meditation as an emotion regulator, reducer of stress, anxiety and depression, and now you say that meditation would not in any way reduce the gun culture and violence in american schools amongst young students !

I find this quite self-contradictory.







School shootings are something which I have been hearing of for a very,very long time and its frequency and consistency clearly suggests that it is not a one-off incident.


List of school shootings in the United States - Wikipedia

Just March itself has seen four school shootings. I never read of such stuff in other countries schools .


And it is not just school shootings I had mentioned but those by the adults as well...


Mass shootings in the United States - Wikipedia


List of rampage killers (Americas) - Wikipedia


Around a few months back 64 year old Stephen Paddock killed around 58 people who were total strangers and then shot himself dead.




Traffic accidents or natural accidents can happen even if one is disciplined and on the right side due to faults of erring or drunken drivers who never intended an accident.

However intentional school shootings caused by hyper-impulsive behavior can be nipped in the bud by practice of meditation or disciplines which can help regulate negative emotions that prompts destructive behavior. The thread you have put here itself advocates similar benefits of meditation.

In ancient India, there was a serial killer called Angulimala who wore a necklace tying the thumbs of his victims and killed people passing through the jungle where he resided . He was eventually reformed by the buddha, and ended up as a passive monk who never retaliated even when beaten up by the angry relatives of his victims later on.

There are other similar research articles that points out the efficacy of meditation in decreasing violent or criminal behavior.


Vipassana Meditation Courses In Prisons

Vipassana Meditation Courses For Correction Facilities

Britain's most dangerous prisoners to get meditation lessons

Meditation linked to lower stress among prison inmates


Many research papers and articles in fact are in existence which shows the efficacy of meditation in creating a healthy individual and psychologically healthy human being. Winner of the Ramon Magsaysay award (1994), U.N.medal (2004) and renowned female police officer Kiran Bedi's meditation programmes for prisoners in jail convicted of crime, has been a big hit and replicated all over the world as well. It has been shown to be effective in dramatic reformation of the characters of many prisoners for the better.

You asked me to refrain from personal insults, and yet you try to misconstrue and misrepresent everything I said, again. So I am holding back the insults I feel right now.

I NEVER SAID OR IMPLIED that meditation has no positive value at all! Since you were trying to imply that if more students in America would just meditate, there would be less mass shootings in our schools. All after the fact solutions are irrelevant. This is also a clear equivocation fallacy, since these shooters have many other factors that influenced and contributed to their actions. Maybe the bullies, school officials, parents, administrators, and all others should meditate as well. Each case is different, and involve many social variables. It is just not that simple. Please look up the "Reductio ad Absurdum" fallacy. I also pointed out just how relatively rare these shootings are, based on simply statistical data. Do you have any idea of what the statistical data represents? It doesn't matter if you've heard about these shootings everyday. But it would matter if you've heard about them 50 times a second. It is also irrelevant if a captive audience(prisoners) relieve their stress through meditation. How many prisoner's demonstrated little or no effect from meditation? There are also many other activities that also relieve stress, including drugs.

Since my comments were never about the negatives of meditation, spare me your straw man. My only comment was that meditation is not a different state of consciousness, but an altered state of consciousness, because of how the body compensates. Since you expect me to be consistent and intellectually honest, I also expect the same from you. Since my comments were on the existence of universal consciousness, I don't see the self-contradiction. Please explain! I see no contradiction in stating anything that is consistently true.