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Consciousness in Cavemen? A Debate.

mickiel

Well-Known Member
Well that would mean (if they did not have conciousness) that they would not be human, or they were all in a coma, which would pretty much be impossible, since a person in a coma doesn't pass the time by whittling spear heads.


Oh no, no , you misunderstand. Even conscious people do things unconsciously, and they can be very specfic complex things like driving. A person can be driving, talking on the phone, using their hands and feet, moving their mouths, using their eyes, and yet be conscious enough not to steer toward the curve of the street. Do all these things, but yet only be conscious of doing one of them, and sometimes none of them!

Cavemen could do a lot of things, but I don't think they were conscious of doing them. Their lives do not add up to consciousness in my view, neither do animals.

Peace.
 

mickiel

Well-Known Member
So he killed off all homo sapiens and then started them back up again with consciousness?


He killed off all cavemen, then recreated humans in his " Image", which I think means " Consciousness." Consciousness is the image of God, and cavemen were not created in his image.

Peace.
 

enchanted_one1975

Resident Lycanthrope
I never have believed that civilization is just 2000 years old...
I don't think anyone of any religion (or lack of religion) believes this. That age would have corresponded to the supposed time of Jesus, but has nothing to do with civilization, creation, or evolution theories. We actually have things from civilizations known to be much much older than that. They don't even require "proof" threads to be taken seriously. :D
 

Amill

Apikoros
He killed off all cavemen, then recreated humans in his " Image", which I think means " Consciousness." Consciousness is the image of God, and cavemen were not created in his image.

Peace.

What counts as a caveman? The evidence suggests that homo sapiens existed for tens of thousands of years before becoming advanced enough to where you'd call them conscious, so they couldn't have been descended from Adam, could they?
 

mickiel

Well-Known Member
What counts as a caveman? The evidence suggests that homo sapiens existed for tens of thousands of years before becoming advanced enough to where you'd call them conscious, so they couldn't have been descended from Adam, could they?


No, they lived long before Adam. Consciousness comes directly from God, not from evolution over a period of time.

Peace.
 
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The Neo Nerd

Well-Known Member
How is this thread any different from you so called "proof of god" threads.

Still just assumption with no fact.

But these forums have been kinda boring since those threads were shut down, so please continue.

-Q
 

Tristesse

Well-Known Member
He killed off all cavemen, then recreated humans in his " Image", which I think means " Consciousness." Consciousness is the image of God, and cavemen were not created in his image.

Peace.

So "god" messes up, and as a result kills off millions of pre-humans. Thats insanity, he's worse than hitler.
 

mickiel

Well-Known Member
How is this thread any different from you so called "proof of god" threads.

Still just assumption with no fact.

But these forums have been kinda boring since those threads were shut down, so please continue.

-Q


Well this one is perhaps destined to be closed also, thats just how it is for me. With Cavemen, yes, a lot of this is my own speculation, no doubt there, but I trust my own mind very much so. Something went on back then that kept cavemen from civilizing, I know its a big jump in reality, but I actually believe they had no consciousness, or no " Working active Consciousness." Oh they could think, do task,make weapons, bury their dead and cook, but even conscious people can do those things unconsciously. For example, I am now consciously typing and using my eyes to look at the screen, but unconsciously, I am aware of what day it is and what time it is and who is president of this country( just in example, because now I am consciously thinking about those things).

The point being that we actively do things, but do just as many things if not more things subconsciously, not even being aware of what we are doing. So I think its highly possible for a whole race of humans to be subconscious, or not conscious at all, but yet still be actively doing things, like living out their existence. Such a race will make very little progress, if any.

Peace.
 
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mickiel

Well-Known Member
So "god" messes up, and as a result kills off millions of pre-humans. Thats insanity, he's worse than hitler.


