Concept of Hell in Western Religions

[Quiddity]

The concept of Hell is probably the most disturbing and most modified concept in the Western Religions. In the Gathas it alludes to it the Zoroastrian faith. The Jews also had an abstract version of it that they called “Gehinom” or “sheol” (there is a difference but you’ll need to ask a rabbi about it cause I don’t get it), but is probably more akin to purgatory in my own faith.

An interesting tid-bit is that the word “ge-hin-nom”is actually borrowed from the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem, "ge-hin-nom," the valley of hin-nom, which was where King Manasus sacrificed thousands of Israelite children to Molek, a demon god. After that nobody wanted to live in such a defiled land, so it became the garbage dump, with fires continually burning. Nobody wanted to get near it because of defilement. It was a haunt of demons.

This is the valley now:

"Sheol" can be said to be the same actual place but the difference is in how the person experiences this place.

At any rate, my point is that most all Western religions have a place or state where one experiences discomfort and growth. The major disagreement lies on whether this place or state continues after the end of time.

Now, this is just in general; I realize there are some groups within the Western religions who flat out deny its existence or anything like it. But the truth of the matter is that the overwhelming majority in the western religions do believe in it. Not just now, but have believed in it for as long as we have been putting things on paper.

Why do you think this is so prevalent in the world’s largest religions?

 

[Storm]

At any rate, my point is that most all Western religions have a place or state where one experiences discomfort and growth. The major disagreement lies on whether this place or state continues after the end of time.

FTR, my understanding of "Hell" differs from yours. I don't comprehend it as "a place of discomfort and growth" but one of pointless torment. Admittedly, the "pointless" part of that is due to the concept of ETERNAL damnation as opposed to finite.

So, a key part of this discussion is whether or not you believe damnation to be eternal. If so, please explain how it allows/ encourages the damned to grow.

Now, this is just in general; I realize there are some groups within the Western religions who flat out deny its existence or anything like it. But the truth of the matter is that the overwhelming majority in the western religions do believe in it. Not just now, but have believed in it for as long as we have been putting things on paper.

Why do you think this is so prevalent in the world’s largest religions?

Hell is a concept that appeals to our innate desire for justice. It feels RIGHT on a visceral, instinctive level. It provides a theological balance for the rampant injustice in the world.

 

[crystalonyx]

The concepts of hell (to which Catholics have taken to ridiculouly complex levels, at least in the past, for financial gain), are to say the least illogical and barbaric. They were invented mainly to scare people out of their wits into some belief system.

 

[Quiddity]

FTR, my understanding of "Hell" differs from yours. I don't comprehend it as "a place of discomfort and growth" but one of pointless torment. Admittedly, the "pointless" part of that is due to the concept of ETERNAL damnation as opposed to finite.

So, a key part of this discussion is whether or not you believe damnation to be eternal. If so, please explain how it allows/ encourages the damned to grow.

If you notice, I allowed room for this when I said:
The major disagreement lies on whether this place or state continues after the end of time.

Hell is a concept that appeals to our innate desire for justice. It feels RIGHT on a visceral, instinctive level. It provides a theological balance for the rampant injustice in the world.

Good answer and I agree. But do you think an innate desire can exist in us that can't be fulfilled? Kind of like being thirsty and not having water exist you know?

 

[Quiddity]

The concepts of hell (to which Catholics have taken to ridiculouly complex levels, at least in the past, for financial gain), are to say the least illogical and barbaric. They were invented mainly to scare people out of their wits into some belief system.

Thanks for your opinion.

 

[Storm]

If you notice, I allowed room for this when I said:
The major disagreement lies on whether this place or state continues after the end of time.

I did notice, which is why I asked if you believe in eternal damnation rather than assuming you do.

Good answer and I agree. But do you think an innate desire can exist in us that can't be fulfilled? Kind of like being thirsty and not having water exist you know?

