Confession about free exercise of religion

[Erebus]

People of faith have been forced to do things that violate their consciences, such as perform abortions or assist, or provide services for gay marriages.

I'm inclined towards antinatalism. By having children, you're taking a gamble on your child potentially living a life of suffering or inflicting suffering on others. Ultimately, I feel it's better not to have children at all.

Would it make sense for me to pursue a career as a midwife? If I did, should I be allowed to refuse to deliver babies?


While I believe that war is sometimes necessary, I feel that it's far more commonly fought for entirely immoral reasons. I find that I'm against military actions far more often than I'm supportive of them.

Would it make sense for me to pursue a career as a soldier? If I did, should I be allowed to refuse to go into combat?


I could go on with examples but I'm sure you get the point. Some jobs entail duties that might be morally questionable for some people. In these cases, their best course of action is to avoid taking those jobs. Asking for exemptions because of your religious views means you're asking for extra privileges that others don't have.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The biggest threat to religion today is not some other religion, but aggressive secularism that wants to relegate any expression of religion to the privacy of one's home or church, keeping it out of the pubic square.

Secularism does no such thing.

Under a secular system, you would be free to proclaim your religion in the public square, meet and worship with like-minded people, and follow the religiously-informed dictates of your conscience without fear of punishment.

The only things your religion wouldn't be able to do in a secular system:

- be subsidized by the government.
- force non-adherents to live according to its rules.

... but I have to say that I'm happy to see you argue so strongly for religious freedom. The last time we talked about the subject, this was something you opposed. I don't know what caused the change of heart, but I think the change is positive.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

People of faith have been forced to do things that violate their consciences, such as perform abortions or assist, or provide services for gay marriages. Fortunately the Supreme Court is now taking this in hand, and so the pendulum is swinging back again.

Someone who voluntarily takes a job that involves abortion and then is asked to do their job is not exactly "being forced to violate their consience."

As long as they're free to quit and look for a job more to their liking, their freedom of conscience is intact. Someone who refuses to do their job isn't entitled to continued employment in that job.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Asking for exemptions because of your religious views means you're asking for extra privileges that others don't have.

That is my biggest beef with it. Particularly and especially Evangelical Christians want special privileges, rights, and treatments that no one else gets, and they expect and demand them because they are Christian. Even if it due to poor decision making on their part (don't go into business servivng the general public if you won't serve the general public), they are the absolute worst when it ckmes to snowflake mentalities.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I thought a reason to vote for Donald Trump was that secularism was attacking the free exercise of religion in the public square.

But I don't see it! It's fine!

I still like his policies, but this is just not something I see myself even if it's potentially a threat.

A great reason to vote R, not D:

Babies.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

A great reason to vote R, not D:

Babies.

Are you on about abortion?

Abortion itself is a moot point: banning it is unconstitutional, so any party promising to ban it is lying to you.

If you care about actual babies, then I'd suggest the voting for a party that will do more about things like universal health care, infant mortality, and maternal access to childcare... which sure as hell isn't the Republicans.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

No one who is against abortions is going to get the training to perform them. It would be like someone training to be a gynecologist but having moral objections to touching and seeing the genitals of a woman.
No one is forcing priests to marry gays or even allow them in their churches.

You are mistaken. There are those who believe all gynecologists shhould be forced to perform abortions or give up their licenses; similarly all hospitals should offer abortions whether they are catholic or not.

And I'm referring to things like baking cakes for gay couples, doing flower arrangements and the like.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Whenever religious people (Christian in most examples) face the thread of an other religion (e.g. Satanism) or secularism, they usually go for secularism.
It's not religious freedom you're after, it's religious privilege if you don't like a Baphomet statue beside your 10 commandments monument.

The 10 commandments have played an important part in the foundation of our culture. Baphomet has not.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Good. We're Christians and Muslims and Jews and Satanists and Atheists and Hindus and Buddhists and Wiccans and First Nations and Kemetics and Luciferians and so many other things that we just don't have the room in public sectors to accommodate them all, and all or none at all is the most fair way of doing it.

And that is what we do, or at lest what we are supposed to be doing.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

That is my biggest beef with it. Particularly and especially Evangelical Christians want special privileges, rights, and treatments that no one else gets, and they expect and demand them because they are Christian. Even if it due to poor decision making on their part (don't go into business servivng the general public if you won't serve the general public), they are the absolute worst when it ckmes to snowflake mentalities.

I think you're projecting.

During the Coronavirus closures, secular businesses (abortion clinics, for example) were often declared "essential" and had a right to be open with little or no restriction.