Where did he " Mess up", show me that. He was not expermenting, he was doing somethingelse, I only wish I knew what it was. Its not messing up to create life, you speak from the frustration of unbelief. Unbelief offers that frustration, when you deal with God, you deal with a being who controls life and death, its his to do with as he pleases.

He created you, he gave you and I life, and he will one day take it back. He killed off millions of dinosorus also, I can only quess why. To make way for us perhaps, an upgrade, not a mess up.

Unbelief sours your view of him.

Peace.
 

The Neo Nerd

Well-Known Member
Well this one is perhaps destined to be closed also, thats just how it is for me. With Cavemen, yes, a lot of this is my own speculation, no doubt there, but I trust my own mind very much so. Something went on back then that kept cavemen from civilizing, I know its a big jump in reality, but I actually believe they had no consciousness, or no " Working active Consciousness." Oh they could think, do task,make weapons, bury their dead and cook, but even conscious people can do those things unconsciously. For example, I am now consciously typing and using my eyes to look at the screen, but unconsciously, I am aware of what day it is and what time it is and who is president of this country( just in example, because now I am consciously thinking about those things).

The point being that we actively do things, but do just as many things if not more things subconsciously, not even being aware of what we are doing. So I think its highly possible for a whole race of humans to be subconscious, or not conscious at all, but yet still be actively doing things, like living out their existence. Such a race will make very little progress, if any.

Peace.

OK i'd like to check some facts about your theory here.

Do you believe that human consciousness, language and systems of government all just suddenly came into existence one day, or was it a slow process?

you speak from the frustration of unbelief.

How do you know this?

-Q
 
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rojse

RF Addict
How is this thread any different from you so called "proof of god" threads.

Still just assumption with no fact.

But these forums have been kinda boring since those threads were shut down, so please continue.

-Q

You don't want to go into that?
 

mickiel

Well-Known Member
OK i'd like to check some facts about your theory here.

Do you believe that human consciousness, language and systems of government all just suddenly came into existence one day, or was it a slow process?



-Q


Well human consciousness and Language were given to Adam in one day, I think Government was a slow process.

Peace.
 

mickiel

Well-Known Member
Let me further define " Civilization;" Civilization is the art of living in towns of such size that everyone does not know everyonelse. Not a very inspiring definition perhaps, but a true one. All Civilizations has had this in common. They had food production, towns and citys, religious churchs or temples, a place for the dead and Agriculture. Now I think Civilization began in around 9,000 B.C., but thats just a questimate. Agriculture evidence such as sickle blades and milling stones of Eynan appear more or less simultaneously in the Levant and Irag regions in the Near Eastern Highlands, suggesting an infusion of Agriculture, Archaeoligist unearthed farming settlements. By 7,000 B.C. Agriculture had become the primary subsistence of farming settlements found in assorted sites in the Levant, the Zagros and southwestern Anatolia areas. The crops consisted of einkorn, emmer and barley, and the domesticated animals were goats, sheep and pigs. By 6,000 B.C. this kind of community spread over much of the Near East. By 5,000 B.C. the Tigris-Euphrates and Nile communitys were swelling into large populations with intensive cultural landscape. In my view, Civilization began in Egypt. Cities of 10,000 inhabitants, such as " Merinde" on the western edge of the Nile, were not uncommon. The great dynasties of " Ur" and of Egypt began their mighty impact on history.

Now in cavemen, we had these numbers in population, perhaps more. They had " Plenty of Time" to organize and develop into civilizations, they didnot. They never developed language beyong grunts and stick figure drawing. Almost childlike existence, they never educated themselves. They never created farming and Agriculture. They never formed churchs or built temples.

Now my thesis is that this was so, because they had no conscious to propel them to do so and advance.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.
 

mickiel

Well-Known Member
The signals and visual things that cavemen did to communicate were far removed from the syntactical language that we practice today. When you carry this speechlessness down through thousands of years through the Pleistocene age, and cavemen are still using primitive pebble choppers and hand axes, with no language, I question how if they can transmit rudimentary skills from one generation to another, how come they didnot develop and pass down language? Because their skills were transfered soley by imitation, exactly the same way Chimpanzees transmit the trick of inserting sticks into ant hills to get ants is passed down.

