Confucianism’s 大学 Dà xué ~ As I See It ~ part 1

[shunyadragon]

Interesting, an attack, discussion not possible I guess, thanks......Bottomline, does the original translation, in the OP, that the OP has the translation into english of, translate to "God"?

You yourself seem to be alluding to in not translating as such, and if that is the case, then the translation provided is wrong. Now why is it wrong, is it lack of knowledge of the traditional CHinese, or was there another reason. If it is a translation error, so be it, should be corrected for correct translation. If there are other reasons, what are they. I an REALLY big on correct translations. If one makes mistakes it should be pointed out. If it says "God" ok, that's fine. If it does not, it should be corrected, not excepted.

No attack . . .

You have provided nothing that would support your assertions. I do not believe there is anything in the ancient Chinese writings that would translate "God" as 'knowledge.'

 

[Wu Wei]

No attack . . .

You have provided nothing that would support your assertions. I do not believe there is anything in the ancient Chinese writings that would translate "God" as 'knowledge.'

Does it translate to "God" that was the original question, in my very first post in this thread, to you actually, that has yet to be answered?

 

[shunyadragon]

Does it translate to "God" that was the original question, in my very first post in this thread, to you actually, that has yet to be answered?

Actually on closer examination you are correct in this reference. In this case it is knowledge.

 

[Wu Wei]

Actually on closer examination you are correct in this reference. In this case it is knowledge.

Thank you

 

[PureX]

To the degree? to vague to be real. All the writings of Taoism state is that if you claim to know the 'Tao than you do not know the Tao.'

The tao is not understood as a deity. It is understood as the 'way of being'. The way existence, exists. It is also, as you pointed out, considered beyond the reach of human knowledge/understanding. But not beyond our capacity to embody/fulfill. However, unlike nearly all religions, we do not achieve this fulfillment by trying. But rather by not trying.

Taoism is not a theology nor a religion. It is more properly labeled a philosophy.

There is no specifically known date for the beginning of Taoism, and Lao Tzu may not be a historical figure, regardless there is no known record the Confucius stated he was a Taoist.

Taoist philosophy had permeated eastern thought by the time of Confucius the way Greek philosophy has permeated western thought. It underpins Confucianism, Buddhism, Shinto, and to some degree even Hinduism. But it does so through two very different ideas. One is the non-deity/profound agnosticism concept, seen in early Confucianism and Buddhism, and the other is in fulfilling the natural human need/propensity for superstition based demigods, as in Shinto and Hindi religion.

I lived in in China for nine years and fortune telling, superstitions, and spiritual beings are alive and well in Taoism.

Yes, there is an aspect of superstition based religiosity associated with Taoism, but that is because Taoism does not reject nor negate these. It is not because Taoism foster or promotes it. Taoist philosophy simply accepts that these superstitions and the gods generated for them are part of humanity, and therefor part of the way we humans exist: i.e., the 'tao of man'. Because Taoism does not reject these religiou practices and superstitions, there are "Taoists" that that engage in them.

Also, the I-Ching, a very old "oracle" based on Taoist principals, has for a very long time promoted the idea that humans could divine the future by learning how to "read the Tao". Again, we humans are superstitious creatures, and so are given to these sorts of superstitions and 'magical' solutions, and Taoism accepts and acknowledges this. But it does not promote it.

If Lao Tzu existed he was a contemporary of Confucius, and not predating him.

Lao Tzu did not invent Taoism. The I-Ching far predates Confucius and is based on a very sophisticated application of Taoist principals. So Those principals go back to well before even that.

 

[Thea]

Please accept my contrite apology for being an ***. I don’t have a decent excuse, although being in stage 4 lockdown in isolation for months has made me a bit tetchy.

I’m usually quite pleasant.

Welcome to RF

Thank you for your welcoming, much appreciated. Ha, ha, it wasn’t that bad, just not the sort of things I am into. It is lovely of you to apologise. I wish you strength in what sounds a very difficult situation. I hope things will get better soon.

 

[Thea]

The following is an interesting poem written by a woman that addresses the problem of violence against women. The women's poetry of the Bronze Age demonstrates that human nature has not changed in human history, and even relates well today. These are my translations which differ from other Western translations that are grounded in Victorian era translations that did not recognize that they were written by women

From the 《詩經, 诗经》shījīng – Book of Poetry


The Book of Poetry is the first of the works compiled by Confucius himself. It consists of 305 pieces written from about the beginning of the Western Zhou in 1046 BC to the end of the Spring and Autumn Period about 476 BC.

野有死麇 yĕ yǒu sǐ jūn: A deer is slain


野有死麇 , 白茅包之 . A deer is slain, in white grass wrapped.

yĕ yǒu sǐ jūn, bái máo bāo zhī.

有女怀春, 吉士诱之. A maid longs for love, by the hunter tempted,

yǒu nǚ huái chūn, jí shì yòu zhī,

林有樕朴, 野有死鹿. He hews the forest, another deer is slain.

lín yǒu pŭ sù, yĕ yǒu sǐ lù.


