Concerning the Islamic Conception of Jesus

[Trailblazer]

Yes, I think the gospel writers were trying to make it seem like Jesus really did rise from the dead. Since many of us don't believe that is possible, even though some of us also believe that anything is possible for God, then we have to find a way to explain why they wrote what they did.

But, it is what the writers of the gospels said happened. They did not write it to be "obviously" not a true and literal story about Jesus. Christians formed their concept of who Jesus is based on those writings... which led them to believe that Jesus, in some way, must be God.

You said: Yes, I think the gospel writers were trying to make it seem like Jesus really did rise from the dead.

Maybe or maybe not. We can never know now, so why bother talking about it? All we know is that most Christians believed that Jesus rose from the dead. And they have capitalized on that belief and used it to say that their religion is superior to all other religions for generation upon generation.

Who even gives a rip even if a body rose from the grave? As Abdu'l-Baha said, that body will die again anyway.

 

[Trailblazer]

Still, it is not obvious by what the writers said. 2000 years ago they say that Jesus came back to life. He has a flesh and bone body but can appear and disappear. He floats off into the clouds. These men say that this same Jesus will come back.

So what? They can say whatever they want to say, but that does not make it true. As I just said on another forum, people are free to believe whatever they choose to believe, because we all have free will.

That is almost what Baha'is are saying. But no, they try and make all religions all tie in together.

No, Baha'is do not try and make all religions all tie in together. I already explained that in a previous post, no need to repeat that.

 

[Trailblazer]

And, Baha'is support that belief in the "virgin" birth of Jesus? Why?

Because Baha'u'llah upholds it.

So if it is not a messianic prophecy... why do the Baha'i try and "pilfer" it?

Baha'is believe it is a Messianic prophecy and Baha'u'llah was the Messiah who fulfilled part of it and the rest will be fulfilled during the Messianic Age.

We do not have to pilfer it because we have a real person who fits the bill, unlike Christians who only have a hope that Jesus will return and fulfill it.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Yes, I think the gospel writers were trying to make it seem like Jesus really did rise from the dead. Since many of us don't believe that is possible, even though some of us also believe that anything is possible for God, then we have to find a way to explain why they wrote what they did.

They wrote it as if a real event and what did that cause? People were expected to believe Jesus conquered death and the devil. People were expected to believe that the only way that they could get their sins forgiven and to become acceptable to God was to believe these stories about Jesus. Is this real or superstitious kinds of beliefs? I think a lot of us would think... "Hmmm? Rising from the dead... then floating off into the clouds... Hmmm? Being born with the taint of sin, because one man took a bite out of a forbidden fruit? That there is an evil spirit named Satan floating around us in the invisible world trying to trick us into not believing in God and Jesus?" Yeah, that could be seen as being very superstitious.

But, it is what the writers of the gospels said happened. They did not write it to be "obviously" not a true and literal story about Jesus. Christians formed their concept of who Jesus is based on those writings... which led them to believe that Jesus, in some way, must be God. Islam says "No way." Jesus is not God, and he didn't die on the cross. Baha'is say, "Yes, he died on the cross and stayed dead. He did not rise physically from the dead." Then Baha'is go on to say that there is no "original" sin or there is no Satan, the devil. So what does become obvious is that different religions want to keep and build off of some things from the previous religions but to change some of the things that are way too "superstitious" sounding. But in the writings of those previous religions, it is not "obvious."

I think this gospel should be obviously nonliteral to the Jews to whom it is written. As a non Jewish English reading person I have only changed my mind about it as a result of a few things. Here are some of them:

First of all there is Matthew's usage of 'Fulfill'. Fulfill is heavily repeated but is used in a sense opposite of its meaning. It doesn't translate 'imitate', yet in every case that is what Matthews use of the term is. A fulfillment would require a future claim by a prophet, however in each case where Matthew uses 'Fulfill' there is no prognostication, no prediction to fulfill. I'm put in the position of deciding why Matthew is doing it, and I've decided he's writing in a mode that is unique to his culture and period in a nonliteral way.

Have you noticed the incorrect genealogy that Matthew begins with? He goes to the trouble of making Jesus to be the 14+14+14th generation (sum = 42). Matthew is likely alluding to the triple purification of Israel and is saying that the purifications are now complete, but he's saying it through this geneology. So he's saying Israel has after much suffering in the furnace of affliction finally managed to come up with this one pure person, refined like silver. I think Matthew's reader is expected to be Jewish and to notice these little caveats plus others.

