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Concerned About The Right Aligning with Putin

Discussion in 'Political Debates' started by Rival, May 13, 2022.

  1. Rival

    Rival Veteran Member
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    I'm a general 'right-winger' and have conservative views on many things, am very religious and so on, but I have noticed a trend of those on my side of the aisle arguing more or less Putin apologetics - even if they're not explicitly 'pro-Putin/Russia' I hear a lot about 'If only people would look at the history of why Russia invaded...' and 'This is not a normal invasion...' etc. And even if Russia does have some historical precedent, this is still just an excuse - Britain, or at the very least England, has hundreds of years worth of historical precedent for invading France, and if you want to go far back enough we could probably claim Normandy - but we don't, because that's nonsensical.

    As a rightist, I am concerned about this. I hope we can distance from Putin apologists. This is not a just war in any sense.
     
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  2. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    It seems that there is a faction of US conservatives that have somehow convinced themselves that authoritarianism is a grand idea. OMFG !
     
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  3. Rival

    Rival Veteran Member
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    I'm finding it in Europe, which is worrying.
     
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  4. Heyo

    Heyo Veteran Member

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    If you're too late ...
    The "left" was quick to support Ukraine and oppose Putin. So the "right" had to take the opposing position, wrong as it may be.
     
  5. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

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    It seems the war may not continue to last more than three months according to expert opinion. Keep fingers crossed.


    Military Expert Gives Putin's Forces 90 Days in Ukraine
     
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  6. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    The support towards Putin from European nationalists (rightists), started in the beginning of the last decade when the 44thPresident of the United States, Obama, started developping a very anti-Western stance and said things which I, as European, consider offensive and demeaning. And they were not worthy of the leader of the West.
    That is why, people felt that Putin was their only stronghold, defending that civilization.
    Then things changed, of course. The war has surely changed Putin's perception.
     
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  7. Rival

    Rival Veteran Member
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    I don't think it's quite this simplistic, and the Tories are, at least in name, the right-wing in the UK and they dealt pretty harshly with Putin. I'm just seeing this from a faction of the right which seems to think that because Putin shares, or claims to share, their social views on such as ssm, nuclear family etc. he's their saviour - it's ridiculous.
     
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  8. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Have you tried to understand the Russian side? I don't support Putin, I don't support Russia; but when I do try to explain their side of the story people assume I'm some kind of traitor or something. I'm just horrible for being open minded apparently.

    Ultimately, I think Russia is wrong but not as wrong as people think they are who have only listened to one side of the story. In my opinion both sides have become radicalized to some extent and not willing to listen to reason. This happens in all wars however; so I expect it.
     
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  9. Rival

    Rival Veteran Member
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    War and the apparent justifications thereof are always more nuanced, historical and cultural than the press or propagandists would have us believe, I concur, and Ukraine isn't a perfect state and has often been accused of being as corrupt as many Eastern European states tend to be. Russia has put forth many arguments for this war - Putin delivered a long, long speech about it - but many of these arguments and demands have since been retracted. I believe that this invasion is just one of many, such as in the Crimea and in Georgia, which no-one batted an eyelid over. Certainly both sides must be understood to even know why Putin has done this, but at bottom I believe this invasion is unjustifiable and horrendous.
     
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  10. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    Exactly. Besides, we should not forget that both Ukraine and Russia are countries where freedom of speech is practically absent. Very authoritarian and very militarized.

    My country is traditionally pretty Russophile. Throughout these last months every single speech given by Putin is translated into Italian.
    Recently Putin stated: we recognized Donbas republics exactly as the UN recognized Kosovo.
     
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  11. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    I agree. But my point is that all the needless vitriol for anyone who dares voice an opinion slightly or even outright favorable to Russia is not such a good sign for the current state of mind in the West.
     
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  12. Bathos Logos

    Bathos Logos Member

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    I am just of the opinion that it is a great thing for various people to come to the aid of a country getting invaded by another, if only to try and get setup on the global stage the idea that it is "harder than you think" to take that land you're after, or subjugate that people you're upset wanted to split from you, or whatever the case may be. Basically... make the bullies worry that they'll be sorry, and then indeed make them sorry when they go through with their shenanigans anyway. And yes... I understand that "The West" has been the bully... and I wouldn't have chastised anyone who wanted to come to the aid of anyone else against such invasions. I'm not for large scale violence and take-over no matter who is doing it. React (and pro-act) only as a defensive measure. That's what I would rather see. And if everyone adopted that strategy, then no one would be found striking first.
     
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  13. Yazata

    Yazata Active Member

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    I have a couple of points regarding the subject of this thread

    1. If we are to have any hope of predicting what Russia is apt to do in the future and how they might respond to changing events, then we will need to have some understanding of how they perceive things and what their motivations are. That requires some ability to see things from their point of view.

    2. More broadly, it's foolish and disfunctional to excessively moralize what should be cognitive matters. Excessive moralization is perhaps the hallmark of our contemporary world. Throughout contemporary life we see questions of true and false being smeared together and identified with questions of good and evil. Perhaps that's because 'right' and 'wrong' can be interpreted either way.

    One of the defects of this kind of stance is that it tends to fanaticism. Seen in terms of interests, conflicts can be addressed with mutually acceptable compromise. But seen moralistically, one must never compromise with evil and one must always strive to stamp it out. When facing off against a nuclear armed adversary, that kind of position can be suicidal.

    My point is that hysterically shrieking "Putin's bad!!!" brings us no closer to being able to play an effective game against him on the global chessboard. We need clear-headed judgments of motive and interest, not displays of emotion in these matters. I'm very much an adherent of 'Realpolitik' in that regard.
     
    #13 Yazata, May 13, 2022
    Last edited: May 13, 2022
  14. Rival

    Rival Veteran Member
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    I'm not arguing that we shouldn't try understanding Putin. I'm arguing that we can understand his actions and still disagree with them.

    And war is absolutely a moral issue we should be moralising about; thousands are being killed for literally no reason whatsoever. This is also a moral issue as the Russian Church is involved and is simping for Putin. No-one can really pretend these aren't all issues that need addressing. So I'm not just screaming Putin is evil, I'm telling those on my own side of the aisle to stop thinking Putin is their best friend because they happen to agree with some of his stances on other things.
     
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  15. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    #15 stvdv, May 13, 2022
    Last edited: May 13, 2022
  16. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    What did he supposedly say and/or do, iyo, that sent that signal?

    Then they're not doing much thinking. One doesn't have to go 180 degrees in order to reject someone else, as that's like them saying "I want to get the guillotine because I dislike being burned at the stake" even if neither was a requirement.

    BTW, of the above, which would you prefer? [scroll down for the obvious answer]




    A hot steak is always better than a cold chop.:)
     
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  17. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    They lack experiencing authoritarianism and they lack empathy to think this

    Seeing North Korea, China, Russia I am amazed people think that way
     
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  18. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    And, let's hope his military power is depleted soon AND he does not use nukes if nothing else is left
     
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  19. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    I know exactly what you mean
    Happens a lot, and especially on RF ime
     
  20. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    YES. I Fully agree with this
     
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