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Featured Consciousness is Relative

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by The Reverend Bob, Jul 27, 2019.

  1. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

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    When are you unaware?
     
  2. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Deep sleep.
     
  3. Bethsheba Ashe

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    I don't believe I really exist. I think the ego is a useful evolutionary process but in my case it doesn't really believe in itself. It doesn't run the show. It has a purpose and it serves its purpose but it doesn't think it will survive the mortal death. The neshamah remembers many like me. Its nice that it will remember me. I am content with this arrangement and at peace with it. I am not my neshamah. When I am unconscious, the neshamah is still there but it does not have an identity like the ruach does. It has many, and none.
     
  4. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    So the ruach is you? The neshamah is that which remembers you? And the nefesh is your ego?

    That would be peaceful to know. There is a me though, but not necessarily what we associate as a me.
     
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  5. Bethsheba Ashe

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    Not exactly. The ego is part of the Ruach which has all sorts of related psychic structures. It is the intermediary between the Neshamah and the Nephesh. But the body has intelligence too. Your heart has microtubules, and all your organs do too and they have their own types of awareness. We should not treat the body like a biological robot but as a loved animal that is precious to us. This is why I regard suicide as something heinous and unloving, but that's another discussion. I will just say that I think it is a shame that people will love their cat or their dog more than they do their own body that serves them 24/7.
     
  6. John muir

    John muir Member

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    I came back just to further answer. I take questions and either filter them through my daughters perspective and or ask the question about itself recursivsly. So what is conscious? i ask what is asking the question,? i am more interested in it than the question. I them can do an infinite set of regressions therefore the question is self referential. Since its naturally self referential only it always comes back to what ever you think it is. Rev is correct again.

    We can then have two people unaware of that then debate without awareness of its self referencialism and debate as if they even have a valid debate. Common.

    Further more i have pointed this problem out and have gotten "word salad" and when i get word salad well. There ya go. Lazy.
     
  7. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    I have heard of microtubules in the brain. Can't say much about it. I , myself, have never thought of myself as a robot. I know from experience that the body can fail to serve me well. I do not believe in suicide. There are sufferings of the body that go way past tolerance, and bearability though.

    As for the soul, i know that I am more than what I experience, what I think, and any physical feelings that arise. There's like a qualitative aspect where we can decide our heart towards things. Things like loyalties, and commitments. I tend to go by my own sense of things. I know nothing about psychic structures. You have a lot of categorical aspects to your perception of soul.

    I miss my dog Albert, but i wouldnt say i love Albert more then my own body. I will say you have to treat the body with great respect, and never neglect it.
     
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  8. atanu

    atanu Member
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    Pure competence to discern.

    It makes up objects. Objects do not compound it.
     
  9. Bethsheba Ashe

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    I'm an INTJ so I have extroverted Thinking and Introverted Feeling. It's not better or worse, just a different cognitive style. You seem like a feeling person so you'll be able to express things about the heart and your emotions that I would find difficult to put into words, but I think what you just said is analogous to what I said, and its good that you trust your own sense of things. I understand physical pain though, and I have suffered a lot of that in the past. It can be difficult to maintain a loving and healthy relationship to one's body when forced to share its pain. Sometimes routine and regularly scheduled acts of self-love and kindness can help, and showing that sort of compassion for your ailing body is good psychologically too. But I wasn't always like that. That was something that took a long time for me to learn.

    "There are sufferings of the body that go way past tolerance, and bearability though."

    I totally agree.
     
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  10. atanu

    atanu Member
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    Yes. But similarly, in a dream you may see yourself running after a lion. What about that?
     
    #90 atanu, Jul 28, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2019
  11. Left Coast

    Left Coast Well-Known Member
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    The idea of "pure" consciousness without any content seems incoherent. If I have an ability to see but there are literally no visual stimuli to perceive, do I meaningfully have vision, much less "pure" vision? How would I know?
     
  12. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe everything relates to everything else in some way but I suppose that is not what you mean.
     
  13. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe I can say that it is. I can't say that you are unconsciously writing your messages but then I am not a mind reader. Of course God is but He isn't saying.
     
  14. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe that may be true of Skwim but not always of me. Surely some of the things that are not still enter my consciousness through the context of relativism.
     
  15. atanu

    atanu Member
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    Well. We KNOW that everyday, but we pay no attention due to two assumptions. First, most people (scientists too) take the contents of experience to be consciousness. Second, all experiences are by default internalised under a realism-materialism world view.

