Compromising your religion to "keep up with the times"

[pdoel]

Did Joseph Smith not call himself a Prophet? Did Joseph Smith not change the church from what it was before he came? You can call it a restoration to what was before, but it is still a change from what it was when Joseph Smith opened his mouth to speak.

Regards,
Scott

I agree. Like the whole idea of multiple wives. In my view, I see this as Joseph Smith changing religion against God's word, to "keep up with the times". Having one life did not fit into his plan, so he "changed" religion.

 

[Popeyesays]

I agree. Like the whole idea of multiple wives. In my view, I see this as Joseph Smith changing religion against God's word, to "keep up with the times". Having one life did not fit into his plan, so he "changed" religion.

Even if one accepts Smith as a Prophet, one must admit that the "Church" was changed, even if it was changed back to the original form or not. I am not LDS, myself, but I see that plainly.

My faith is a new revelation as was the Revelation of Jesus Christ and Muhammed. If Joseph Smith was a "Prophet" at all, he was a "Nabi" or prophet who calls upon the authority of the Founder of another religion for the authority for his own words.

Christ's authority was His own, as was the authority of Moses, Muhammed, or Baha`u'llah. So Those Divine Manifestations were "Rasul" (Prophets with Their Own authority).

Regards,
Scott

 

[Aqualung]

Not at all. From what you are saying, none of us can trust what God tells us, the individual. We can only trust what God tells someone else.

We can only trust changes in god's will for us (as a people) if he sends a prophet. As I have said before, I use the guidance god gives me personally a lot.

What's stopping God from having a personal relationship with me, directing my life, and having plans for me to be a Prophet?

Nothing, but you would have to be called by him to be a prophet of his church.

That would mean that what I have come to know from my relationship of God would be correct, and you are telling a prophet that he is wrong, and not believing what God wants you to believe.

No, a prophet by nature counsels the church (Christ's church) and instructes them with regard to what they should be doing as a church.

 

[Aqualung]

That's not at all what God said. He did not say, "I am your first God, and I am your last."

He said, "I am the first, and I am the last. There are no other Gods."

Period.

He didn't whisper under his breath, "for you"

He said is the first what? God (with a capital G). Not god, or lord.

 

[Aqualung]

How exactly would God have to phrase it to let you guys know he is the only one? No others.

How exactly would I have to phrase it to let you know that I believe that too! He is the only God that anybody will ever have. He is the only one.

 

[Aqualung]

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

I'm not casting stones. I'm just saying that those people have a right to be stoned.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSHALLEVER believith in Him, shall not perish but have everlasting life."

Thanks for the bible lesson.

With that in mind, what prophet told you to judge others for changing their views?

I'm not judging anybody. I'm making observation about life in general, and humankind in general. For that matter, who told you to judge me for thinking there are prophets, and stuff like that? Wait, weren't you the one a couple of sentences ago who said that he who is without sin cast the first stone? No, couldn't have been...

As far as I'm concerned, Jesus is the greatest Prophet we have ever been given.

Indeed he was. And He was the one who set up the foundation of prophets and apostles. I would think you, who believes Jesus is the greatest Prophet, would believe him when he said that's how his Church runs.

I follow his word.

Appearantly not the ones about prophets.

I believe that Jesus loved all and could forgive all.

As do I.

What business is it of any of ours if someone has pre-marital sex, or was divorced, or whatever?

None. Taht's why I wasn't asking you if you have had premarital sex, or asking you if you got a divorce, or asking you whatever. I was making a general statement about people in general. That's not judging.

 

[Aqualung]

Ahhh, well that explains it. I believe Joseph Smith to be a false prophet (no offense). I see him being exactly what this thread is against. Someone who changed beliefs with no direction from God. In my opinion, God's word no longer applied to Joseph Smith's life and he wanted to change religion "to keep with the times" so that's what he did. I do not see him as being an actual prophet unto the Lord.

I set up whole threads about that maybe a month ago. You were surprisingly silent in those ones. Maybe you'd like to check those out again?

 

[Aqualung]

Did Joseph Smith not call himself a Prophet? Did Joseph Smith not change the church from what it was before he came?

He restored it to what it was when the original 12 were still walking the earth.

 

[Aqualung]

I agree. Like the whole idea of multiple wives. In my view, I see this as Joseph Smith changing religion against God's word, to "keep up with the times". Having one life did not fit into his plan, so he "changed" religion.

Ah, and I suppose that's what david and solomon and those guys did?

 

[Quiddity]

How exactly would I have to phrase it to let you know that I believe that too! He is the only God that anybody will ever have. He is the only one.

Stop playing word games Aqualung, please. You know exactly what I mean and that pdoel, Popeyesays, and I do not think there is "other gods" in the sense that you mean it.

 

[Aqualung]

Stop playing word games Aqualung, please. You know exactly what I mean and that pdoel, Popeyesays, and I do not think there is "other gods" in the sense that you mean it.