白茅纯束, 有女如玉 A maid like jade, in white grass adorned.

bái máo cún shù, yǒu nǚ rú yù.

舒而脱脱兮, 无感我帨兮, Approach softly, the waist cloth untouched.

shū ĕr tuōtuō xī, wú yŭn wǒ shuì xī,

无使尨也吠. Be gentle and not aggressive.

wú shǐ méng yè fèi.

I would love to hear more about what you call “the jade culture”, and about the women that wrote the poetry. And also about what you call “jade attributes”, and the problems with their translation. That would be great.

 

[shunyadragon]

Thank you for your reply. I refer back to the replies of shunyadragon.

@Wu Wei is correct the translation is better for 'knowledge' than 'God' for zhī.

 

[Thea]

@Wu Wei is correct the translation is better for 'knowledge' than 'God' for zhī.

Thank you very much for your info. ‘As I See It’:

awareness of God.
至 zhì 善 shàn 知 zhī

至善 ‘ultimate goodness’
知 ‘to be aware’

 

[Wu Wei]

Thank you very much for your info. ‘As I See It’:

awareness of God.
至 zhì 善 shàn 知 zhī

至善 ‘ultimate goodness’
知 ‘to be aware’

You may see it that way, but it is not right

至 zhì = to
善 shàn = good
知 zhī = know

至善 Zhì shàn = Perfection
知 Zhī = Know

add
善知 Shànzhī = Best Knowledge

Combining characters can change meaning, but there is nothing there about God, sorry.

I don't have a problem with God, if it were there, but it isn't. There are tons of mistranslations and misunderstandings when it comes to translations in Chinese to English and that is what I have a problem with

I do have a question for you though, when you are saying God, what God are you referring to?

 

[Wu Wei]

The Great Learning < Web Link
The Great Learning (Dà Xué 大学) has long had independent status as the shortest work in the Confucian Canon, although it is also a chapter in the Book of Rites (Lǐ Jì 礼记), one of the longest works in the Canon.

1. What the Great Learning teaches is: to illustrate illustrious virtue; to renovate the people; and to rest in the highest excellence.

2. The point where to rest being known, the object of pursuit is then determined; and, that being determined, a calm unperturbedness may be attained to.

3. To that calmness there will succeed a tranquil repose. In that repose there may be careful deliberation, and that deliberation will be followed by the attainment of the desired end.

4. Things have their root and their branches. Affairs have their end and their beginning. To know what is first and what is last will lead near to what is taught in the Great Learning.

5. The ancients who wished to illustrate illustrious virtue throughout the kingdom, first ordered well their own States.

6. Wishing to order well their States, they first regulated their families. Wishing to regulate their families, they first cultivated their persons.

7. Wishing to cultivate their persons, they first rectified their hearts. Wishing to rectify their hearts, they first sought to be sincere in their thoughts.

8. Wishing to be sincere in their thoughts, they first extended to the utmost their knowledge. Such extension of knowledge lay in the investigation of things.

9. Things being investigated, knowledge became complete. Their knowledge being complete, their thoughts were sincere.

10. Their thoughts being sincere, their hearts were then rectified. Their hearts being rectified, their persons were cultivated.

11. Their persons being cultivated, their families were regulated. Their families being regulated, their States were rightly governed.

12. Their States being rightly governed, the whole kingdom was made tranquil and happy.

13. From the Son of Heaven down to the mass of the people, all must consider the cultivation of the person the root of everything besides.

14. It cannot be, when the root is neglected, that what should spring from it will be well ordered.

15. It never has been the case that what was of great importance has been slightly cared for, and, at the same time, that what was of slight importance has been greatly cared for.

Note: "Son of Heaven" is a reference to the Emperor of China

Also found here

Daxue 大學

The Great Learning

The Great Learning and Doctrine of Means

 

[atanu]

Knowing the Root
知本 zhī běn

~~~~~<>~~~~~
1.1
~~~~~<>~~~~~

The teachings for your subject of study, are :
大学 Dà xué 之 zhī 道 dào

shine the radiant inner light,
在 zài 明 míng 明 míng 德 dé

love people,
在 zài 亲 qīn 民 mín

come to rest in awareness of God.
在 zài 止 zhǐ 于 yú 至 zhì 善 shàn 知 zhī

~~~~~<>~~~~~
1.2
~~~~~<>~~~~~

Come to rest, after that it’s God’s will;
止 zhǐ 而后 有 érhòu yǒu 定 dìng;

God’s will, after that it’s possible to calm down;
定 dìng 而后 能 érhòu néng 静 jìng;

calmed down, after that it’s possible to be peace-loving;
静 jìng 而后 能 érhòu néng 安 ān;

peace-loving, after that it’s possible to think things through;
安 ān 而后 能 érhòu néng 虑 lǜ;

thought things through, after that you are ready.
虑 lǜ 而后 能 érhòu néng 得 dé.

Thank you for this.

