Complicated Theology and Liturgy

[Ellen Brown]

There are groups whose rules around their belief systems are dismayingly complicated. In my own frustration, I'd like to submit the idea that perhaps all this dancin around is a thinly veiled way to avoid actually engaging in the seeking of God.

I'm thinking about the use of denomination peculiar buzz words. From Baptists to Catholics to Mormons and others it is everywhere I look. Don't get smug though because I think that Jews and Muslims are as bad at this as anyone.

And, I think that such things are satanic and used to bring chaos to the children.

 

[Nakosis]

There are groups whose rules around their belief systems are dismayingly complicated. In my own frustration, I'd like to submit the idea that perhaps all this dancin around is a thinly veiled way to avoid actually engaging in the seeking of God.

I'm thinking about the use of denomination peculiar buzz words. From Baptists to Catholics to Mormons and others it is everywhere I look. Don't get smug though because I think that Jews and Muslims are as bad at this as anyone.

And, I think that such things are satanic and used to bring chaos to the children.

Do you have examples?
Just curious, want to understand.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Do you have examples?
Just curious, want to understand.

The Jews have some 600+ rules they try to adhere to. The Muslims have just lots of rules, most in the form of Fatwas. The Mormons have some 138 declarations in their Doctrine and Covenants plus so many others that I haven't attempted to count. It just goes on and on.

To be fair, perhaps all this rulemaking gives people a sense of security? Or perhaps with all this 'plethora' of regulations, men become their own God???

I've often heard from those that should know, that Alcoholics, Dope Addicts, and those who have endured just lots of abuse and trauma often go to very constricting belief systems so they can feel secure. I wonder if those who get themselves into Master/slave, or Co-dependent situations are just looking for security?

 

[whirlingmerc]

There are groups whose rules around their belief systems are dismayingly complicated. In my own frustration, I'd like to submit the idea that perhaps all this dancin around is a thinly veiled way to avoid actually engaging in the seeking of God.

I'm thinking about the use of denomination peculiar buzz words. From Baptists to Catholics to Mormons and others it is everywhere I look. Don't get smug though because I think that Jews and Muslims are as bad at this as anyone.

And, I think that such things are satanic and used to bring chaos to the children.

Jesus said 'I am the truth"

Ultimately truth points to things simple enough for a child to understand
but it can have aspects that adults can spend forever exploring

Cold facts and theological syllogisms does not make 'saving faith'
on the other hand Jesus did say 'those who worship God must do it in spirit and in truth'
emotions and truth come together There is a place for a God glorifying love of truth

 

[PureX]

There are groups whose rules around their belief systems are dismayingly complicated. In my own frustration, I'd like to submit the idea that perhaps all this dancin around is a thinly veiled way to avoid actually engaging in the seeking of God.

I'm thinking about the use of denomination peculiar buzz words. From Baptists to Catholics to Mormons and others it is everywhere I look. Don't get smug though because I think that Jews and Muslims are as bad at this as anyone.

And, I think that such things are satanic and used to bring chaos to the children.

Most of it is intended to make and keep the "us vs them" factor intact. People hold themselves together by separating themselves from everyone else. It's illogical, I know, especially with religions, but it's written into our DNA, and we can't seem to help ourselves.

 

[whirlingmerc]

Most of it is intended to make and keep the "us vs them" factor intact. People hold themselves together by separating themselves from everyone else. It's illogical, I know, especially with religions, but it's written into our DNA, and we can't seem to help ourselves.

God is simple yet incomprehensible. The depths of God cannot be reached.

So, yes, the main things should be simple enough for a child and satisfying for adults and the subject is never exhausted not even in heaven

 

[Nakosis]

The Jews have some 600+ rules they try to adhere to. The Muslims have just lots of rules, most in the form of Fatwas. The Mormons have some 138 declarations in their Doctrine and Covenants plus so many others that I haven't attempted to count. It just goes on and on.

To be fair, perhaps all this rulemaking gives people a sense of security? Or perhaps with all this 'plethora' of regulations, men become their own God???

I've often heard from those that should know, that Alcoholics, Dope Addicts, and those who have endured just lots of abuse and trauma often go to very constricting belief systems so they can feel secure. I wonder if those who get themselves into Master/slave, or Co-dependent situations are just looking for security?