At this point, yes. Bad things happen to good people, and vice versa. They always have, they will for the foreseeable future, and it sucks. I could go on about why this is, and why it makes perfect sense within my theology, if you like.

 

[Quiddity]

I did notice, which is why I asked if you believe in eternal damnation rather than assuming you do.

I do, yes. I believe people have the ability to lock themselves into a state of just not wanting anything to do with God (this is different then disagreeing, doubting, or struggling with some things). It is the catholic view that God does not create any mechanism that causes pain in the afterlife. Rather, the pain/discomfort is an experience as a result of a choice. It is not necessary to say that God imposes hell as punishment. It is not clear that God makes it intentionally unpleasant. It may be the very nature of the people who are there, and the fact that they are finally given what they want: freedom from God.

To the Catholic, heaven and hell may be the very same objective place (if one wishes to call it a place as an anthrophormism). How you experience this place is wholly dependant on what choices you make to lock yourself into a state.

At this point, yes. Bad things happen to good people, and vice versa. They always have, they will for the foreseeable future, and it sucks. I could go on about why this is, and why it makes perfect sense within my theology, if you like.

Sure...

 

[Storm]

I do, yes. I believe people have the ability to lock themselves into a state of just not wanting anything to do with God (this is different then disagreeing, doubting, or struggling with some things). It is the catholic view that God does not create any mechanism that causes pain in the afterlife. Rather, the pain/discomfort is an experience as a result of a choice. It is not necessary to say that God imposes hell as punishment. It is not clear that God makes it intentionally unpleasant. It may be the very nature of the people who are there, and the fact that they are finally given what they want: freedom from God.

To the Catholic, heaven and hell may be the very same objective place (if one wishes to call it a place as an anthrophormism). How you experience this place is wholly dependant on what choices you make to lock yourself into a state.

Ok, that's the superior view of eternal damnation, imo. However, it's not the popular conception, imx.

Sure...

Well, I believe that reality as we know it is God's maturation. That is to say, we are God, growing up.

We experience suffering and injustice that through us, God may come to understand those concepts. Also, God explores through us concepts of in/ justice, nobility, and ethics as part of deciding what to Become. We are the process of God's progress toward nobility. In a nutshell.

 

[Quiddity]

Ok, that's the superior view of eternal damnation, imo. However, it's not the popular conception, imx.

Well, Catholicism (1.25 billion) and Eastern Orthodox (300 million) alone make up the largest bodies which far outnumber the Protestants. The version you are used to hearing is probably the evangelical version of hell.

So it's only popular because they tend to be louder then us....

Well, I believe that reality as we know it is God's maturation. That is to say, we are God, growing up.

We experience suffering and injustice that through us, God may come to understand those concepts. Also, God explores through us concepts of in/ justice, nobility, and ethics as part of deciding what to Become. We are the process of God's progress toward nobility. In a nutshell.

Interesting...

That arises several problems in my world view but it's probably not for this thread.

Thanks.

 

[Wandered Off]

It is the catholic view that God does not create any mechanism that causes pain in the afterlife. Rather, the pain/discomfort is an experience as a result of a choice.

But the whole choice and all its consequences are a created mechanism. I don't see how framing it like that makes it any more palatable than just calling it punishment.

It's like telling a prisoner to either cooperate or suffer a beating. When he doesn't cooperate, you could conclude that the beating is a result of a choice and therefore the prisoner "wanted" it, but it's not a particularly benevolent choice to impose in the first place.

Victor, I do realize my objections arise more against the evangelical concept of Hell than the Catholic or orthodox one, so they may not apply as well to your beliefs.

 

[Storm]

Well, Catholicism (1.25 billion) and Eastern Orthodox (300 million) alone make up the largest bodies which far outnumber the Protestants. The version you are used to hearing is probably the evangelical version of hell.

So it's only popular because they tend to be louder then us....