Divorce. Have you noticed that many Christians get somehow the idea that Jesus declares divorce to be a sin? What he actually does is declares a hardened heart to be sin and blames broken marriages upon that, however he doesn't go into depth explaining the points in the law. That trips a lot of people up who don't have it memorized and don't understand its function in Jewish society. That's because Matthew anticipates that we are Jews already so familiar with the law that we'll know immediately what Jesus is talking about -- but we aren't. We aren't Jewish, don't know the law, and so the passage confuses us. Many people claim that Jesus changes the law about divorce, and by saying so they have (mistakenly) ruined many lives. There are people living in hellish situations unloved as a result, and marriage has become a terror. People are afraid to get married anymore. It is because this is written to Jews not to just anybody and is misunderstood by the typical reader. Its written using genres that probably don't occur among English speaking authors and presumes a level of mastery of Jewish culture and knowledge.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes but... the going to Egypt and the killing of the baby boys is all Matthew. So, since the NT is believed to be the "Word of God", are those stories true? Or, is it the "word" of the writer of Matthew to make it seem like Jesus fulfilled some prophecies?

One of the most important aspects of the art of story telling is credibility. Herod was renowned for his misdeeds and the slaughter of the innocents clearly makes a connection between Jesus and Moses. It was later that Christians took the story entirely at face value (literally) a claimed prophetic fulfilment. It is of course unlikely as historians at the time such as Josephus would have made reference to Herod’s slaughter of the innocents along with his many other misdeeds. He never did.

Massacre of the Innocents - Wikipedia

 

[CG Didymus]

why bother talking about it?

Hmmm? Because this is a forum about religions?

Who even gives a rip even if a body rose from the grave?

Because the NT says it happened.

So what? They can say whatever they want to say, but that does not make it true.

Okay, they said it, and you know for sure that it didn't happen? Of course you do, because your religion says so. What other proof do we need?

One of the most important aspects of the art of story telling is credibility.

Well, the Bible and the NT is losing its credibility. But, is it the intention of the Baha'i Faith to help dissolve its credibility? Baha'is have said... It's not 100% authentic. It shouldn't be taken literally. Jesus did not come back to life. There is no Satan. Ishmael not Isaac was taken to be sacrificed. The gospel writers were probably not eye witnesses. Some say Paul changed the course of Christianity away from the teachings of Jesus. So by the time we get done, it sounds more like the words and fictional symbolic stories of men. So why does the Baha'i Faith call it the "inspired" word of God?

 

[Trailblazer]

Hmmm? Because this is a forum about religions?

But that does not mean we have to talk about the bodily resurrection of Jesus 24/7.
There are plenty of other things to talk about that actually matter.

Because the NT says it happened.

Who cares? Maybe you care and Christians care but I do not know any nonbelievers or non-Christians who care.
If you believe it why don’t you officially become a Christian? Why pretend you are a nonbeliever?

Okay, they said it, and you know for sure that it didn't happen? Of course you do, because your religion says so. What other proof do we need?

I do not need my religion for proof; I have science that says bodies do not come back to life after 3 days. That is ample proof for me. YMMV.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Well, the Bible and the NT is losing its credibility. But, is it the intention of the Baha'i Faith to help dissolve its credibility? Baha'is have said... It's not 100% authentic. It shouldn't be taken literally. Jesus did not come back to life. There is no Satan. Ishmael not Isaac was taken to be sacrificed. The gospel writers were probably not eye witnesses. Some say Paul changed the course of Christianity away from the teachings of Jesus. So by the time we get done, it sounds more like the words and fictional symbolic stories of men. So why does the Baha'i Faith call it the "inspired" word of God?

The NT revolves around a narrative that was credible in regards providing meaning. Herod’s slaughter of the innocents and the flight of Mary and Joseph to Egypt wasn’t just a literal story. It connects the Exalted Personage of Jesus with Moses. It touches on the fulfilment of Prophecy. It wouldn’t have the power and influence for so many generations if it revolved around a story that had no credibility.

The process of examining this narrative by historical criticism of biblical texts became an important movement within Christianity during the enlightenment period of Europe with rapid advances in science. It is a movement that’s been happening within Christianity for centuries. Christian fundamentalism as it stands today is a response to that movement.

A Baha’i perspective of the NT fits within the spectrum of Christian beliefs where we find a middle path. At one end we have the uncritical evangelical or fundamentalist-Christian view that the Bible is wholly and indisputably the literal word of God. At the other end are the liberal, scholarly conclusion that the Bible is no more than a product of complex historical and human forces.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

Okay, I was hoping there'd be something about who the "Lamb" is. To me, it seems to be Jesus, but Baha'is can't have Jesus, the Godman, be the one returning... so, for them, it is the "Spirit of Christ" that is returning.

