Conference Arguments "Lizard = Bird?"

[Platypus]

The current creationist conference I am currently attending has some arguments......

Here is one of the person giving the speech said:
"... There is no way lizards evolved to a bird, where are the genes in the lizard to evolve to a bird? Scales to feathers? Panting breathing style to an on-going inhale ..."

Here he is using a developed species against a different developed species, but he fails to see that both of them originate from the same ancestor, not the bird came from the lizard.

I would like to hear your opinion on this, as I would like to argue to him about this tomorrow.

 

[Riverwolf]

As far as I can tell, "lizards" evolved into the early dinosaurs (which are universally accepted by the scientific community as warm-blooded, and therefore not reptiles), some of which evolved feathers (I couldn't tell you the reason), and eventually became birds. It is a known fact that several dinosaurs, such as raptors, did, in fact, have feathers.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Platypus,

You can find many answers to the ridiculous and pseudoscientific claims of Creationists here,
An Index to Creationist Claims

As for the "... There is no way lizards evolved to a bird, where are the genes in the lizard to evolve to a bird? Scales to feathers? Panting breathing style to an on-going inhale ..." argument...

CB101.2: Mutations and new features.
CB102: Mutations adding information
CB731: Finger development
CB921.2: Half a wing
CC214: Transitional Birds
CC214.1: Archaeopteryx as a Transitional Bird
CC214.1.1: Archaeopteryx a bird?
CC214.2: Ezekiel disproves bird evolution
CC351: Archaeopteryx is a fake.
CC352: Archaeoraptor Was a Fake
Print them up and make notes.

 

[MSizer]

You should also look up the work of Jack Horner. He's a paleantologist who works with evelotional biologists. He's breaking ground in finding the genes in modern chickens which have been "turned off" throughout evolution. Some of his colleauges have found some genes, which if "turned back on" result in chickens born with tails and teeth. (no modern bird has a tail, only tail feathers, but they do have a pygostile, which is a clump of bones on their butt left over from previous times when they did have tails).

 

[painted wolf]

Lizards had nothing to do with bird evolution. This is a typical misdirection/appeal to ignorance.

Dinosaurs were nothing like lizards.
All the major features of birds are to be found in dinosaurs.

Dinosaurs breathed like birds Dinosaurs Breathed Like Birds | LiveScience
Dinosaurs had feathers as well as earlier structures... and birds still have scales.

wa:do

 

[Riverwolf]

Lizards had nothing to do with bird evolution. This is a typical misdirection/appeal to ignorance.

Dinosaurs were nothing like lizards.
All the major features of birds are to be found in dinosaurs.

Dinosaurs breathed like birds Dinosaurs Breathed Like Birds | LiveScience
Dinosaurs had feathers as well as earlier structures... and birds still have scales.

wa:do

Well, it should be noted that (at least, according to "Walking With Monsters"... I know, probably not the best source in the world) that the earliest bipedal, carnivorous dinosaurs that eventually evolved into birds did evolve from ancient lizards.

 

[Platypus]

@paintedwolf

Interesting article, I enjoyed reading that....

However brought up new questions.... If dinosaurs are not reptiles..... Then how did they grow so big? Reptiles dont have a limit of growth, but only die out, or am i wrong? If so please provide sources!

 

[painted wolf]

Well, it should be noted that (at least, according to "Walking With Monsters"... I know, probably not the best source in the world) that the earliest bipedal, carnivorous dinosaurs that eventually evolved into birds did evolve from ancient lizards.

Actually no... they said that they evolved from ancient REPTILES (Archosaurs to be exact)... Lizards are a class of modern reptile that didn't evolve until around the same time as the dinosaurs did.
WWD is not a good source of information... fun to watch, but frustrating in so many ways.

wa:do

 

[Riverwolf]

Actually no... they said that they evolved from ancient REPTILES (Archosaurs to be exact)... Lizards are a class of modern reptile that didn't evolve until around the same time as the dinosaurs did.
WWD is not a good source of information... fun to watch, but frustrating in so many ways.

wa:do

Thanks. I'll remember that. :yes: My knowledge of the subject is, admittedly, pretty small.

Then again, the program does keep referring to dinosaurs as "reptiles..." that is rather frustrating. (Not to mention it continues to hold to the idea that the T-rex was a powerful, fearsome predator... and the program was made well after the theory that it was actually a scavenger, I think.)

