Confused about Sikhism/Hinduism differences

[ronki23]

Don't say "the victims say". The victims are not there to tell the story. And who counted the deaths? Even a small number of terrorists can cause a lot of murders when they hold sway. What I hear is that at least a same number of Hindus were killed. What the video says is irrelevant. There should be a proof. No, this was not 1993. The disturbance subsided after Operation Blue Star in 1984. You can hear similar stories from Kashmir separatists and Pakistani media. But the fact is that Kashmir also has a fairly elected Hindu-Muslim government with a Hindu Deputy Chief Minister. In a house of 87, 28 members of PDP and 25 members of the Hindu party BJP, making a total of 53 (which makes a majority with 61%).

If you want to be politically correct then it's the victims' families who were affected. But in turn they became victims when they lost their sons, brothers and fathers

The video was based on this book

The book is organized into 7 chapters, each containing further subsections and finishing in 634 pages with the authors giving their conclusion and suggestions. The book starts by giving a chronology of events and a detailed information into Jaswant Singh Khalra case. The following chapters look into details of missing Sikhs and discrepancies of law and its deliberate misuse. It also presents the organizational structure of Punjab police. The book contains over 500 testimonies by the families of the victims, and describes 672 cases of alleged illegal executions by the police in the Amritsar district

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amritsar_district

Jaswant Singh Khalra was a bank director in the city of Amritsar in Punjab during the militancy. Following Operation Blue Star, the assassination of Indira Gandhi, and the 1984 Anti-Sikh Riots, police were empowered to detain suspects for any reason, ostensibly as suspected terrorists. Police were accused of killing unarmed suspects in staged shootouts and burning thousands [2] of dead bodies to cover up the murders.[3]

While searching for some colleagues who went missing, Jaswant Singh Khalra discovered files from the municipal corporation of the city of Amritsar which contained the names, age, address of those who had been killed and later burned by the Police.[4] Further research revealed other cases in 3 other districts in Punjab, increasing the list by thousands.[5]...

On 6 September 1995, while washing his car in front of his house, Khalra was abducted by under-cover commandos of Punjab Police at behest of Senior Superintendent of Police Ajit Singh Sandhu and taken to Jhabal police station.[7] Although witnesses gave statements implicating the police[7] and have named former police chief Kanwar Pal Singh Gill as a conspirator,[8] police denied having ever arrested or detained him, and claimed to have no knowledge of his whereabouts.

In 1996, the Central Bureau of Investigation found evidence that he was held at a police station in Tarn Taran and recommended the prosecution of nine Punjab police officials for murder and kidnapping.[7] Those accused of his murder were not charged for ten years,[9] though one of the suspects committed suicide in 1997.[7] On 18 November 2005, six Punjab police officials were convicted and sentenced to seven years imprisonment for Khalra’s abduction and murder.[10] On 16 October 2007 a division bench of Punjab and Haryana High Court, chaired by Justices Mehtab Singh Gill and A N Jindal, extended the sentence to Life imprisonment for four accused Satnam Singh, Surinder Pal Singh, Jasbir Singh (all former Sub Inspectors) and Prithipal Singh (former Head Constable).[11][12]

 

[ronki23]

Sikh rights in India

In April 2014, a Sting operation conducted by Cobrapost claimed that the Government didn't allow Delhi Police to act in 1984 riots. It further claimed that messages were broadcast directing police to not take action against rioters. Even fire brigade refused to move to areas where cases of arson were reported.[77]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_anti-Sikh_riots#cite_note-78

In 2011, Human Rights Watch reported the Government of India had "yet to prosecute those responsible for the mass killings".[14] The 2011 WikiLeaks cable leaks revealed that the United States was convinced about the complicity of the Indian government ruled by the Indian National Congress in the riots, and termed it as "opportunism" and "hatred" of the Congress government against Sikhs.[15][16] The United States has refused to recognize the riots as genocide, but do acknowledge that "grave human rights violations" did take place.[17] Also in 2011, a new set of mass graves were discovered in Haryana, and Human Rights Watch reported that "Widespread anti-Sikh attacks in Haryana were part of broader revenge attacks" in India.[18]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_anti-Sikh_riots#cite_note-18