Yeah, no Lamb is mentioned anywhere in the whole Qur'an, there is no scapegoat type theology and sacrifice is pretty de-emphasized overall. Barely anything about blood. The method in the Qur'an is to simply ask for forgiveness, the sacrifice is fasting or giving in charity or feeding the poor. Jesus in the Qur'an is also mostly an unimportant figure who is treated as expendable and redundant practically and having no power of his own or authority. Mary almost seems to get quite a bit more affection and sympathy overall in the way her story is told with a lot more closeness and the praise given to her, though she is also described as easily destructable just like her son Jesus. The content regarding Jesus is mainly breezed through without much attention given to any particular scene or incident except possibly 4 unique incidents which are still covered pretty briefly, Jesus puppeted to speak in the crib, Jesus and the Tablespread which can be like a reference to the famous painting in the future and "Last Supper" but this one is more about people being jerks and asking for things to manifest magically, Jesus asking to be extracted, and Jesus at Judgment saying "I didn't tell them to worship me, if I did you would know anyway, and you can kill them or forgive them, whatever". Jesus in the Qur'an seems to give the impression that he never liked people very much, they were extremely fickle and annoying, and wasn't even particularly fond of his companions either, was probably pleased to go and have little to nothing more to perform. Even I seem more enthusiastic about talking to people than the Jesus depicted in the Qur'an, probably because no one worships me. I bet that it would probably get pretty irritating and infuriating dealing with a lot of fans constantly asking for miracles which were just meant to demonstrate and prove the miraculous power of God. There is a quick breezed through montage of some miracles performed by God using Jesus which makes sure to have Jesus saying that these are by God's power, which most likely was misunderstood into him being God and it being his power. The Qur'an is full of what I perceive to be subtle humor and clownery and really gives the impression that people are annoying idiots, but that God has made them that way. The God of the Qur'an really seems like a kind of ironic prankster and full of ridiculous humor regarding the absurd or the drama people are going though, but many people coming from different backgrounds seem not to be able to detect quite how funny the Qur'an is and how frequently it mocks human beings, their boasts, their troubles, their doubts, their deaths, their afterlives. Though it is also serious, God even makes mention of controlling the reactions and instances of weeping and laughing, which the Qur'an induces to the devout, as the experience of reading it with care as a believer causes both laughter and tears. If one detects no humor in the Qur'an, I really doubt they are reading it correctly. God has basically no reason to be deadly serious like a human being, because not only did God create humor and every instance of particular humor and all jokes and funny things and their performances in every detail including our nuanced perception and reactions wholly, but also has nothing at all at stake, nothing permanent, nothing irretrievable, infinite resets, replays, can kill and bring back, create any experience, we are in the midst of total information manipulation, enchanted by whatever God makes us think is occurring. "Why so serious?". It is why the Qur'an bestows upon an understanding believer a very strong confidence and lightheartedness as well as a seriousness about ethics rather than other forms of things that concern those who perceive a limited life, like legacy. The Qur'an describes life as a dream, and the afterlife as a much slower reality compared to how life will be similar to a fleeting dream we woke up from, just like we might haveca dream in life which we acquire great wealth or some objects or relations and wake up and there is none of that with us. Reality itself is only illusory and an impression given, you are residing in one place, there is no space or time except as God makes it appear to be. There is no "system", its all just being made up, you appear to move forward and backwards in space but there was no space, only experience being given and impressions, you are with God, there is no there, its all here, one point, nothing else and nothing around it. This can be hard for people to accept, because God has them totally deluded and absorbed in the Magic Picture Show.

Here is every instance of "Lamb" in the Qur'an as far as I can find:
No word has been translated as "lamb" in the entire Qur'an and the Qur'an doesn't tend towards exaggerated mystical speech as its fashion, especially considering that it gets annoyed even by people calling their wives their mothers or adopted kids calling their caretakers their parents. Paradise and Hell are also literal "is this then magic?" people are mocked with due to their thinking it wasn't ever going to be "real", as "real" as anything we consider "real" now for example.

Here are a few sheep though as an apology:
6:143
[They are] eight mates - of the sheep, two and of the goats, two. Say, "Is it the two males He has forbidden or the two females or that which the wombs of the two females contain? Inform me with knowledge, if you should be truthful."

6:146
And to those who are Jews We prohibited every animal of uncloven hoof; and of the cattle and the sheep We prohibited to them their fat, except what adheres to their backs or the entrails or what is joined with bone. [By] that We repaid them for their injustice. And indeed, We are truthful.

The idea here is that anyone created or made into or becoming a Jew and being burdened with these laws is in fact being cursed by God with these arbitrary sanctions, hardships, obsessive compulsive type issues. One might say, but Jew babies are innocent. That is true, except that the Qur'an suggests that in this modern world, and even in the past, the person who is made to be good will be led to better things, the person who is made for hell will be led to bad things, and we never know for certain which is which or where we are headed for certain, we may think we are great and are evil, we may be ashamed but are great and good without even thinking so, "God knows, you know not".

20:18
He said, "It is my staff; I lean upon it, and I bring down leaves for my sheep and I have therein other uses."