    We assume that the conscious experience alone constitutes consciousness. But where is the conscious experiencer? We, in dream and in waking state, experience contents of mind-consciousness. We experience ‘I’ as very intimate experience. The rest of the experience becomes a distant ‘world out there’. This problem is further compounded by self reference problem, the 'I' reflecting the 'I' ( like two mirrors reflecting images infinitely). Self reference makes the notion of self overshadow the ‘world’. This, IMO, is the root of notion of realism- materialism: "I am this and there is an objective world out there". We forget that the body-mind-world are all objects to one cognising self, which is not an object of experience.

    But truly, consciousness constitutes both the ‘conscious experiencing experiencer’ (self) and the 'experiences of the experiencer' — the contents of the consciousness. The contents change. But the cognising self does not. The cognising self is the common link through all changes because of which discernment of the changing states can happen.

    So, I said that there is empirical evidence of consciousness in our everyday life. But we pay no attention to it. Mind goes to sleep in infinite, non dual, time-less, desire-less, and rejuvenating consciousness everyday. But we miss it carelessly.

    In deep sleep, there is no duality and no contrast. Subjective experience of this state is of ‘not knowing’. But deep sleep experience is also an experience — of non dual, homogeneous, timeless, desire-less realm of mind. The deep sleep state seems to be a ‘not knowing’ state because in pure consciousness there is nothing to know. There is no second self, no second sound, no second smell, no second colour .... it is like pure unobstructed light of a car head lamp. Until the light beam encounters an obstruction, it is not perceived. In deep sleep nothing is perceived because nothing has been created yet.

    As soon as in the same realm of mind-consciousness, division of subject (I sense) and object (dream world) occurs, space-time comes up. This experience is mental— a mental I and a subtle mental world. In the same empty consciousness of deep sleep, objects get created and as if we become conscious.

    On waking up, the mind is experienced as constituted of subjective experience of grosser ‘I’ and grosser world.

    The cognising subject and the consciousness links the three states of deep sleep, dream, and waking. The conscious self that sees the states and the transitions persists through the states of sleep, dream, and waking.

    So, the deep sleep experience, which seems unconscious to the unthinking ignorant, is actually the experience of pure consciousness devoid of any partition and objects. (Same deep sleep experiences under full consciousness of a meditator is the experience of the non dual self, which is pure consciousness).

    In above note, only the red part is promissory, that one has to subjectively experience through meditation or through entheogen. Rest of the note is everyday experience of everyone, but examined in light of a world view different from that of materialism.
    ...
     
    #95 atanu, Aug 28, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2019
  16. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    To me I think it seems to mean that consciousness is subject to diffusion. But to say that it is relative, you have to prove that each of the points of consciousness that exist can be fundamentally different in nature from the next.
     
  17. Willamena

    Willamena Just me
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    My agreeance or disagreeance is objective. It happens.

    I will dispute consciousness itself.

    And everything is relative.
     
  18. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    does a falling tree make a noise?.....if you are not there to be aware of it

    reality is separate of us

    but being awake is one thing
    being aware is something else
     
  19. atanu

    atanu Member
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    With what instrument will you dispute consciousness?:)
     
  20. Workman

    Workman UNIQUE

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    Unconscious is the mind itself..
    Conscious however is not by the mind..it is by their own self body..being collected from its unconscious(mind)..to make of its reality. The body(conscious) be from our Soul that makes and decides for in your Persons being from its unconscious mind
    It is why when you are dreaming in your unconsciousness mind..that you are falling..what wakes you up?
    And don’t forget the body is the same as the earth.

    I’ll add this one for you’ll to understand more of whom we all truly are!
    There is always two sides of the story..
    Including your own life! Your reality in this world..than your reality in your dreams..the person that you are in your dreams is whom you truly are more than yourself that be you here in reality...
    We all sin through Eve..Ning, whilst sleep your dreams is where your doings in all your sinning..and reasoned by your dreams that are...were/are caused from your beliefs in the reality here and now...if you are non-spiritual person..you have no control of your dreams maybe even not remembering them..but the more that you are spiritual dependent on with what your beliefs are..you gain more your dream..your dreams than changes..you start then to remember..and gain trust in oneness with it..that it gives all what a mind can do...yes to a point where you can know you are dreaming in it..and ask questions by roaming in your unconsciousness..that I have somehow experienced it by dreaming..I had even spoken to it(mind) and believe it not..it spoke back in a form of a computer voice..but i recognised it was my own tone of voice..lol, the rest I leave it up to you..to decide.
     
    #100 Workman, Aug 29, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2019
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