Components of a Self

[Etritonakin]

I have edited this post to make it less confusing.
I created the thread in haste -and the original post was not written in such a manner as to focus on the intended subject.


What are the individual steps -in order -to becoming a self-aware, intelligent, creative self?

(As we have many examples of life forms on earth -from simple to complex and more capable -perhaps we can understand these steps thoroughly by these examples -regardless of why we might be interested)

 

[Bird123]

We are made in the image and likeness of God.

Some claim otherwise, but... We are selves as God is a self -though God is greater.

I have been considering how a self is made up -and what must precede what.

Our complex selves are based on simple interactions in various arrangements.

Simple components which interact are -in the most basic sense -aware of each other.

That simple awareness is the basis of our complex awareness.

"Evolution" is a process which produces selves -which in turn produce selves -from basic to complex -within a closed system -so we were built in a step-by-step process,never though we become aware as already-complex selves.

(The fact that it mass-produces many selves which support each other's existence -even as they compete for the limited resources -and increase in capability -but those selves have no knowledgeable input concerning their own design -causes me to think a greater self is at work.)

Anyway -my question is whether or not anyone has identified the individual steps toward becoming a complex "self" -from awareness -processing and memory -to self-awareness -the capability of referring to one's self as "I" -to creativity, etc....

Seems you are leaving one important factor out because you are looking for all your answers based solely on the physical laws of this universe. We are Spiritual beings in our true natures. Self or awareness has never come from the physical. Our bodies are no more than our transportation in this physical universe. On the other hand. the limits of our physical body do limit our capabilities to a certain extent. These are parameters that insure we will confront the lessons we are to learn in this lifetime.

 

[Etritonakin]

Seems you are leaving one important factor out because you are looking for all your answers based solely on the physical laws of this universe. We are Spiritual beings in our true natures. Self or awareness has never come from the physical. Our bodies are no more than our transportation in this physical universe. On the other hand. the limits of our physical body do limit our capabilities to a certain extent. These are parameters that insure we will confront the lessons we are to learn in this lifetime.

I was just thinking about that.

Define spiritual.

I do not believe the spiritual is disconnected from the physical.
Anything which actually exists is "material" to the situation.

If one believes our selves are basically spiritual, the spiritual component does rely on the physical in the case of humans being humans -or spirits interfacing with the physical universe -and the makeup of a spiritual self would be the same -only not subject to the same physical laws which we are as physical humans.

If basically spiritual -what is spirit -and how is it arranged as a self?
How does it think,more member, plan, etc....

We are subject to the laws which govern the atoms, etc., because we are composed of atoms. We may possess a "spirit" -but it has no interface when our body dies or to lesser degrees when it malfunctions. The "spirit" is what allows us to decide upon the configuration of the physical -and to change it -but only to the degree that we are of an arrangement which allows it -and this applies to the spirit as well as the flesh.

When our "atomic" arrangement decomposes, our spirit returns to God -but that is not to say it is "immaterial" in the broadest sense -is not "composed" of something -or does not have an arrangement.

Biblically, our "vile body" will decompose, but our spirits will be put within an improved body/interface -which will be of some sort of "working" which will allow for creative power similar to that which allowed the Word to create all things and "subdue all things unto himself".

Phil 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself

Though our spirit can be separated from our physical body, the spirit -our "person" -is of an arrangement which can be stored -as we are not what we once were -and grow and mature "spiritually" over time. That arrangement may be composed of "spirit" -and/or may be an emergent pattern of that which is above/before the physical.

In other words, "spirit" is something -but what is it -and how is it arranged as a person who inhabits a physical body?

The questions and answers are the same -but on a different level.

When "our spirit" is put within that improved "glorious" body -essentially composed of -an arrangement of -"spirit", we will then BE spirits.

John 3:3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

We are made in the image and likeness of God.

Some claim otherwise, but... We are selves as God is a self -though God is greater.

I have been considering how a self is made up -and what must precede what.

Our complex selves are based on simple interactions in various arrangements.

Simple components which interact are -in the most basic sense -aware of each other.

That simple awareness is the basis of our complex awareness.