Yes, I know what you guys mean. I'm trying to tell you what I mean. You don't have to tell me a billion times that you believe it means that. What games am I playing? You seem to be the ones playing games. Trying to get me to admit something like that just because you say it a whole bunch of times? Is that the game? ARe you hoping that if you say it just once more, I might cave in and say, "Yes, you're right, you were always right. Now, baptise me into RC!" because I'm not going to do that. You might want to give up your game.

 

[Katzpur]

Fair enough. But keep in mind that this is all foreign to a) early [and most all] christianity b) early [and all] Judaic beliefs. So I think I stand firm in dicrediting such beliefs.

Ah, there's that wonderful word again, Victor... "early." Dare I ask the ever pressing question?

 

[Katzpur]

What about the Prophet Jesus Christ? Didn't He speak the word of God? What about what he told us?

Are you saying that you don't think we believe Jesus' words? We believe everything He ever said.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSHALLEVER believith in Him, shall not perish but have everlasting life."

With that in mind, what prophet told you to judge others for changing their views?

In my opinion (okay -- so I'm biased), the LDS people are far less judgmental than most other Christians. I mean, we're not the ones picketing when other denominations dedicate a new cathedral or church. We're not the ones making movies designed to misrepresent and ridicule the beliefs other faiths hold sacred. We're not the ones creating hundreds of websites trashing other religions. But this is, after all, a debate forum. And the discussion is whether or not it's okay for men to change their church's doctrines to "keep up with the times." That's all we're doing here.

As far as I'm concerned, Jesus is the greatest Prophet we have ever been given. I follow his word. I believe that Jesus loved all and could forgive all.

What business is it of any of ours if someone has pre-marital sex, or was divorced, or whatever? Who are we to judge?

I totally agree. I would not presume to condemn anybody because of such things. I'll leave that up to God.

 

[Katzpur]

You know exactly what I mean and that pdoel, Popeyesays, and I do not think there is "other gods" in the sense that you mean it.

Just out of curiosity, though, who do you believe the "gods" were in these verses:

Deuteronomy 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward…

Joshua 22:22 The Lord God of gods, the Lord God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the LORD…

 

[Roland]

And Smith and Young were color prejudice. How could they be prophets, unless you think God is prejudice. How is being color prejudice a change for the good? You still have a lilly white church.

 

[Popeyesays]

He restored it to what it was when the original 12 were still walking the earth.

I would contend that the 12 could not be re-appointed if Jesus did not do it Himself. All it did was create a new administration for the church and CALL it a renewal. My opinion is my own, of course.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Katzpur]

And Smith and Young were color prejudice. How could they be prophets, unless you think God is prejudice. How is being color prejudice a change for the good?

Roland, Joseph Smith personally ordained black men to the priesthood. I'm not going to condone anything Brigham Young said about blacks. He can take that up with God. But, just in case you didn't know, we don't require perfection of our prophets. They are human beings and human beings have faults.

Incidentally, Moses killed a man. How could he have been a prophet?

You still have a lilly white church.

Really? Tell that to the quarter of a million black members in Africa alone.

 

[Popeyesays]

Roland, Joseph Smith personally ordained black men to the priesthood. I'm not going to condone anything Brigham Young said about blacks. He can take that up with God. But, just in case you didn't know, we don't require perfection of our prophets. They are human beings and human beings have faults.

This is quite true of Joseph Smith - he seemed to have been remarkably color-blind for his day and age.

Most of the schisms of the LDS Church can be rightfully laid at the feet of Brigham Young - which to me shows that there was no clearly defined succession of authority in Joseph Smith's movement. Muhammed attempted to do so, but was thwarted by Abu Bakr, and Umar creating the Caliphate when Muhammed had intended Ali to be the first Imam.
In my faith the succession of authority was made clear in the Testament of Baha`u'llah and the Kitab`i Aqdas (Most Holy Book), that authority was maintained through the Will and Testament of Abdu'l Baha, between Abdu'l Baha and Baha`u'llah the mechanism and institution of the Universal House of Justice was established.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Katzpur]

Did Joseph Smith not call himself a Prophet? Did Joseph Smith not change the church from what it was before he came? You can call it a restoration to what was before, but it is still a change from what it was when Joseph Smith opened his mouth to speak.

Yes, he absolutely did change it from what it was in 1830. The whole issue here is whether or not he did so under direction from God or of his own accord. And that's the issue that we could debate from now until the end of the world. The events he said took place in his life either did or did not happen. There are really no shades of gray or other options. Obviously, to those of us who believe him, he was a true prophet, as "legitimate" and "real" as any of the Old Testament prophets. To those who don't believe him, he's a fraud. This is something that cannot be decided by debate.

 

[Aqualung]

I would contend that the 12 could not be re-appointed if Jesus did not do it Himself. All it did was create a new administration for the church and CALL it a renewal. My opinion is my own, of course.

Regards,
Scott

I would contend that Christ did call the other twelve, and continues to call the apostles when they die.