This is one of the most powerful and important sections of the whole Qur'an as it deals with the "information manipulation" I brought up earlier. God, refraining to say it, asks Moses what is in his hand. Moses is then made to explain it. Then God makes him cast it down and turns it into a living creature, a serpent, then upon picking it up its made a stick again. This is to show that God makes what is not "Be" and what is becomes no longer the case, making what is false and non-existent true, what is true non-existent and false. It was a stick, but that was turned into a lie, it is a snake, but that was turned into a lie. Of all the Prophets, Musa was shown some of the most instructive and educational of miracles. What God does, what God is, and what God can do, leaving Moses in total suspense and devout fear, terror. Musa is also among the funniest and most comedic or clownish of the characters in the Qur'an with some of the funniest incidents and stories and possibly dealt with and covered more than any other figure in the Qur'an. Other extremely prominent figures are Abraham and Solomon. Noah, Lot, Adam all get a lot of mention and long stories. These three people (Abraham, Moses, Solomon) are given tremendous demonstrations of the miraculous powers of God. Next, with prominent mentions are Joseph and Mary, Jesus, and Mary is also given some quick instruction on the same miraculous powers and the religion of the Malaika (angels).

Moses, Abraham, Solomon are really outstanding stories, with Moses and Abraham both experiencing ordeals with reality manipulating events such as Abraham being thrown in a furnace where the fire was given qualities different from the usual or expected and instantly made cool and not harmful. Abraham is demonstrated the resurrection, but not as clearly as one figure mentioned briefly who may be a reference to Balaam due to being linked with a donkey but really its someone traveling among ruins and who wonders how it could be thr case regarding ressurection and is given the answer by experiencing it and observing it.

21:78
And [mention] David and Solomon, when they judged concerning the field - when the sheep of a people overran it [at night], and We were witness to their judgement.

I typed Lamb and Sheep into Qur'an Corpus. Its just not significant terminology or ideology in the Qur'an. What is important in the Qur'an is God's total power and control over all reality and experience. If one bangs their head all day and doesn't understand this, or that God is Subhan (Non-Information, Chaos/Void, Like Nothing, Pure Power and Intelligence without material or "stuff" or form or limitations), what is it that they worship? If they think there are other factors really controlling their day or "upholding the bird" in any sense, then they believe in other powers which are illusory and transient and know nothing about The One Who is Like Nothing and Is Not Like Anything.

 

[metis]

Herod’s slaughter of the innocents and the flight of Mary and Joseph to Egypt wasn’t just a literal story.

It may not be a literal story at all, nor does it need be in order to teach lessons involving having faith and living within basic morality.

 

[Dawnofhope]

It may not be a literal story at all, nor does it need be in order to teach lessons.

Its very unlikely to have happened given the lack of any supportive evidence. The Jewish historian, Josephus doesn’t mention it, but does mention other misdeeds committed by Herod. Theological narratives often need to sound literally true to teach their lessons. Noah’s ark has dimensions in Genesis have the YECs convinced it happened as written.

Another example IMHO is the resurrection narrative. The Gospel writers have made some effort to present this as something that actually happened. I don’t know where you stand as a Christian in regards the resurrection of Christ but it has obvious problems if interpreted literally.

 

[metis]

Another example IMHO is the resurrection narrative. The Gospel writers have made some effort to present this as something that actually happened. I don’t know where you stand as a Christian in regards the resurrection of Christ but it has obvious problems if interpreted literally.

Yes, I also have my "questions" as it also being a literal account, but my rule-of-thumb for myself is to lean in the direction of it possibly being real to at least some extent. Where there's smoke, there's often at least a bit of a fire.

If I'm wrong, se la vie.

 

[axxxa_3]

I’ve encountered many different perspectives on Jesus and the Gospel, from the beauty of the Bahá’ís (which is rather close, in my opinion, to the NT), to the mind-blowing conception of certain Hindus as an expansion or plenary portion of God (namely, Krishna or Vishnu) in the material world, to others as another rising-and-dying deity worshipped alongside their own as followers of indigenous religions do, to others as a holy man or a renegade. No sweat here.

(By religion, I myself am no Christian, merely sympathetic to it.)

Yet, concerning Islam, my anger has been kindled. Why, you may ask? Well, they not only differ with the New Testament (which, again, is perfectly fine. Understandable.), but they claim that the Christians have it all wrong about Jesus, Jesus didn’t say what He’s recorded as having said about who He was and what He would do. He said something different from what they believe He said.

My question here is this: if Muslims say that Jesus was a prophet, would a prophet lie about his identity and his message?


Jesus in the New Testament claims to be the Son of God, many times referring to God as “[My] Father”. Those around Him understood that He made such claims. Why do Muslims ignore these passages? Additionally, He had foretold his own death (by crucifixion), and the New Testament makes it abundantly clear this is what became of Jesus, not to speak a word to His Resurrection from the dead and eventual return. Yet, Muslims claim that it was fabricated. He was not crucified, but was taken up to Heaven. Why, when both scripture and history confirm the Crucifixion of Jesus as having taken place?