 

[Autodidact]

The current creationist conference I am currently attending has some arguments......

Here is one of the person giving the speech said:
"... There is no way lizards evolved to a bird, where are the genes in the lizard to evolve to a bird? Scales to feathers? Panting breathing style to an on-going inhale ..."

Here he is using a developed species against a different developed species, but he fails to see that both of them originate from the same ancestor, not the bird came from the lizard.

I would like to hear your opinion on this, as I would like to argue to him about this tomorrow.

He also appear to be ignorant of the existence of mutations.

 

[painted wolf]

Interesting article, I enjoyed reading that....

Glad you liked it.

However brought up new questions.... If dinosaurs are not reptiles..... Then how did they grow so big? Reptiles dont have a limit of growth, but only die out, or am i wrong? If so please provide sources!

Reptillia is no longer used by evolutionary scientists, except when talking to the public as a folk term. Biologically it is useless.
Crocodillians are closer to birds both genetically and anatomically.
Turtles and Sphenodonts are unlike any other groups... at best Reptillia can cover the lizards and snakes.
This group is called paraphyletic and it's one of the 'no-no's' of classification.

Reptiles do have limits to their growth, but they do grow more continuously through their lives than mammals or birds do. We reach sexual maturity after we reach full growth, 'reptiles' reach sexual maturity before they reach full growth.

Dinosaurs are in between birds and crocodillians in terms of their sexual/physical maturity timing. That is, they reach sexual maturity before they are full size, but the gap between the two is much narrower... and Dinosaurs grew FAST. A hadrosaur for example could go from six inch long hatchling to a three ton adult in about five years and had a maximum life span of about thirty years. Sauropods also grew ridiculously fast...
Sexual maturity in growing dinosaurs does not fit reptilian growth models — PNAS
Growth patterns in brooding dinosaurs reveals the timing of sexual maturity in non-avian dinosaurs and genesis of the avian condition

wa:do

 

[painted wolf]

Thanks. I'll remember that. :yes: My knowledge of the subject is, admittedly, pretty small.

No problem... Paleontology is one of my better fields of knowledge and I love any excuse to discuss it.

Then again, the program does keep referring to dinosaurs as "reptiles..." that is rather frustrating. (Not to mention it continues to hold to the idea that the T-rex was a powerful, fearsome predator... and the program was made well after the theory that it was actually a scavenger, I think.)

That is one of Dr. Horner's pet hypothesis... he's been championing it since the 1980's. Unfortunately (or fortunately if your a T-rex fan) the evidence is rather strong against him. T-rex is very well built for predation and there are fossils of animals that have survived what could have only been an attack from one of these apex predators. There is even some evidence that they were pack hunters.
But, remember that no predator turns up a free meal... there is no shame in scavenging a free (and safe) meal, or using your large size to bully a meal from someone else.

wa:do

 

[Riverwolf]

No problem... Paleontology is one of my better fields of knowledge and I love any excuse to discuss it.

And as a former child who used to pretend to be a vilociraptor (even in fifth grade... ) and saw and loved Jurassic Park in the theaters when I was five (and loved it to death and still do), I relish any excuse to talk about dinosaurs. ^_^

That is one of Dr. Horner's pet hypothesis... he's been championing it since the 1980's. Unfortunately (or fortunately if your a T-rex fan) the evidence is rather strong against him. T-rex is very well built for predation and there are fossils of animals that have survived what could have only been an attack from one of these apex predators. There is even some evidence that they were pack hunters.

Huh. I wasn't aware of that. Luckily, I AM a t-rex fan. ^_^

But, remember that no predator turns up a free meal... there is no shame in scavenging a free (and safe) meal, or using your large size to bully a meal from someone else.

wa:do

Indeed.

 

[gnostic]

But, remember that no predator turns up a free meal... there is no shame in scavenging a free (and safe) meal, or using your large size to bully a meal from someone else.

Are you speaking from experience, wolfy?

 

[Gabethewiking]

there is no shame in scavenging a free (and safe) meal, or using your large size to bully a meal from someone else.

I am going to remember you.....

 

[painted wolf]

Are you speaking from experience, wolfy?

I have been known to raid left-overs from time to time. :eat:

wa:do