Meanwhile, churches still haven't managed properly to do wedding or funerals. Neither the state, nor their own bishops, will allow them to carry out their business as normal. Meanwhile, the death of infants hasn't gone down one bit under the actions of such clinics. In fact, they've been going up.

Why You Can Still Get An Abortion During The Coronavirus Pandemic

Someone wants themselves to have special privileges. Meanwhile, religious people just want the state to leave them alone.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I think you're projecting.

During the Coronavirus closures, secular businesses (abortion clinics, for example) were often declared "essential" and had a right to be open with little or no restriction.

Meanwhile, churches still haven't managed properly to do wedding or funerals. Neither the state, nor their own bishops, will allow them to carry out their business as normal. Meanwhile, the death of infants hasn't gone down one bit under the actions of such clinics. In fact, they've been going up.

Why You Can Still Get An Abortion During The Coronavirus Pandemic

Someone wants themselves to have special privileges. Meanwhile, religious people just want the state to leave them alone.

Abortions can be necessary and they are extremely time sensitive.
No one is going to die or be put in medical risk by not going to church. But lives are at risk--and needlessly so--when people attend church during this time.
Amd, we cant leave you aline because you interact with us. The state must keep us safe from needless gatherings (all 50 are failing miserable and failing in their Constitutional duty to promote our general wellbeing). You go to church, you catch covid, you spread to people you shop with.
That is called being selfish and self centered, thinking only for yourself and not others.

 

[Heyo]

The 10 commandments have played an important part in the foundation of our culture. Baphomet has not.

The importance for culture is not relevant for the free exercise of religion.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You are mistaken. There are those who believe all gynecologists shhould be forced to perform abortions or give up their licenses; similarly all hospitals should offer abortions whether they are catholic or not.

And I'm referring to things like baking cakes for gay couples, doing flower arrangements and the like.

They serve the public they serve the public. If they can't do that, don't open shops that cater to the general public. No queers is just as much crap and just as unacceptable as no Negroes, no Asians, No Irish, regardless the reason. In fact, when it comes to race, age, veteran statua, amd some other catagories the SC has already ruled religion can and will take a back seat to civil liberties and equalities. And, again, if a medical provider does not want to provide abortions they are under no obligation or requirement to perform them or even learn how. They should have that freedom. But ince they sign up to do something, like filling legally prescribed medications from a doctor for patients, their religious beliefs have no right or business interfering with a patients medical treatment.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And that is what we do, or at lest what we are supposed to be doing.

And unfortunately it's being increasingly done because stingy brats who can't share would rather see none at all if their idols of tablets and crosses can't be the only one's on display. They aren't conceding on the issue like mature adults, they do it because of their "my way or the highway" mentality.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The importance for culture is not relevant for the free exercise of religion.

But it IS relevant for i.e. the posting of the 10 commandments inside courthouses.

 

[Heyo]

But it IS relevant for i.e. the posting of the 10 commandments inside courthouses.

So, you don't think of the 10 commandments as a religious document? That might not jive with the religious crowd.

Are you, and do you think others would be, OK with displaying culturally and legally influential documents besides the ten commandments?

If not why not?

 

[MonkeyFire]

You shouldn't take legal advice, as in democracy, from a satan. And that's comming from a life long Democrat.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You are mistaken. There are those who believe all gynecologists shhould be forced to perform abortions or give up their licenses; similarly all hospitals should offer abortions whether they are catholic or not.

Neither of these are "forcing people to do abortions." Every medical profession has a standard of care; practitioners can't pick and choose for arbitrary reasons. Refusing to do abortions is as unethical as, say, refusing to do pap smears.

And I'm referring to things like baking cakes for gay couples, doing flower arrangements and the like.

Again: not forcing. Nobody is forced to open a bakery and no bakery is forced to make wedding cakes.

All the law says is that if your business chooses to sell to the public, it must do so equitably.

BTW: how would you feel about a bakery that refused to bake a cake for a Jewish wedding?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The 10 commandments have played an important part in the foundation of our culture. Baphomet has not.

Racism, colonialism and misogyny have played an important part in the foundation of our culture, too, but this is no reason to celebrate them or enshrine them in our secular institutions.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So, you don't think of the 10 commandments as a religious document? That might not jive with the religious crowd.

Are you, and do you think others would be, OK with displaying culturally and legally influential documents besides the ten commandments?

If not why not?

It is a religious document, but it is also a legal document. It has unique status, like the magna carta.