"Evolution" is a process which produces selves -which in turn produce selves -from basic to complex -within a closed system -so we were built in a step-by-step process,never though we become aware as already-complex selves.

(The fact that it mass-produces many selves which support each other's existence -even as they compete for the limited resources -and increase in capability -but those selves have no knowledgeable input concerning their own design -causes me to think a greater self is at work.)

Anyway -my question is whether or not anyone has identified the individual steps toward becoming a complex "self" -from awareness -processing and memory -to self-awareness -the capability of referring to one's self as "I" -to creativity, etc....

Although I disagree of being in the image of god; that sounds rather, odd. However, a logical question would be if you are made in the image of god, how would you ever know yourself or ask anything about yourself for answers when you are in an image of a god with whom is so complex he goes beyond mystery? If you compare yourself to god as his image, how do you expect to know the components of self; that's like learning the components of god.

Is that possible?

 

[Etritonakin]

Although I disagree of being in the image of god; that sounds rather, odd. However, a logical question would be if you are made in the image of god, how would you ever know yourself or ask anything about yourself for answers when you are in an image of a god with whom is so complex he goes beyond mystery? If you compare yourself to god as his image, how do you expect to know the components of self; that's like learning the components of god.

Is that possible?

Biblically, it is written that the things of God are (at least basically) apparent in what was made.

Also, it is written that it is the glory of God to conceal a matter -and the glory of kings to seek out a matter.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Biblically, it is written that the things of God are (at least basically) apparent in what was made.

I don't understand. Does this define god?

Also, it is written that it is the glory of God to conceal a matter -and the glory of kings to seek out a matter.

Who are the glory of kings? If it's humans, how would we unconceal the glory of god; and if we can't and he is in our image, how can we unconceal ourselves?

 

[Bird123]

I was just thinking about that.

Define spiritual.

I do not believe the spiritual is disconnected from the physical.
Anything which actually exists is "material" to the situation.

If one believes our selves are basically spiritual, the spiritual component does rely on the physical in the case of humans being humans -or spirits interfacing with the physical universe -and the makeup of a spiritual self would be the same -only not subject to the same physical laws which we are as physical humans.

If basically spiritual -what is spirit -and how is it arranged as a self?
How does it think,more member, plan, etc....

We are subject to the laws which govern the atoms, etc., because we are composed of atoms. We may possess a "spirit" -but it has no interface when our body dies or to lesser degrees when it malfunctions. The "spirit" is what allows us to decide upon the configuration of the physical -and to change it -but only to the degree that we are of an arrangement which allows it -and this applies to the spirit as well as the flesh.

When our "atomic" arrangement decomposes, our spirit returns to God -but that is not to say it is "immaterial" in the broadest sense -is not "composed" of something -or does not have an arrangement.

Biblically, our "vile body" will decompose, but our spirits will be put within an improved body/interface -which will be of some sort of "working" which will allow for creative power similar to that which allowed the Word to create all things and "subdue all things unto himself".

Phil 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself

Though our spirit can be separated from our physical body, the spirit -our "person" -is of an arrangement which can be stored -as we are not what we once were -and grow and mature "spiritually" over time. That arrangement may be composed of "spirit" -and/or may be an emergent pattern of that which is above/before the physical.

In other words, "spirit" is something -but what is it -and how is it arranged as a person who inhabits a physical body?

The questions and answers are the same -but on a different level.

When "our spirit" is put within that improved "glorious" body -essentially composed of -an arrangement of -"spirit", we will then BE spirits.

John 3:3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

We are spiritual beings in our true natures. I have direct experience to this. Seek out the very youngest of children. Many can tell the difference. With so much sensory input, it is not long after being in this physical world that we are seduced into thinking that is all there is.

Discover who you really are; Go to a quiet, dark, comfortable room. close your eyes and focus inward. Block out all external sensory input. Say to yourself. It's Me. You already know who you are. Perhaps this will remind you.

The connection between us and our physical bodies is made in the brain. It is made after birth when long term memories become possible.

 

[Etritonakin]

We are spiritual beings in our true natures. I have direct experience to this. Seek out the very youngest of children. Many can tell the difference. With so much sensory input, it is not long after being in this physical world that we are seduced into thinking that is all there is.