Whether these specify God or no God, the key point is that if I let my ego rest, the '--------' (whatever the root is) will take care of me.
...

 

[stvdv]

Welcome to RF,
Thank you for sharing this wonderful text

Knowing the Root
知本 zhī běn
~~~~~<>~~~~~
1.1
~~~~~<>~~~~~
The teachings for your subject of study, are :
shine the radiant inner light,
love people,
come to rest in awareness of God.

Wonderful text, covers it all for me. Eastern Wisdom always make my heart jump in joy, just reading it

Come to rest, after that it’s God’s will;
God’s will, after that it’s possible to calm down;
calmed down, after that it’s possible to be peace-loving;
peace-loving, after that it’s possible to think things through;
thought things through, after that you are ready.

Definitely true...I tried many times to do it my way, and get instant depressed and a restless mind, but knowing "I'm not yet ready"

 

[alsome]

I see that the thread doesn't solve anything, does it ? Compared to what ? "ultimate goodness" whatever that means, it could describe "death", couldn't it ?

 

[Thea]

[/QUOTE]

The Great Learning < Web Link
The Great Learning (Dà Xué 大学) has long had independent status as the shortest work in the Confucian Canon, although it is also a chapter in the Book of Rites (Lǐ Jì 礼记), one of the longest works in the Canon.

1. What the Great Learning teaches is: to illustrate illustrious virtue; to renovate the people; and to rest in the highest excellence.

2. The point where to rest being known, the object of pursuit is then determined; and, that being determined, a calm unperturbedness may be attained to.

3. To that calmness there will succeed a tranquil repose. In that repose there may be careful deliberation, and that deliberation will be followed by the attainment of the desired end.

4. Things have their root and their branches. Affairs have their end and their beginning. To know what is first and what is last will lead near to what is taught in the Great Learning.

5. The ancients who wished to illustrate illustrious virtue throughout the kingdom, first ordered well their own States.

6. Wishing to order well their States, they first regulated their families. Wishing to regulate their families, they first cultivated their persons.

7. Wishing to cultivate their persons, they first rectified their hearts. Wishing to rectify their hearts, they first sought to be sincere in their thoughts.

8. Wishing to be sincere in their thoughts, they first extended to the utmost their knowledge. Such extension of knowledge lay in the investigation of things.

9. Things being investigated, knowledge became complete. Their knowledge being complete, their thoughts were sincere.

10. Their thoughts being sincere, their hearts were then rectified. Their hearts being rectified, their persons were cultivated.

11. Their persons being cultivated, their families were regulated. Their families being regulated, their States were rightly governed.

12. Their States being rightly governed, the whole kingdom was made tranquil and happy.

13. From the Son of Heaven down to the mass of the people, all must consider the cultivation of the person the root of everything besides.

14. It cannot be, when the root is neglected, that what should spring from it will be well ordered.

15. It never has been the case that what was of great importance has been slightly cared for, and, at the same time, that what was of slight importance has been greatly cared for.

Note: "Son of Heaven" is a reference to the Emperor of China

Also found here

Daxue 大學

The Great Learning

The Great Learning and Doctrine of Means

Thank you for posting the James Legge translation.

 

[Thea]

Thank you for this.

Whether these specify God or no God, the key point is that if I let my ego rest, the '--------' (whatever the root is) will take care of me.
...

Oh, thank you for your lovely response, much appreciated. I agree, let’s not get bogged down with our differences, but see what we have in common. I see the same key point you see.

 

[Thea]

Welcome to RF,
Thank you for sharing this wonderful text


Wonderful text, covers it all for me. Eastern Wisdom always make my heart jump in joy, just reading it


Definitely true...I tried many times to do it my way, and get instant depressed and a restless mind, but knowing "I'm not yet ready"

Thank you very much for your very insightful response, much appreciated. Very insightful indeed. I think the poem ties in well with your signature actually. But most of all I recognise when you say “makes my heart jump”, because I do love the text.

 

[Thea]

I see that the thread doesn't solve anything, does it ? Compared to what ? "ultimate goodness" whatever that means, it could describe "death", couldn't it ?

Thank you for your response. I called the thread “大学 ~As I See It~“ , as it is merely my take on it. So in my view nothing needs to be resolved.

 

[Thea]

Welcome to RF,
Thank you for sharing this wonderful text


Wonderful text, covers it all for me. Eastern Wisdom always make my heart jump in joy, just reading it


Definitely true...I tried many times to do it my way, and get instant depressed and a restless mind, but knowing "I'm not yet ready"

Oh, I forgot to say thank you for welcoming me, ha, ha, thank you

 

[stvdv]

Thank you very much for your info. ‘As I See It’:

awareness of God.
至 zhì 善 shàn 知 zhī

至善 ‘ultimate goodness’
知 ‘to be aware’

Follow your , can't go wrong with that

Sanathana Dharma describes God as:
Sat Chit Anandam = Being Awareness Bliss
Hence I felt a good connection reading your "As I See It"

Also, can we put God in words, or is God beyond words?
I need to read between the lines, to get glimpses