Fair enough. I don't know about you, but I'm in the USA, and the fire-and-brimstone version is what I'm most familiar with. Personally, I find your conception to be superior both moral and rational terms, so kudos.

Interesting...

That arises several problems in my world view but it's probably not for this thread.

It's your thread. Would you care to discuss it elsewhere? I suggest either the thread linked in my sig (if you just want to understand it better) or a one-on-one debate if that's what you'd prefer.

Thanks.

You're most welcome.

 

[Storm]

But the whole choice and all its consequences are a created mechanism. I don't see how framing it like that makes it any more palatable than just calling it punishment.

It's like telling a prisoner to either cooperate or suffer a beating. When he doesn't cooperate, you could conclude that the beating is a result of a choice and therefore the prisoner "wanted" it, but it's not a particularly benevolent choice to impose in the first place.

Victor, I do realize my objections arise more against the evangelical concept of Hell than the Catholic or orthodox one, so they may not apply as well to your beliefs.

My understanding is that it's like being in the void: your self is the whole of your reality. For some people that's terrifying and painful.

 

[Wandered Off]

My understanding is that it's like being in the void: your self is the whole of your reality. For some people that's terrifying and painful.

That's a cool view. Seems to me those particular people would never end up there if they had a real choice and enough information to make it though.

 

[Storm]

That's a cool view. Seems to me those particular people would never end up there if they had a real choice and enough information to make it though.

Yeah, which is why I still reject it, although the theology is sound.

 

[Quiddity]

Fair enough. I don't know about you, but I'm in the USA, and the fire-and-brimstone version is what I'm most familiar with. Personally, I find your conception to be superior both moral and rational terms, so kudos.

I'm in the US as well and what you describe is probably what most people imagine when they think of hell; even I did. I did come from the evangelical community.

It's your thread. Would you care to discuss it elsewhere? I suggest either the thread linked in my sig (if you just want to understand it better) or a one-on-one debate if that's what you'd prefer.

You're most welcome.

Sure...just not today. I want to give it the time it deserves. I'll let you know some time next week.

 

[Storm]

OK. Looking forward to it.

 

[Quiddity]

That's a cool view. Seems to me those particular people would never end up there if they had a real choice and enough information to make it though.

That's the thing, we don't believe that lack of information or having a real choice is the source of the problem.

Like two years ago I started a thread out to prove this. I called it something like: "What if God came down from the sky before you"...something like that......and one thing I learned is that it wasn't clarity or lack of evidence that was the problem. Several people in this forum just flat out didn't want anything to do with God if "X" was confirmed to be true (like a fetus being a "person" or whatever moral issue). In fact, I clearly remember that Mr. Spinkles was the only one that said God's presence would be enough for Him.

What do you make of this?

 

[Wandered Off]

What do you make of this?

Yeah, I vaguely remember that thread a bit. I guess it comes down to whether people would put personal comfort above principle. And maybe people would "choose" hell having the wrong idea about God. If we don't have all the right information, or if we process it incorrectly, are we making an informed decision?

On the other hand, it also seems to presume one final, irrevocable choice, which is another seemingly odd concept. If having free will is all it's cracked up to be, why would it be suddenly and irreversibly removed? If indeed we are eternal, dynamic beings, how is it any kind of benevolence or justice to hold us to choices we had a minuscule time (compared to eternity) to make? But that's quite another subject.

 

[rocka21]

Well, Catholicism (1.25 billion) and Eastern Orthodox (300 million) alone make up the largest

bodies which far outnumber the Protestants. The version you are used to hearing is probably the evangelical version of hell.

So it's only popular because they tend to be louder then us....

And more biblically correct....




( couldn't resist) LOL

 

[Storm]

My understanding is that it's like being in the void: your self is the whole of your reality. For some people that's terrifying and painful.

That's a cool view. Seems to me those particular people would never end up there if they had a real choice and enough information to make it though.

Another take I've heard is that we all go to the Presence of God, which is hell for evil people.