I invite my Muslim friends to read His Words from themselves and evaluate whether or not He was a liar. If you’re willing to concede that He was telling the truth, logically speaking, it would nullify your religion’s claims, would it not?

First of all, to be fair, even Christians can't agree on this. To some Christians, Jesus PBUH is God, to others, he is the son of God. This topic is ambiguous even within the Christian community. And this is the main problem: misinterpretation.

Now, what does "son of God" really mean?
Because if you read the Bible, God has got sons by the tons! Adam is the son of God, Ephraim is the son of God and Israel is the son of God as well. In the book of Romans chapter 8, "All those who are led by the spirit of God are sons of God" which means that if you follow God's commandments you are considered a son of God but not in a literal way. It's the same as when an elderly person calls a young boy "son".

And if you say that Jesus PBUH is God or the son of God because a virgin birthed him and he has no father then what about Adam, the first man on earth who hasn't got a mother OR a father?? Surely if we follow your logic then Adam is greater than Jesus PBUH! Why isn't he praised? Because they were both made from dirt as described in the Quran and there is no difference between them. The moment God begets, he is no longer God!

 

[Sundance]

First of all, to be fair, even Christians can't agree on this. To some Christians, Jesus PBUH is God, to others, he is the son of God. This topic is ambiguous even within the Christian community. And this is the main problem: misinterpretation.

Now, what does "son of God" really mean?
Because if you read the Bible, God has got sons by the tons! Adam is the son of God, Ephraim is the son of God and Israel is the son of God as well. In the book of Romans chapter 8, "All those who are led by the spirit of God are sons of God" which means that if you follow God's commandments you are considered a son of God but not in a literal way. It's the same as when an elderly person calls a young boy "son".

And if you say that Jesus PBUH is God or the son of God because a virgin birthed him and he has no father then what about Adam, the first man on earth who hasn't got a mother OR a father?? Surely if we follow your logic then Adam is greater than Jesus PBUH! Why isn't he praised? Because they were both made from dirt as described in the Quran and there is no difference between them. The moment God begets, he is no longer God!

Regardless of the particular variances, in either case, you would be identifying Jesus as equal with God. Period. Hence why certain people wanted to stone Him for blasphemy in the Scriptures. Do you recall?


As to the phrase “son of God”, you are partially right. The phrase is used throughout the Hebrew Bible to indicate a particular intimacy with God. Hence why, indeed, angels, King David, the Jewish people, and Christians are called sons and daughters of God in Scripture. However, concerning Jesus, when He uses the phrase to identify Himself, He’s going beyond simply an intimate relationship. He identifies Himself with God Himself through the use of the phrase. Again, hence Him being accused of blasphemy.


Adam was, of course, the first man on the Earth according to Scripture. He is compared to Jesus in the sense of not a virgin birth, because (as you agree) he has no mother or father. He was the first father of human beings. Rather, in Christian belief, because of his sin against God, suffering and death entered into the world. Through the perfect righteousness and blameless life of Christ Jesus (the Second Adam), humanity can find eternal life. Surely, my friend, you don’t mean to make a sinner equal with He who knew no sin at all, right? Such is (in my opinion) tantamount to sacrilege!

Jesus Christ in the New Testament makes it unequivocally clear who He is: the only begotten Son of God, the crucified and risen Lord, the Jewish Messiah, the Redeemer of the whole world.


Here is where I stand regarding this matter: you’re free to reject His Claims, as most Jews do; you’re free to accept them, as the Christians (and those synpathizers) do; or you’re free to ignore His Claims, as the followers of most other religions do.
However, what you must not do, what you must never do is deliberately twist His Claims, as you Muslims do.

Tell me, dear sir, you as a Muslim, you believe that God revealed the Gospel through Jesus, yes? Do you know what the Message of the Gospel is? The same Message that Jesus told His Followers to go into all the world and preach?

 

[axxxa_3]

Regardless of the particular variances, in either case, you would be identifying Jesus as equal with God. Period. Hence why certain people wanted to stone Him for blasphemy in the Scriptures. Do you recall?


As to the phrase “son of God”, you are partially right. The phrase is used throughout the Hebrew Bible to indicate a particular intimacy with God. Hence why, indeed, angels, King David, the Jewish people, and Christians are called sons and daughters of God in Scripture. However, concerning Jesus, when He uses the phrase to identify Himself, He’s going beyond simply an intimate relationship. He identifies Himself with God Himself through the use of the phrase. Again, hence Him being accused of blasphemy.