Sikh rights in Pakistan

After the independence of Pakistan and the migration of nearly all Sikhs to India the Sikh community's rights were diminished as their population decreased.[7] The Pakistani Constitution states that Sikhism is a monotheistic religion. Recently the Sikh community within Pakistan has been making every effort possible to progress in Pakistan. For example Harcharan Singh became the first Sikh to join the Pakistan Army. For the first time in the 58 year history of Pakistan there has a Sikh been selected into Pakistan's army. Prior to Harcharan Singh's selection in the Pakistani army no individual person who was a member of the Hindu or the Sikh community were ever enrolled in the army, but there are reports which states that the Pakistani Christian community has served in the army and some had even reached into to the ranks of a Brigadier in the army. Moreover, members of the tiny Parsi community have some representation in the Armed Forces.[8] First time in the history of Pakistan as well as in the history of Lahore a Sikh person has been appointed as a traffic Sub Inspector. Dr. Gulab Singh who is just 25 years old, is a practising homeopathic doctor and he is from the same place as Harcharan Singh (Nankana Sahib). Gulab Singh is fluent in Urdu, Punjabi, Pashto, Saraiki, Sindhi, and little bit of English.[9]

In yet another contribution to the Pakistani Sikh community, Pakistan Government enacted the Sikh marriage act, Anand Marriage act, in November 2007. This Sikh marriage act allows not only the Sikhs in Pakistan, but also Sikhs living in anywhere in the world to register in Pakistan with the Sikh marriage act.[10] [11] Many pilgrim Sikhs couples from abroad have reaffirmed their marriage vows in Pakistan under the Sikh marriage act.

Hindu-Sikh relations in Pakistans

On 24 May 2014 the Sikhs protested over the sacrilege of the copies of Sikh’s holy book, Guru Granth Sahib, by the Hindus in various parts of the Sindh province. On Facebook photo Swami Saeen Narayan Bhajan, a young Hindu man in his late 20s, is seen signing the Sikh scripture after drawing Ganesh a symbol belonging to the Hindu faith. The Pakistan Sikh Council has also alleged that the copies of sacred Sikh Scripture have been burnt, and torn off in Hindu temples in Mehhar, Pano Aqil, Sukkur, Mirpur Mathelo and Shikarpur cities.[15]

Things like this make me wonder if Sikhs are truly happy in India. That and the fact we don't have an explanation WHY the Sikhs thought Pakistan would be unsafe for them to live in compared to Hindu India. We can see that India has not been too kind to Sikhs with Operation Woodrose but we don't know why the Sikhs gave up on Khalistan when Gandhi said 'yes' but Nehru said 'no'. After all, if Sikhism and Hinduism are different religions independent of one another, then what makes Hindu India any better than Muslim Pakistan? There's clearly a link between Hinduism and Sikhism due to the Udasees and the Gurus supporting them in their journies

 

[Aupmanyav]

Pakistanis and Sikhs abroad can say whatever they want. We know what they will say and it has no effect in India. Worry about the history, Punjab chugs on.

February 2015 City Council results: Of the 2,037 elected representatives of the 122 municipal committees, councils and city panchayats, the Shiromani Akali Dal (SAD) won from 813 seats, the independents are a close at second with 623 seats followed by the BJP with 348 and the Congress at fourth place with 253 seats. SAD + BJP combine rules Punjab. The combine got a total of 1161 seats. Results valid for next five years.
Punjab Parliamentary elections: 2014: SAD 4, BJP 2, Congress 4, Aam Aadmi Party (AAP) 4. BJP combine rules at the Center till 2019.
Punjab Legislative Assembly: 2012 elections. Total seats 117. SAD 56 + BJP 12 Total 68. Rule till 2917.

This is what matters. This is the decree of the people, Vox Populi.

 

[ronki23]

Just wanted to point out that Sikhs for Justice, Dal Khalsa UK,and Sikh United Sikhs all support the Punjab 2020 referendum regarding partition of Punjab from India so you can't say Khalistan is a 'dead' movement

Sikhs for Justice | Facebook

Dal Khalsa UK | Facebook

Sikh Federation UK posts about how Bapu Surat Singh is dying of hunger regarding the release of political prisoners in India.

Sikh Federation UK - SFUK | Facebook

How did Sikhs know they'd be safer in a Hindu dominated country than a Muslim one? This is what Jinnah said

Jinnah started by saying that he was very anxious to have the Sikhs agree to Pakistan and he was prepared to give them everything that they wanted, if they could accept Pakistan. I said to him, “Mr Jinnah you are being very generous, but we would like to know exactly what our position will be.” Jinnah retorted, saying “you will have a Government, you will have a Parliament and you will have Defence forces, what part will the Sikhs have in all these.” He further said, “are you familiar with what happened in Egypt? I will deal with the Sikhs as Zaghlul Pasha dealt with the Copts (the Christian minority) when Egypt became independent.” He then went on to tell us the story. According to Jinnah, the Copts when they first met Zaghlul Pasha put forward some demands. After listening to them he advised them to go back, think the whole thing over and come to see him again with a paper incorporating all their demands. They did this. Zaghlul Pasha took the paper from them and without reading it wrote on it “I agree.” Mr Jinnah added, “That is what I will do with the Sikhs.”

