Confused about Sikhism/Hinduism differences

[ronki23]

Yes, Arya Samaj was a sorry divisive development in Hinduism.

additionally, what's your view on what the Doctor said in that the 1984 riots were 'opportunistic'?

Did he mean that they were not grief over Gandhi's death? Did the rioters know the police wouldn't do anything? How did they know?

The Hindu Punjabi of Arya Samaj was a general in the Indian army during Indo-China war and he's 82 now so I wouldn't be surprised if he was involved in 1984.
The Doctor is a Parsi

I'm not too fond of Hindu Punjabis as I know of another family who say they're a branch of Hinduism and brand Bhindranwale a terrorist.

But they do have a point, which a Sikh brother has yet to answer; why did Baba Gurditta and Baba Sri Chand and another son choose Hinduism? Baba Gurditta and another were TOLD to help Baba Sri Chand

 

[Aupmanyav]

Perhaps you did not read my post carefully. In my view Arya Samaj is divisive. The Indian constitution is secular. So, no surprise, many officers and men would be Arya Samajis.

 

[ronki23]

Why are they divisive? What have they done wrong for them to have bad blood with Sikhs?

Their beliefs look pretty good but I don't know what they did wrong?

And with the 1984 riots, how did those responsible know police would not stop them? Why did they decide to loot Sikh businesses?

I disagree with Dr about the Indian army having to be sent in because Harmandir Sahib was MEANT to be a fortress-look at Sikh history. The problem is they went in on the day of Guru Arjun Dev's martyrdom and didn't let civilians escape

 

[ronki23]

And I disagree with 1984 being a small event in history, in Britain our Sikhs go to Trafalgar Square every first Sunday of June AND Modi said 3000 victims' relatives will be paid 5 Lakh each

 

[Aupmanyav]

Why did they decide to loot Sikh businesses?

I never heard about that. You said Dayanand derided Guru Nanak. Why would Sikhs like that?

Well, foreign Sikhs may do whatever they like. They are irrelevant to India. Some compensation or other is given in India to support people who have faced misfortune. It could be communal disturbance, ethnic cleansing, flood, famine or any other. I do not see anything wrong in that.

 

[ronki23]

I never heard about that. You said Dayanand derided Guru Nanak. Why would Sikhs like that?

Well, foreign Sikhs may do whatever they like. They are irrelevant to India. Some compensation or other is given in India to support people who have faced misfortune. It could be communal disturbance, ethnic cleansing, flood, famine or any other. I do not see anything wrong in that.

I never said he derided Guru Nanak, I said for some reason Arya Samaj hates Sikhism

Why are Arya Samaj divisive and why do they hate Sikhs?

and regarding 1984 I did not really understand what the Doctor told me; he said most of those involved were paid thugs from Bihar and UP but Doctor said they were done to steal Sikh businesses away. I am assuming he meant they were not done out of grief for Mrs Gandhi but how did the people responsible know they wouldn't be stopped by the police??

And Doctor said they were printing Khalistan banknotes from Harmandir Sahib and the militants hid under walkways and hatches but the problem with this is that pilgrims were killed by the army so they could have tried another method as the militants did not harm the pilgrims, rather it was the army.
Not to mention you can't blame the. Using Harmandir Sahib in that manner as Sikhism was/is a martial culture in that Harmandir Sahib has been attacked and used as a fortress going back to the Mughal era e.g Banda Singh Bahadur and the Bhai who fought with his head cut off

 

[Aupmanyav]

Ask the Arya Samajis. Perhaps they are giving too much importnce to their won views. In Hinduism, it is customary to respect the views of others.

 

[ronki23]

I went to Mandir on Tuesday and for the first time ever i've seen a Sikh son (obvious by the Dastar) and his sisters (including a cute toddler) praying their with their Mom. I found it funny when the middle one (a girl) said 'look at all the Indians here'

but their father was an Amritdari Sikh and he sat waiting in the car; I can't read minds but i'm guessing it's a Sikh-HP marriage. Of course we have a Gurudwara that he could've gone to- only 5 minutes by car but he didn't. So I see that Sikhs aren't meant to worship in Mandir

I also saw this on a website-it's in Manila

and somewhere else

I hear the Ramgharia Sikhs let out their Gurudwara for Hindu functions, Sikhs don't like Hindus getting married in Gurudwara, and my local Gurudwara served meat in their kitchen.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=366514966772866

Why is this a problem if

a) Sikhs do not discriminate people based on their religion so a Durga puja that Sikhs know in advance about (and hence don't turn up to) should not be a problem

b) Sikhs allow anyone in so why can't people marry in a Gurdwara

c) Jhatka meat is served during Hola Mohalla and Chandi ti Var is played when animals are sacrificed

Also, how can some HPs consider Sri Guru Granth Sahib the fifth Vedas if it says idolatry, Brahma;Vishnu; Shiva and Rama, and rituals are wrong/ un-Sikh in nature?

