Confucianism’s 大学 Dà xué ~ As I See It ~ part 1

[Thea]

... if you claim to know the 'Tao than you do not know the Tao.'

I lived in in China for nine years and fortune telling, superstitions, and spiritual beings are alive and well in Taoism.

Lao-Tzu
... in religious Taoism, he is understood as a deity.

... Tao, the creative and binding force which runs through the universe,

MODERN-DAY SCHOLARSHIP... MAINTAINING THE WORK WAS CREATED BY MULTIPLE AUTHORS UNDER THE NAME LAOZI.

... Confucianism which, in its original form, was closer to Taoism.

Thank you, great info! Totally in line with what I have been finding out as well.

 

[shunyadragon]

Thank you very much for your welcoming, much appreciated. I agree that “simple awareness” is very helpful and a “loving way” is very important to me. Have a nice day, and I hope to hear more from you.

The following is an interesting poem written by a woman that addresses the problem of violence against women. The women's poetry of the Bronze Age demonstrates that human nature has not changed in human history, and even relates well today. These are my translations which differ from other Western translations that are grounded in Victorian era translations that did not recognize that they were written by women

From the 《詩經, 诗经》shījīng – Book of Poetry


The Book of Poetry is the first of the works compiled by Confucius himself. It consists of 305 pieces written from about the beginning of the Western Zhou in 1046 BC to the end of the Spring and Autumn Period about 476 BC.

野有死麇 yĕ yǒu sǐ jūn: A deer is slain


野有死麇 , 白茅包之 . A deer is slain, in white grass wrapped.

yĕ yǒu sǐ jūn, bái máo bāo zhī.

有女怀春, 吉士诱之. A maid longs for love, by the hunter tempted,

yǒu nǚ huái chūn, jí shì yòu zhī,

林有樕朴, 野有死鹿. He hews the forest, another deer is slain.

lín yǒu pŭ sù, yĕ yǒu sǐ lù.


白茅纯束, 有女如玉 A maid like jade, in white grass adorned.

bái máo cún shù, yǒu nǚ rú yù.

舒而脱脱兮, 无感我帨兮, Approach softly, the waist cloth untouched.

shū ĕr tuōtuō xī, wú yŭn wǒ shuì xī,

无使尨也吠. Be gentle and not aggressive.

wú shǐ méng yè fèi.

 

[Wu Wei]

Oh, how I do love your answer. This is very similar to my line of thinking. Thank you very much for replying.

Go with what you want, but I still disagree.

There was no western view of "God", in China in the Spring and Autumn Period (771 to 476 BC) in China. Lets not forget we are talking about Confucius (Kǒng Fūzǐ [551–479 BC]). No verifiable contact with the west until the second and third centuries AD, with Rome. There is a possible Western contact in the form of Greek artisans in the 3rd century BC, but we are still talking over 150 years after Confucius died

 

[Thea]

The following is an interesting poem written by a woman that addresses the problem of violence against women. The women's poetry of the Bronze Age demonstrates that human nature has not changed in human history, and even relates well today. These are my translations which differ from other Western translations that are grounded in Victorian era translations that did not recognize that they were written by women

From the 《詩經, 诗经》shījīng – Book of Poetry


The Book of Poetry is the first of the works compiled by Confucius himself. It consists of 305 pieces written from about the beginning of the Western Zhou in 1046 BC to the end of the Spring and Autumn Period about 476 BC.

野有死麇 yĕ yǒu sǐ jūn: A deer is slain


野有死麇 , 白茅包之 . A deer is slain, in white grass wrapped.

yĕ yǒu sǐ jūn, bái máo bāo zhī.

有女怀春, 吉士诱之. A maid longs for love, by the hunter tempted,

yǒu nǚ huái chūn, jí shì yòu zhī,

林有樕朴, 野有死鹿. He hews the forest, another deer is slain.

lín yǒu pŭ sù, yĕ yǒu sǐ lù.


白茅纯束, 有女如玉 A maid like jade, in white grass adorned.

bái máo cún shù, yǒu nǚ rú yù.

舒而脱脱兮, 无感我帨兮, Approach softly, the waist cloth untouched.

shū ĕr tuōtuō xī, wú yŭn wǒ shuì xī,

无使尨也吠. Be gentle and not aggressive.

wú shǐ méng yè fèi.