Hardit Singh further recalls, “this put us in an awkward position. We were determined not to accept Pakistan under any circumstances and here was the Muslim Leader offering us everything. What to do?”

Then I had an inspiration and I said, “Mr Jinnah, you are being very generous. But supposing, God forbid, you are no longer there when the time comes to implement your promise?”

“His reply was astounding”. He said, “My friend, my word in Pakistan will be like the word of God. No one will go back on it.”

How did both Dharmic and Muslim people know they'd be unsafe living under the government of another religion? In Pakistan there are still Sikhs including Harcharan Singh

 

[Aupmanyav]

Is there a second?

 

[ronki23]

Is there a second?

Other prominent Sikhs are Inspector Amarjeet Singh of Pakistan Rangers and Lance-naik Behram Singh of Pakistan Coast Guard.[16]

Ramesh Singh Arora became the first Sikh member of Provincial Assembly of the Punjab of Pakistan after he was nominated by the Pakistan Muslim League (N) (PML (N)).[19] Another Sikh, Dr. Suran Singh has been nominated to the Khyber Pakhtunkhwa Assembly by the Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf following the 2013 elections.[20]

I have read you get 'GurMandirs' where Sri Guru Granth Sahib and idols of Sikh Gurus are placed amongst Hindu deities. Apparently these are prevalent in the Sindi community?

http://satyanarayanmandir.org/aboutmandir.html

Same as Manikaran Sahib?

Also, Sikhs did not like when Baba Narayan Bhajan read the Sri Guru Granth Sahib and drew a Swastika on a page. This was in Pakistan I believe

 

[Aupmanyav]

Well, I am sure Sikhs in Pakistan will do whatever their duty is and would not be found wanting. If fighting sikhs in Indian army becomes their duty, then they would do that too. After all, they are Pakistanis. Same for Muslims in Indian Army. South Asians have a strong sense of 'dharma', 'fard'.

Company Quartermaster Havildar Abdul Hamid, Paramvir Chakra,
Brigadier Mohammad Usman, Mahavir Chakra,
Porter Mohammad Ismail, Mahavir Chakra,
Group Captain Zafar Ali Shah, Vir Chakra,
Lt. General Mohammad Ahmad Zaki, Vir Chakra,
Grenadier Rafiq Khan, Vir Chakra, etc.

 

[ronki23]

Well, I am sure Sikhs in Pakistan will do whatever their duty is and would not be found wanting. If fighting sikhs in Indian army becomes their duty, then they would do that too. After all, they are Pakistanis. Same for Muslims in Indian Army. South Asians have a strong sense of 'dharma', 'fard'.

Company Quartermaster Havildar Abdul Hamid, Paramvir Chakra,
Brigadier Mohammad Usman, Mahavir Chakra,
Porter Mohammad Ismail, Mahavir Chakra,
Group Captain Zafar Ali Shah, Vir Chakra,
Lt. General Mohammad Ahmad Zaki, Vir Chakra,
Grenadier Rafiq Khan, Vir Chakra, etc.

did you read the bit about Guru Granth Sahib being read in Sindhi Mandirs / the Pakistani Sikhs outrage over the swastika being painted on it?

I didn't even think there were that many Sikhs in Sindh of both countries

By the way, I may be coming to Mumbai in the next 3 weeks. Any notable Gurdwara or Mandirs for first timers to India?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Of course, many Sindhis rever Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Nothing surprising in it. What Sikhs do anywhere (in India or abroad) should be of no concern to Hindus, only that they should obey the law of the land. One does not need to be a Sikh to rever Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Don't know much about Gurudwaras, but of course, the Siddhi Vinayak Ganesha temple, and the Mahalakshmi temple.

 

[ronki23]

Of course, many Sindhis rever Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Nothing surprising in it. What Sikhs do anywhere (in India or abroad) should be of no concern to Hindus, only that they should obey the law of the land. One does not need to be a Sikh to rever Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Don't know much about Gurudwaras, but of course, the Siddhi Vinayak Ganesha temple, and the Mahalakshmi temple.