Adam was, of course, the first man on the Earth according to Scripture. He is compared to Jesus in the sense of not a virgin birth, because (as you agree) he has no mother or father. He was the first father of human beings. Rather, in Christian belief, because of his sin against God, suffering and death entered into the world. Through the perfect righteousness and blameless life of Christ Jesus (the Second Adam), humanity can find eternal life. Surely, my friend, you don’t mean to make a sinner equal with He who knew no sin at all, right? Such is (in my opinion) tantamount to sacrilege!

Jesus Christ in the New Testament makes it unequivocally clear who He is: the only begotten Son of God, the crucified and risen Lord, the Jewish Messiah, the Redeemer of the whole world.


Here is where I stand regarding this matter: you’re free to reject His Claims, as most Jews do; you’re free to accept them, as the Christians (and those synpathizers) do; or you’re free to ignore His Claims, as the followers of most other religions do.
However, what you must not do, what you must never do is deliberately twist His Claims, as you Muslims do.

Tell me, dear sir, you as a Muslim, you believe that God revealed the Gospel through Jesus, yes? Do you know what the Message of the Gospel is? The same Message that Jesus told His Followers to go into all the world and preach?

I find your answer very interesting. I believe that the message of the Gospel is to believe in Christ and to love others. It's as simple as that. The prophet Jesus PBUH is not equal to God because God the almighty is far more superior to us humans.

Could you please answer the following question for me that I ask out of pure curiosity and in hopes to understand where you come from with the statement "Jesus is the son of God": How can you refer to a human as the son of God? Because in that case, he is not that superior because any of us could have been the son of God. And I know you're probably going to say he's different because a virgin birthed him but how can a human give birth to the son of God or as other Christians refer him as "God"?

Another point of mine is, how can your God die? Doesn't that take away all his superiority as "Son of God"? If he was really the son of God or God himself surely he should be immortal, all-knowing, never-ending, independent of food water and sleep don't you agree?

(Here I am talking about those who refer Jesus PBUH as God) And a God should be present from the beginning of life until the end yet Jesus isn't there in the beginning or in the end. Plus, there isn't a single unambiguous statement in the whole complete bible where Jesus PBUH says "I am God" or "Worship me". There also isn't a verse where Jesus PBUH says he is the begotten son of God.

Muslims have never twisted Jesus' claims. How can we? He is our prophet and we highly respect him and look up to him! It is Christian scholars who have changed the Holy Bible to their benefits. The old testament is the real teaching of Jesus PBUH. The new testament, however, has changed. And even if some Christians follow the scriptures of the old testament they misinterpret it leading to them believing Jesus PBUH is the son of God or God himself.

We have this verse in the Quran that says: "And as Allah said, "O Isa son of Maryam, (Jesus son of Mary) did you say to mankind, "take me and my mother to your selves as two gods, apart from Allah '?" He said, All Extolment be to You! In no way is it for me to say what I have no right to. In case I ever said it. then You already know it. You know whatever is within my self, and I do not know what is within Your Self; surely You, Ever You, are The Superb Knower of the Things Unseen."

In Islam, we believe that Jesus PBUH is a prophet sent by God to spread his teachings and the Gospel. We highly respect Jesus PBUH. We also believe that there is one and only God, Allah, who created all living things. He is all-knowing, never-ending, independent of food water and sleep and so much more which is why He has 99 names that all define him.
All of that makes him worthy of being a God, He is far more superior than any being on this earth to ever exist. He is in control of everything and he has no companions or parents or children. He is unique.
So I honestly do not understand how you can say Jesus PBUH is the son of God or God himself when he is far too similar to us humans. And every miracle Jesus PBUH has done, it was God who did them THROUGH Jesus PBUH just like the miracles of Moses PBUH and other prophets.

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus Christ in the New Testament makes it unequivocally clear who He is: the only begotten Son of God, the crucified and risen Lord, the Jewish Messiah, the Redeemer of the whole world.

That would ALL depend upon how you interpret the New Testament verses.
Where did Jesus ever say He was the Jewish Messiah and the Redeemer of the whole world?
I believe it was Christianity who teaches this, not Jesus.

 

[Sundance]

I find your answer very interesting. I believe that the message of the Gospel is to believe in Christ and to love others. It's as simple as that. The prophet Jesus PBUH is not equal to God because God the almighty is far more superior to us humans.

Ahhhhh but what does it mean to believe in Christ, as the New Testament teaches crucially (no pun intended)? Jesus says it plainly and forcefully, “Unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” Who is He? Simple. The only begotten Son of God, the Son of Man who sits at the right hand of the Father, the Lord and Saviour of humankind. The crucified and risen King.


He asks His Disciples, “Who do people say that I am?” They give all kinds of answers. Elijah. A prophet. A madman. He asks them then, “Who do you say that I am?”
Peter responds with the very same words that Christians confess 2,000 years later, “You are the Christ (Messiah), the Son of the Living God.” To this, Jesus responded, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.”