That is a beautiful verse with great wisdom in it. I have copied it to be read again.

(P.S. I cannot comment on the technical site, my knowledge is almost none existent. I would have to look up all the words in a classical dictionary. Lol, it took me almost a year to make my version of the 大学. So please forgive me for not doing this for this beautiful poem, as I am currently translating the 中庸 . I have full faith in your translation.)

 

[Wu Wei]

That is a beautiful verse with great wisdom in it. I have copied it to be read again.

(P.S. I cannot comment on the technical site, my knowledge is almost none existent. I would have to look up all the words in a classical dictionary. Lol, it took me almost a year to make my version of the 大学. So please forgive me for not doing this for this beautiful poem, as I am currently translating the 中庸 . I have full faith in your translation.)

Are you trying to translate Classical Chinese, without training in Classical Chinese?

 

[Howard Is]

Thank you for your reply. The text was written approximately 2500 years ago, and it is attributed to Confucius.

Please accept my contrite apology for being an ***. I don’t have a decent excuse, although being in stage 4 lockdown in isolation for months has made me a bit tetchy.

I’m usually quite pleasant.

Welcome to RF

 

[shunyadragon]

That is a beautiful verse with great wisdom in it. I have copied it to be read again.

(P.S. I cannot comment on the technical site, my knowledge is almost none existent. I would have to look up all the words in a classical dictionary. Lol, it took me almost a year to make my version of the 大学. So please forgive me for not doing this for this beautiful poem, as I am currently translating the 中庸 . I have full faith in your translation.)

Your translation is OK and it is from the 《詩經, 诗经》shījīng – Book of Poetry

 

[shunyadragon]

Are you trying to translate Classical Chinese, without training in Classical Chinese?

Actually for general translations both okay, because there are numerous transposition publications available from old Chinese to New Chinese available. Also the simplified New Chinese characters did not change the meaning they just made writing, printing and reading easier

I learned the old characters, because I was studying the original writings, and there some characters no longer used today, and the sublety of the meaning in some references like the traditional characters used for jade culture.

 

[shunyadragon]

Go with what you want, but I still disagree.

There was no western view of "God", in China in the Spring and Autumn Period (771 to 476 BC) in China. Lets not forget we are talking about Confucius (Kǒng Fūzǐ [551–479 BC]). No verifiable contact with the west until the second and third centuries AD, with Rome. There is a possible Western contact in the form of Greek artisans in the 3rd century BC, but we are still talking over 150 years after Confucius died

I do not think there is as much a disagreement here as you propose. I do not think anyone at present is proposing that Confucius was referring to a Western anthropomorphic God in this context.

 

[Wu Wei]

Actually for general translations both okay, because there are numerous transposition publications available from old Chinese to New Chinese available. Also the simplified New Chinese characters did not change the meaning they just made writing, printing and reading easier

I learned the old characters, because I was studying the original writings, and there some characters no longer used today, and the sublety of the meaning in some references like the traditional characters used for jade culture.

Actually not in all cases. THere are classical characters that, if you look at it with only a knowledge of simplified, that can change the entire meaning

My wife use to translate traditional Chinese for Chinese people who only knew simplified, who had tried to translate things o their own and there were many times she said the had it all wrong based on one character

 

[shunyadragon]

I disagree I believe, talking Confucius it is "Great Ultimate" which it would be more along the Taoist view of "The Way" not God

It is best to not draw conclusions concerning the 'God' of Confucius. Lao Tzu if he existed was a contemporary of Confucius, and he made no reference to Lao Tzu nor Taoism. His primary work was a compilation of history, cultural and poetry works from the kingdoms all of which were written before Lao Tzu and Taoism.

 

[Wu Wei]

I do not think there is as much a disagreement here as you propose. I do not think anyone at present is proposing that Confucius was referring to a Western anthropomorphic God in this context.

His translation most definitely says "God"

 

[Wu Wei]

It is best to not draw conclusions concerning the 'God' of Confucius. Lao Tzu if he existed was a contemporary of Confucius, and he made no reference to Lao Tzu nor Taoism. His primary work was a compilation of history, cultural and poetry works from the kingdoms all of which were written before Lao Tzu and Taoism.