What I meant to say was that I didn't think there was a notable Sikh population in Sindh for co-worship and the Sikhs felt it was rude for an unbaptised to read the Guru Granth Sahib let alone paint on it.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So, what are sikhs going to do? Check all Hindu homes where Sri Guru Granth Sahib is revered and see it they have a swastika or Om or Jai Sri Ram or Namah Shivaya or Jai Mata Di written on its cover?

 

[ronki23]

Hello, I have been speaking to my Uncle Jay Lakhani (the first Hindu tutor at Eton) and here is what he says about Sikhism and Hinduism

Guru Nanak the founder was a Hindu .. he has offered a more reformed view of Hinduism suited to the people in his times.. Hinduism allows such reformation and evolution in religion. His son who started the udasi movement relinked sikhism with Hinduism but the sikh council then declared that as not BEING SIKHISM... Such divisions are quite common in any group.. same is seen in the swaminarayan movement and suni shia in islam... It is a pity that with Indira gandhi intruding on the golden temple a division between hindus and sikhs have become visible.. modi is trying his best to cement the relationship but not easy....
Sikh religion is a reform movement within Hinduism that believes in God as sagun but nirakar. This is nothing new within Hinduism.. Arya Samaj promotes the same idea of one god but without form. Then Hinduism also has the idea of God as nirgun and nirakar .. that too is Hinduism.. Here there is not even the word God.. it is replaced with term Nirgun and Nirakar Brahman (a principle and not a person.. no form or no attribute either! ) See how broad Hinduism is? The fact that Guru Nanak said I am neither Hindu nor Muslim is asserting that he does not like prescriptive religion - that too is acceptable in our tradition. For example I do not like to go and tinkle bells or crack coconuts in temples nor do I see god in images but see god in all humanity... does it make me any less hindu?

I do not understand the terms in bold.What are Sagun,Nirankar and Nirgun?
It also goes back to the question of the difference between Hinduism and Sanatan Dharma as Arya Samaj is a school of Hinduism that wants to be known differently to Sanatan Dharma; perhaps Sikhism indeed is a school of Hinduism that is neither Sanatan Dharma nor Arya Samaj (just like Jainism and Buddhism). Although Sri Guru Granth Sahib says

'He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed.'

yet Sikhs believe is formless and does not have incarnations- a contradiction confirmed by,

'I do not accept Ganesha as important. I do not meditate on Krishna, neither on Vishnu. I do not hear them and do not recognize them. My love is with the Lotus feet of God. He is my protector, the Supreme Lord. I am dust of his Lotus feet.'

 

[ronki23]

Hi, i've read this about the proposal of a Sikh nation before the partition of India

in March 1947 the Muslims started large-scale violence, mainly against Sikhs but also against Hindus, in the Muslim-majority districts of northern Punjab. Yet at the end of that year more Muslims had been killed in East Punjab than Hindus and Sikhs together in West Punjab

Partition of India - Wikipedia

The British leaders had asked Sardar Baldev Singh to stay behind because the wanted to propose to him that if Sikhs were not ready to enter into the agreement with Muslims, then the Sikhs could be given an independent state which extended from Panipat to Nanakana Sahib with extended excess up-to the seashore. The Britishers were ready to station 25,000 British troops and war equipment for ten years and provide help in the administration provided the Sikhs agreed to provide 50,000 soldiers be stationed at Singapore and other colonies to help the Britishers for the next ten years. After ten years the agreement could be reconsidered. Through this agreement the administration and defense of independent Sikhland would have been ensured and there would have been no need to enter into an agreement with either India or Pakistan for the purposes of their administration and defense. Even Muslim League had agreed this proposal because it would give then strong buffer state between Pakistan and India. It was also in the interest British empire as they would still have their feet in this sub-continent. But was unfortunate that there was no leader among the Sikhs with political vision foresight who could see the benefits such an arrangement and demand independent Homeland for the Sikhs.

https://www.quora.com/Sikhism-What-...munities-independent-anti-partition-of-Punjab

I would also like to know about the economic boom of India. You say it WASN'T down to Manmohan Singh? Because Sikhs would still be poor like the rest of India had it not been for Congress' reforms

Finally, is it true that non Sikhs are not allowed to get married in Gurdwara? Does this mean that Sikh-Hindu weddings are almost always conversions to Sikhism? Do you not get Sikh bride/groom getting married in Mandir (I wouldn't mind a Sikh Punjabi wife )

 

[ronki23]

I only recently found out that the 1986 Sarbat Khalsa demanded Khalistan