 

[ronki23]

and why are there still Sikhs like Bapu Surat Singh Khalsa going on hunger strikes to have India free political prisoners? That and Modi (or BJP) paying Rs.5 lakh 3000 families that are victimes?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Sikhs don't like Hindus getting married in Gurudwara, and my local Gurudwara served meat in their kitchen.

I do not think you are correct here. For many Hindus, a Gurudwara is the only temple, whether for birth, death, or marriage.Yes, I have eaten non-vegetarian dishes in a Gurudwara hall, but food was sourced from outside people.

I do not see anything wrong in Modi giving 5 lakh rupees and more (they were given jobs, houses also) to riot-affected sikhs. He paid 20 lakhs to each Kashmiri brahmin family uprooted from the Valley. The government of the time failed to protect them, so what is wrong if Modi tries to compensate? Uttar Pradesh government is trying to help the Muslims affected in the recent communal riots in Saharanpur.

I do not think government of India will free the sikh prisoners. Cases of murder have been proved against them, for example the murder of former Punjab Chief Minister Beant Singh..

 

[ronki23]

I do not think you are correct here. For many Hindus, a Gurudwara is the only temple, whether for birth, death, or marriage.Yes, I have eaten non-vegetarian dishes in a Gurudwara hall, but food was sourced from outside people.

I do not see anything wrong in Modi giving 5 lakh rupees and more (they were given jobs, houses also) to riot-affected sikhs. He paid 20 lakhs to each Kashmiri brahmin family uprooted from the Valley. The government of the time failed to protect them, so what is wrong if Modi tries to compensate? Uttar Pradesh government is trying to help the Muslims affected in the recent communal riots in Saharanpur.

I do not think government of India will free the sikh prisoners. Cases of murder have been proved against them, for example the murder of former Punjab Chief Minister Beant Singh..

I meant that Sikhs complain meat is being served in a hall owned by Gurdwara and it wasn't even the langar hall anyway; it was the 'function' hall. And here are some more sources of anti-Hindu Sikhs

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=372281516198621

Here is another on mixed-faith marriages being a taboo

BBC News - Sikh weddings crashed by protesters objecting to mixed faith marriages

As for the Sikh political prisoners, which ones are they protesting for the release of? Look at how many 'fans' there are on one facebook page:

Sikh Organisation For Prisoners Welfare (SOPW) | Facebook

and this one has even more!

Sikhs for Justice | Facebook

I may be going to India this year (doubt it) but how likely is seeing Sikhs in Mumbai and Rajasthan?

I know one Sikh girl from Delhi who said her family was unaffected by the riots as they lived in a part of Delhi unaffected. She also denies there was ever a proposal for Khalistan in the 40s. But one girl does not represent a community so i'd like to see how Sikhs REALLY view Hindus and India by going there myself (Mumbai and Haridwar but also trying to go to Amritsar).They can't ALL be Khalistani expats living in Canada and UK right?

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. but how likely is seeing Sikhs in Mumbai and Rajasthan?

What a question! Sikhs are everywhere, in India and abroad. We have 20 million. Sri Gangnagar is a sikh majority district in Rajasthan. Where will you cross the Indo-Pakistan border? Will you come on a tourist visa or just infiltrate clandestinely into India? What preparations should we do for your reception in India?

 

[ronki23]

What a question! Sikhs are everywhere, in India and abroad. We have 20 million. Sri Gangnagar is a sikh majority district in Rajasthan. Where will you cross the Indo-Pakistan border? Will you come on a tourist visa or just infiltrate clandestinely into India? What preparations should we do for your reception in India?