I also stated there was no view of a "Western God" during the Spring and Autumn Period. And I still do not see that translation as saying "God" or "Tao" for that matter. I see "knowledge", which would be more inline with Confucius IMO

 

[shunyadragon]

His translation most definitely says "God"

Yrs, it says "God," but I do not believe we can define the use of "God" in the compilations collected by Confucius. Actually, particularly the poetry in the 《詩經, 诗经》shījīng – Book of Poetry is not written by Confucius, but compiled by him from works he collected from the different kingdoms.

 

[Wu Wei]

It is best to not draw conclusions concerning the 'God' of Confucius. Lao Tzu if he existed was a contemporary of Confucius, and he made no reference to Lao Tzu nor Taoism. His primary work was a compilation of history, cultural and poetry works from the kingdoms all of which were written before Lao Tzu and Taoism.

True, but was "Tao" (道) or way invented by Lao Tzu

It is also best not to draw conclusions that Confucius was speaking of God

 

[Wu Wei]

Yrs, it says "God," but I do not believe we can define the use of "God" in the compilations collected by Confucius. Actually, particularly the poetry in the 《詩經, 诗经》shījīng – Book of Poetry is not written by Confucius, but compiled by him from works he collected from the different kingdoms.

I stand with it was not "God" it was knowledge. I tend to find such translation that reference God questionable. Once read a translation of the I Ching that was referencing God and even the bible, it was complete bollocks and came with a questionable agenda IMO.

 

[shunyadragon]

Actually not in all cases. THere are classical characters that, if you look at it with only a knowledge of simplified, that can change the entire meaning.

I actually already acknowledged this, and it is a fact that that the scholars of China have published traspositions from Old Chinese to Simplified which are reasonable. It is the subtle translations like in the references to jade attributes. which need more careful translations. Nonetheless God in the old Chinese used in the poetry has not changed. It is simply the word for God in Chinese.

My wife use to translate traditional Chinese for Chinese people who only knew simplified, who had tried to translate things on their own and there were many times she said the had it all wrong based on one character

. . . but as I stated before the scholars of Chinese have made numerous transpostions of ancient literature that are adequate. All translations have limits of interpretation particularly in the poetry, including my own translations.

 

[shunyadragon]

True, but was "Tao" (道) or way invented by Lao Tzu

It is also best not to draw conclusions that Confucius was speaking of God

Maybe yes and maybe no. Based on my assessment of the 《道德经》Tao Te Ching it is a progressive work probably dating back to the writings on the Turtle shells. In the commentary we have the views of 老子 Lao Tzu (?) were not well accepted, though his astrology is very traditional.

 

[shunyadragon]

I stand with it was not "God" it was knowledge. I tend to find such translation that reference God questionable. Once read a translation of the I Ching that was referencing God and even the bible, it was complete bollocks and came with a questionable agenda IMO.

I believe your agenda is a s questionable and bullocks as any. No one here is equating the Western nor the traditional Chinese anthropomorphic God(s) with the God in the literature Confucius compiled.

There is no reference in the ancient texts that "God" translates to 'knowledge.' This interpretation is in contradiction with the reference in the Tao Te Ching "If someone claims to know the Tao it is not the Tao."

 

[Wu Wei]

I believe your agenda is a s questionable and bullocks as any. No one here is equating the Western nor the traditional Chinese anthropomorphic God(s) with the God in the literature Confucius compiled.

There is no reference in the ancient texts that "God" translates to 'knowledge.' This interpretation is in contradiction with the reference in the Tao Te Ching "If someone claims to know the Tao it is not the Tao."

Interesting, an attack, discussion not possible I guess, thanks......Bottomline, does the original translation, in the OP, that the OP has the translation into english of, translate to "God"?

You yourself seem to be alluding to in not translating as such, and if that is the case, then the translation provided is wrong. Now why is it wrong, is it lack of knowledge of the traditional Chinese, or was there another reason. If it is a translation error, so be it, should be corrected for correct translation. If there are other reasons, what are they. I am REALLY big on correct translations. If one makes mistakes it should be pointed out. If it says "God" ok, that's fine. If it does not, it should be corrected, not excepted. You cannot look at western translations, from a western perspective and apply them to what you think it says. There is an entire culture behind what was written and that too needs to be taken into account.