While Jesus did teach us to love God and love our neighbours as ourselves, keep the commandments, that wasn’t all. If it was, he wouldn’t be preaching anything different from what the Pharisees were teaching people. They taught these things, too.


Jesus has His own distinct way of teaching Judaism. His Message was encapsulated in the Gospel.
The Gospel, again the same preached for the last 2,000 years, is this:

Repent, for the Kingdom of God (that Jesus Himself will establish) is at hand.

This is part one.


The part two (the all-important enchilada) is this:

God, in spite of the wretchedness and evil of all humanity, displayed His Mercy by choosing Jesus as the One to bear the burden for sin so that [through His Crucifixion and Resurrection] anyone who believes can find life eternal.

This is the Message of the Gospel, clearly recorded in the New Testament. Anything or anyone that distorts this Message or attributes any other to Jesus saying, “He really taught this.” is to be ashamed of themselves.

Could you please answer the following question for me that I ask out of pure curiosity and in hopes to understand where you come from with the statement "Jesus is the son of God": How can you refer to a human as the son of God? Because in that case, he is not that superior because any of us could have been the son of God. And I know you're probably going to say he's different because a virgin birthed him but how can a human give birth to the son of God or as other Christians refer him as "God"?

Another point of mine is, how can your God die? Doesn't that take away all his superiority as "Son of God"? If he was really the son of God or God himself surely he should be immortal, all-knowing, never-ending, independent of food water and sleep don't you agree?

(Here I am talking about those who refer Jesus PBUH as God) And a God should be present from the beginning of life until the end yet Jesus isn't there in the beginning or in the end. Plus, there isn't a single unambiguous statement in the whole complete bible where Jesus PBUH says "I am God" or "Worship me". There also isn't a verse where Jesus PBUH says he is the begotten son of God.

Are you sure Jesus wasn’t there in the beginning? Uhhhhhh He says in John 8:58, “Before Abraham was, I am.” In John chapter 1, it’s recorded that the Word that was with God in the beginning (and was God) became flesh and had dwelt among men. Who was this talking about?


Son of God, virgin birth....hmmmm. It’s funny that you assume that the virgin birth is my starting point. Jesus explicitly states that He is the Son of God. Read His Words in John 3:16-18, which are the verses that comprise the Gospel.

God, as a Voice from Heaven, cries out, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” If not Him, then His Disciples. If not them, then certain supporters of the Pharisees who wanted to stone Him for blasphemy because of it. If not them, then certain of the Romans who encountered Him. Even the demons that He casts out, the voice of even Satan tempting Him confesses Him to be the Son of God. It’s so powerful!

On top of these, He makes claims to be able to do things only God can. Especially, to forgive sins and The Judgment, saying “The Son of Man has power and authority on earth, even to forgive sins.” and “The Father [God] judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son [Himself].”

Speaking to God supposedly dying, Christians do not teach that God Himself died, but His Son who was a human being on the earth. Regarding His Death, I have a question for YOU this time. In Islam, is it not taught that Jesus did not die on the cross, but was rescued and raised up to Heaven? On top of it being absolutely illogical that any person is raised up to Heaven without
dying first, you extend your irrationality further by claiming a flesh and blood man never died at all! Preposterous! Is it not appointed by God for every human being (even any prophet) to live a certain amount of time and then die? Also, I find it funny how concerning being raised to Heaven without dying first, this is only taught of Jesus; not of Abraham, nor Moses, neither David nor Solomon, not even Muhammad himself. Only Jesus. Would this not make Jesus immortal? Incorruptible by physical death which only God, by nature, is?

Muslims have never twisted Jesus' claims. How can we? He is our prophet and we highly respect him and look up to him! It is Christian scholars who have changed the Holy Bible to their benefits. The old testament is the real teaching of Jesus PBUH. The new testament, however, has changed. And even if some Christians follow the scriptures of the old testament they misinterpret it leading to them believing Jesus PBUH is the son of God or God himself.

We have this verse in the Quran that says: "And as Allah said, "O Isa son of Maryam, (Jesus son of Mary) did you say to mankind, "take me and my mother to your selves as two gods, apart from Allah '?" He said, All Extolment be to You! In no way is it for me to say what I have no right to. In case I ever said it. then You already know it. You know whatever is within my self, and I do not know what is within Your Self; surely You, Ever You, are The Superb Knower of the Things Unseen."

In Islam, we believe that Jesus PBUH is a prophet sent by God to spread his teachings and the Gospel. We highly respect Jesus PBUH. We also believe that there is one and only God, Allah, who created all living things. He is all-knowing, never-ending, independent of food water and sleep and so much more which is why He has 99 names that all define him.
All of that makes him worthy of being a God, He is far more superior than any being on this earth to ever exist. He is in control of everything and he has no companions or parents or children. He is unique.
So I honestly do not understand how you can say Jesus PBUH is the son of God or God himself when he is far too similar to us humans. And every miracle Jesus PBUH has done, it was God who did them THROUGH Jesus PBUH just like the miracles of Moses PBUH and other prophets.