How do the Pakistani cricket and hockey team enter India? Same way I would haha

You can see from the facebook posts how these Sikhs go well into the tens of thousands online. And remember it's the youths who post; you can double this number or even triple it as those born before 1984 might not use facebook and social media (I mean the ones born in 20s,30s,50s and 50s)

 

[Aupmanyav]

Good, they are welcome to let the steam off on internet. Young people. Pakistani cricket people have not come to India for a long time. Hocket teams come. We miss Pakistani cricketers. Wasim, Ramiz, Zahir Abbas are darlings (I am an old timer), and so is Shahid. I once saw Ramiz crack a fast Century against West Indies. He was magnificent. But then, along with any Pakistani team, come the bookies.

 

[ronki23]

Good, they are welcome to let the steam off on internet. Young people. Pakistani cricket people have not come to India for a long time. Hocket teams come. We miss Pakistani cricketers. Wasim, Ramiz, Zahir Abbas are darlings (I am an old timer), and so is Shahid. I once saw Ramiz crack a fast Century against West Indies. He was magnificent. But then, along with any Pakistani team, come the bookies.

Documentary about situation in India, filmed in India

These old Sikhs are still on hunger strike because of political prisoners, Bapu Surat Singh Khalsa and Gurbaksh Singh Khalsa

But why are mixed religion marriages (e.g. HP and Sikh in gurdwara) a taboo? And the same goes for Durga Puja in a Ramgharia temple; it was advertised in advance and they booked the hall

Sikhs say they want to preserve their religion and keep it authentic.
But if this theory is used with race e.g. whites thinking that white race is dying out or Koreans thinking this way; or Europe being fearful of the rise in Islam, then it's seen as xenophobia

 

[Aupmanyav]

These old Sikhs are still on hunger strike because of political prisoners, Bapu Surat Singh Khalsa and Gurbaksh Singh Khalsa.

There are no Sikh political prisoners in India. There are Sikhs who have been convicted for murders. No leniency can be shown to these people, whatever they say in media in India or abroad. If there are some secessionists, that too is a crime against the nation. I do not think there are any other in Indian jails. There is a government in Punjab which represents the majority view. It has been elected by the people in a fair democratic election. If there is a dissent, that should be solved by democratic means (get a majority in an election). That is how democracy works. A deranged minority should not expect to brow-beat India into submission.

 

[ronki23]

There are no Sikh political prisoners in India. There are Sikhs who have been convicted for murders. No leniency can be shown to these people, whatever they say in media in India or abroad. If there are some secessionists, that too is a crime against the nation. I do not think there are any other in Indian jails. There is a popularly elected democratic government in Punjab. If there is a dissent, that should be solved by democratic means (get a majority in an election). No one can force India to accept the views of a deranged minority.

Have you not seen this video I just posted? It's based in Punjab

And the 'Widows Colony' and movie about 1984 say that thousands of Sikh men have 'disappeared'

 

[Aupmanyav]

They may have died in the turbulent years. And who were they? Peace-loving people suspected of being police informers or terrorists who fought against the police. Who killed them? Indian police (in Punjab (mostly Sikhs) or Secessionists and terrorists from Pakistan? What is the proof? Why should the finger be pointed towards India?

 

[ronki23]

They may have died in the turbulent years. And who were they? Peace-loving people suspected of being police informers or terrorists who fought against the police. Who killed them? Indian police (in Punjab (mostly Sikhs) or Secessionists and terrorists from Pakistan? What is the proof? Why should the finger be pointed towards India?

because you yourself said that the Pakistani agents who were part of the Khalistan movement only made up a small fraction of it. So in that case, that small fraction of Pakistanis can't be held responsible for thousands of deaths and disappearances when the victims say the police were responsible

The video says 2097 Sikhs were killed in Amritsar and 1500 are missing; the bodies were chopped up and spread across the district and many were burned on shared funeral pyres in Durgina Mandir. The 5 minute post mortems show many weren't even dead but the police killed them upon finding this out. This was 1993 I believe

 

[Aupmanyav]

Don't say "the victims say". The victims are not there to tell the story. And who counted the deaths? Even a small number of terrorists can cause a lot of murders when they hold sway. What I hear is that at least a same number of Hindus were killed. What the video says is irrelevant. There should be a proof. No, this was not 1993. The disturbance subsided after Operation Blue Star in 1984. You can hear similar stories from Kashmir separatists and Pakistani media. But the fact is that Kashmir also has a fairly elected Hindu-Muslim government with a Hindu Deputy Chief Minister. In a house of 87, 28 members of PDP and 25 members of the Hindu party BJP, making a total of 53 (which makes a majority with 61%).