Discover who you really are; Go to a quiet, dark, comfortable room. close your eyes and focus inward. Block out all external sensory input. Say to yourself. It's Me. You already know who you are. Perhaps this will remind you.

The connection between us and our physical bodies is made in the brain. It is made after birth when long term memories become possible.

How are you able to say anything to yourself? How can you remember yourself?

When you literally hear yourself talking to yourself -but not with your mouth or ears -it is by what is called the aural loop, which essentially bypasses the necessity of using your own mouth and ears.
On a deeper level, the fact that you can address yourself at all is essentially by a logical loop which allows you to essentially have an imaginary external perspective of yourself which is actually internal.

Do you believe that which is "spiritual" is by definition unknowable?

 

[Etritonakin]

I don't understand. Does this define god?



Who are the glory of kings? If it's humans, how would we unconceal the glory of god; and if we can't and he is in our image, how can we unconceal ourselves?

If someone makes something, it says something about that one.
Something can be known of that one by what was made by that one.

Yes -Humans -by learning and experiencing.

God does not mind being known -or things being known -but he is very careful when he reveals things and himself -partly because we presently use knowledge for evil -and partly because God wants to put forth effort and create a desire to know -making us stronger and more capable selves in the process.

 

[Bird123]

How are you able to say anything to yourself? How can you remember yourself?

Discovery requires you to venture into Undiscovered Country to Discover what actually is. True Discovery is never served up on a plate. Seems you have a good starting point. Where do you go from here?

 

[Etritonakin]

Discovery requires you to venture into Undiscovered Country to Discover what actually is. True Discovery is never served up on a plate. Seems you have a good starting point. Where do you go from here?

If the spiritual cannot be understood -nowhere.

Note edit of above post

 

[Bird123]

If the spiritual cannot be understood -nowhere.

Note edit of above post

Nothing can be understood without the effort to understand it. Discovery takes Work!!

 

[Etritonakin]

Nothing can be understood without the effort to understand it. Discovery takes Work!!

So what is it you think I am neglecting to consider?
What is this spiritual thing -can you describe it?

If a "self" begins with spirit -how is spirit arranged into a self -or is all spirit a complex self?

 

[LuisDantas]

Anyway -my question is whether or not anyone has identified the individual steps toward becoming a complex "self" -from awareness -processing and memory -to self-awareness -the capability of referring to one's self as "I" -to creativity, etc....

You have just made one such description. Do you mean to ask something else?

Perhaps something about the state of the art , leading theories, or best or most intriguing available knowledge in the area?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If we weren't taught that people are known by what they make, a Lion could have created a Human Being out of pure imagination and we'd think that the author is human when he's not. I've written a couple of poems and readers actually thought that I fell and lost my life in the same day with roses left on my pillow to show it. Mary Higgins Clark and her Sister rights alike and both best sellers but it's hard to tell the difference between the two.

God wrote the Quran and the Bible and both believers want me to know this as if when I did read the quran and bible it told me about the author. It did not. The Quran told me about Muhammad and how he was inspired by god to write what he did. The Bible most definitely didn't tell me god wrote it. Multiple writers had their spin on how god talked to them and events to where without believer's interpretations, I'd be left withh a smorgasboarg of writings from authors about god. Though, it tells me a bit about the authors especially the gospels because you can see each person's spin on the same event. It doesn't tell me a thing about god, though.

Experience taught me about god.

God does not mind being known -or things being known -but he is very careful when he reveals things and himself -partly because we presently use knowledge for evil -and partly because God wants to put forth effort and create a desire to know -making us stronger and more capable selves in the process.

Let me ask because all christians talk like this and even people who become christians automatically talk like this, do you speak as if you know what god says all the time? The way you speak is as if you know god so well that you speak for him rather than about him. Another example is when a christian uses "dont you understand the grace from the glory of god?" which could be said non-poetically. "Do you understand god's grace?"

Always wondered why you guys talk like that. Even Muslims and Jews don't talk like that. Muslims seem to during prayer and among themselves as far I witnessed.