You do twist His Claims, unfortunately. He makes it absolutely clear who He is and what He came to do. In the book of Matthew (20:18-19), He explicitly says,


“Behold, we are going to Jerusalem; and the Son of Man will be delivered to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn Him to death, and will hand Him over to the Gentiles to mock and scourge and crucify Him, and on the third day, He will be raised up.”

It’s right here in black and white. You profess that you respect Jesus, but you deny what He says. You, sir, speak falsely. Any person who truly respects someone wouldn’t distort their message.

What sort of individual would be recorded as having said one thing and then years later, saying something that serves only to contradict what they said earlier? Surely no person who is believed to be any kind of holy teacher or prophet! In such a case, that person comes across as inconsistent as best, at the worst, a liar. Jesus is no liar, sir, so I do take great offense. Absolutely.

So maybe, Christians didn’t have it wrong. Maybe you do. Christians got their information about Jesus from the Apostles, who received it from a Jesus. Tell me, from where does your understanding of Jesus come from? Most certainly not from Jesus Himself, nor from an Apostle! That’s to be sure. Most assuredly not through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, who confirms what Jesus Christ taught down to the last nook and cranny!

As to changing the message, believers in Jesus Christ – both Jewish and Gentile – were the ones to write the New Testament (obviously). Like any piece of writing, they wanted to convey a specific message or relate certain information to people. That information, that fundamental message, has not been changed a lick for the past 2,000 years, regardless of the Bible translation, regardless of the denomination: Jesus is the Son of God, the Son of Man. Risen Lord and Coming King.

Speaking to the benefit, what benefit could Christians have in trying to change Jesus’s Message and the claims He made to be the Son of the True and Living God, the one and only King, when it got both Jesus Himself and Christians killed and persecuted in the days of the Roman Empire? Even today, Christians face persecution and death, ironically in mostly Muslim-majority countries, but also in North Korea and China. Can you explain this to me? That you Muslims claim to respect Jesus, yet it’s in your countries that Christians, His Followers, face persecution?

I could see them trying to alter certain things or take certain things out of Jesus’s Teachings to make them fit a more accepted message, and not have caused issues. I mean, but who would do that? Do you know?

 

[Trailblazer]

Who is He? Simple. The only begotten Son of God, the Son of Man who sits at the right hand of the Father, the Lord and Saviour of humankind. The crucified and risen King.

Do you have actual NT verses wherein Jesus says He is all of those things, or is that just an interpretation you made from what you believe certain verses mean?

Given all the different and often contradictory verses in the NT anyone can make Jesus into anything they want Him to be so Christians can and do justify whatever they want to believe about Jesus.

Jesus never claimed to be a King. It was Christianity that made that claim about Jesus.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

 

[Sundance]

Do you have actual NT verses wherein Jesus says He is all of those things, or is that just an interpretation you made from what you believe certain verses mean?

Given all the different and often contradictory verses in the NT anyone can make Jesus into anything they want Him to be so Christians can and do justify whatever they want to believe about Jesus.

Jesus never claimed to be a King. It was Christianity that made that claim about Jesus.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Madam, the Scriptures themselves speak plainly of the truth of the matter. The New Testament clearly establishes Jesus as these things. For brevity’s sake, I will use either one or two verses.

Son of God: John 3:16-18

Son of Man: Matthew 24:30, Mark 14:62

King: That very verse you quoted speaks thusly. Christ came to be the Lord of the hearts of people, not an earthly king (at least, not in His First Coming). That’s why other Jewish people had a hard time making sense out of Him, but that’s why Christians today call Him their Lord. Although, He will come again to establish a Kingdom on the Earth that will have no end.

 

[Trailblazer]

Madam, the Scriptures themselves speak plainly of the truth of the matter.

Scriptures do not speak. People read scriptures and interpret them as they read, and since people all interpret them differently that is why there are so many different interpretations. If everyone who read the scriptures interpreted them the same way, then everyone would agree and there would not be so many disagreements among Christians and so many denominations of Christianity.

Whenever people say that scriptures speak plainly of the truth of the matter what they are really saying is that they know what the scriptures mean and that implies that anyone who does not agree with their interpretation is wrong. The sad thing is that these people cannot even understand how arrogant that is.

Although, He will come again to establish a Kingdom on the Earth that will have no end.

Jesus never said He would return to Earth to establish a Kingdom; not even once in the entire NT did Jesus ever promise to return to Earth. Rather, Jesus said:

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Unlike many verses in the NT, these verses have only one plain meaning, a meaning millions of Christians choose to gloss over because they want Jesus to return, but wanting something does not make it come to pass.