Language makes the dramatic changes in our attention to things and persons, and it allows a transfer of information of an enormous scope, and it allows Archaeology to track and show those changes. Cavemen showed no changes because they had no language, they had no language because they had no consciousness.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
I have often been accused of not debating, which I disagree with. But I will make a " Conscious effort" to dispute that accusation in this thread. I am interested in Ancient history, and the bible is part of that in my view. I never have believed that civilization is just 2000 years old or that Adam was the first human created. Obviously we had Nenderthal and Cromagnon prehistoric humans, obviously. But its my contention that they couldnot have had Consciousness, as we have it. And I don't think Consciousness is complettely understood.

If God would have given them Consciousness, Civilization would have started with them. Language would have began with them. Mathmatics would have began with them, Government would have began with them, Science would have began with them. None of these things began with them, so I see no way possible they had anything beyond an " Instinctual Consciousness."

Peace.

Well there were various stages or pre-historic man. We have information that shows they lived in social groups, buried their dead. We know how they lived, hunted etc. We can't use our current day version of science and technology and apply it where we want. It doesn't work that way. Just a few hundred years ago we were living by candle light and heating our homes with firewood. Plumbing was a hole in the ground. People lived shorter lives etc. So science, technology and discovery continues to progress and evolve.
 

Amill

Apikoros
Now in cavemen, we had these numbers in population, perhaps more. They had " Plenty of Time" to organize and develop into civilizations, they didnot. They never developed language beyong grunts and stick figure drawing. Almost childlike existence, they never educated themselves. They never created farming and Agriculture. They never formed churchs or built temples.

But how could you possibly know that? And there are plenty of reasons why they weren't able to advance into large civilizations. I would guess that a large factor in their progress was the ability to cooperate with other tribes. They started to protect one another, help one another, trade with one another, and share ideas with one another. That would have been a great step forward. And of course there's a whole bunch of environmental factors that would have slowed their progress down. Such as climate changes, ice age, super volcano eruptions, massive predators, and competition from other tribes and other species of human. Is it really that unbelievable that it took a long time before large civilizations popped up? Do you really think it's so easy that it should have only taken a few thousand years or something?

Language makes the dramatic changes in our attention to things and persons, and it allows a transfer of information of an enormous scope, and it allows Archaeology to track and show those changes. Cavemen showed no changes because they had no language, they had no language because they had no consciousness.
You say that they all learned by imitation, but how is language not just imitation as well? And how could tribes learn how to create fire without at least one person coming up with the idea? How can burying the dead be an imitation. An imitation of what? Someone first had to come up with a reason to bury the dead, whether to keep predators away, for health reasons, or for spiritual reasons.

Please explain why you think burying the dead is something merely imitated, or as you put earler, "instinctual" consciousness.
 
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xkatz

Well-Known Member
I have often been accused of not debating, which I disagree with. But I will make a " Conscious effort" to dispute that accusation in this thread. I am interested in Ancient history, and the bible is part of that in my view. I never have believed that civilization is just 2000 years old or that Adam was the first human created. Obviously we had Nenderthal and Cromagnon prehistoric humans, obviously. But its my contention that they couldnot have had Consciousness, as we have it. And I don't think Consciousness is complettely understood.

If God would have given them Consciousness, Civilization would have started with them. Language would have began with them. Mathmatics would have began with them, Government would have began with them, Science would have began with them. None of these things began with them, so I see no way possible they had anything beyond an " Instinctual Consciousness."

Peace.

I agree. People just aren't born with knowledge nor do they just happen to wake up and have some revelation from god or whatever. Also how could of humanity began with just two people? It just doesn't add up. Consciousness developed over time as humans became more aware of the world around them and how the world works.
 
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