 

[Etritonakin]

You have just made one such description. Do you mean to ask something else?

Perhaps something about the state of the art , leading theories, or best or most intriguing available knowledge in the area?

Those are like a few stops on a billion-mile trip -and perhaps not in order.

It is an interesting study for fields such as artificial intelligence -but I am personally wondering whether or not God developed to become more complex -and how that might have happened. To God, we would essentially be artificial intelligence -and perhaps the steps which led to self-awareness of life on earth by many individuals is similar to God becoming more complex as one.

 

[Etritonakin]

If we weren't taught that people are known by what they make, a Lion could have created a Human Being out of pure imagination and we'd think that the author is human when he's not. I've written a couple of poems and readers actually thought that I fell and lost my life in the same day with roses left on my pillow to show it. Mary Higgins Clark and her Sister rights alike and both best sellers but it's hard to tell the difference between the two.

God wrote the Quran and the Bible and both believers want me to know this as if when I did read the quran and bible it told me about the author. It did not. The Quran told me about Muhammad and how he was inspired by god to write what he did. The Bible most definitely didn't tell me god wrote it. Multiple writers had their spin on how god talked to them and events to where without believer's interpretations, I'd be left withh a smorgasboarg of writings from authors about god. Though, it tells me a bit about the authors especially the gospels because you can see each person's spin on the same event. It doesn't tell me a thing about god, though.

Experience taught me about god.



Let me ask because all christians talk like this and even people who become christians automatically talk like this, do you speak as if you know what god says all the time? The way you speak is as if you know god so well that you speak for him rather than about him. Another example is when a christian uses "dont you understand the grace from the glory of god?" which could be said non-poetically. "Do you understand god's grace?"

Always wondered why you guys talk like that. Even Muslims and Jews don't talk like that. Muslims seem to during prayer and among themselves as far I witnessed.

Yes -experiencing this life teaches more about God more deeply than words -though words can tell what is presently beyond our ability to experience.
Many believe that God had certain people write certain words.
I believe that is true of the bible, but by reading those words and seeing them as true by experience.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes -experiencing this life teaches more about God more deeply than words -though words can tell what is presently beyond our ability to experience.
Many believe that God had certain people write certain words.
I believe that is true of the bible, but by reading those words and seeing them as true by experience.

I don't know. I've had experiences with "god" and if I wrote them down, they'd be off. If I wrote it in poetry, paint, or draw it, it would be more accurate but just writing it, it wouldn't be. That's why I feel experiences are the key to knowing god because unless we can write down our experiences though abstract language, words just don't cut it if talking of it literally.

That's why when I read the bible and quran, I can't find god in it but people's experiences with god. Since they are so drastically different, why would we think they have the authority to talk for go when god speaks to you directly? Anyway, it's always been a pet peeve about the sacred-authority of text. I love reading but I never put it on the highest shelf or make sure no dust flies over it.

I read earlier, god talks to you through the bible. When you pray, you talk directly to god. So basically, if you ask god a question, the answer is somewhere in scripture.

I never buyed that from my experience but then, who cares about human experiences after 2,000 years ago. Time invalidated our experiences or something? People

 

[LuisDantas]

Those are like a few stops on a billion-mile trip -and perhaps not in order.

It is an interesting study for fields such as artificial intelligence -but I am personally wondering whether or not God developed to become more complex -and how that might have happened. To God, we would essentially be artificial intelligence -and perhaps the steps which led to self-awareness of life on earth by many individuals is similar to God becoming more complex as one.

You are welcome to write your god-referential narrative if you want to, but that would not make it objectively accurate, and certainly not "complete".

You may well want a certain specific style of description, and that is fair enough, but let's please not pretend that there is any objective completeness in that.

 

[Etritonakin]

You are welcome to write your god-referential narrative if you want to, but that would not make it objectively accurate, and certainly not "complete".

You may well want a certain specific style of description, and that is fair enough, but let's please not pretend that there is any objective completeness in that.

Huh?

What the bleep are you talking about?

The actual description of how self-awareness, etc., happens is the subject.

When did I say I wanted anything? When did I say anything was complete?

I can have my perspective and still be objective.