I suspect security has a lot to do with the appeal of certain religious beliefs to some.

It's part of why I came to question religious belief as well, different beliefs, different rules. If one is aware of these different ideas/beliefs about God, seems to me one has to roll the dice and randomly pick a belief to follow. Honestly I don't know and I don't see how "God" could expect me to know. So, because I lack any knowledge otherwise, I choose none. If there is a God and they condemn me for my honesty, so be it.

 

[Ellen Brown]

I suspect security has a lot to do with the appeal of certain religions belief to some.

It's part of why I came to question religious belief as well, different beliefs, different rules. If one is aware of these different ideas/beliefs about God, seems to me one has to roll the dice and randomly pick a belief to follow. Honestly I don't know and I don't see how "God" could expect me to know. So, because I lack any knowledge otherwise, I choose none. If there is a God and they condemn me for my honesty, so be it.

I can understand your point of view.

 

[PureX]

If one is aware of these different ideas/beliefs about God, seems to me one has to roll the dice and randomly pick a belief to follow. Honestly I don't know and I don't see how "God" could expect me to know. So, because I lack any knowledge otherwise, I choose none. If there is a God and they condemn me for my honesty, so be it.

Theism is not about what anyone knows. It's about the possibilities that are available to us because we DON'T KNOW. It's about hope, and faith, and the results of these when they're practiced in our lives. It's not about knowing anything, or not knowing anything. It's about trusting in something that we hope to be so, even though we can't know it to be so, because in doing so, the quality of our lives gets better. You're upset because you can't 'know', but you don't understand that it's your not knowing that is the greater gift! Because in your not knowing you can create a god-ideal that you want, as opposed to one being forced on you that you might not want, by 'knowledge'.

It's in our ignorance that we get to create ourselves, and create our understanding of 'reality', and even create our idealizations of "God", ... and then live by them. I think that's amazing!

 

[Nakosis]

Theism is not about what anyone knows. It's about the possibilities that are available to us because we DON'T KNOW. It's about hope, and faith, and the results of these when they're practiced in our lives. It's not about knowing anything, or not knowing anything. It's about trusting in something that we hope to be so, even though we can't know it to be so, because in doing so, the quality of our lives gets better. You're upset because you can't 'know', but you don't understand that it's your not knowing that is the greater gift! Because in your not knowing you can create a god-ideal that you want, as opposed to one being forced on you that you might not want, by 'knowledge'.

I'm not upset but I am saying why limit the possibilities? Why invest in one set of possibilities when there are so many to choose from.

It's in our ignorance that we get to create ourselves, and create our understanding of 'reality', and even create our idealizations of "God", ... and then live by them. I think that's amazing!

I've no problem with that as long as folks understand they are doing it from ignorance. Create whatever God whatever belief one fancies. Just don't impinge on my freedom to do, or not to do the same.

 

[PureX]

I'm not upset but I am saying why limit the possibilities? Why invest in one set of possibilities when there are so many to choose from.

Who is limiting the possibilities but you? Who are you letting tell you what "God" is, and isn't? God can be anything you want it to be; that you can make sense of. But YOU have to do the inventing. And YOU have to make sense of it. YOU have to find out how it works for you in your life. Or how it doesn't, and why not.

I've no problem with that as long as folks understand they are doing it from ignorance. Create whatever God whatever belief one fancies. Just don't impinge on my freedom to do, or not to do the same.

It's not possible for anyone to impinge on your god-concept, or it's application. Not unless you let them. And why would you do that?

 

[Nakosis]

Who is limiting the possibilities but you? Who are you letting tell you what "God" is, and isn't?

Religion

God can be anything you want it to be; that you can make sense of. But YOU have to do the inventing. And YOU have to make sense of it. YOU have to find out how it works for you in your life. Or how it doesn't, and why not.

Or God could be nothing at all, right?

It's not possible for anyone to impinge on your god-concept, or it's application. Not unless you let them. And why would you do that?

Exactly.

 

[PureX]

Religion

Religion is a tool box. You are the potential tool user. You are 'in charge', not the tools. What you're saying doesn't make any sense.

Or God could be nothing at all, right?

Of course, but that's irrelevant since we can't know it. What is relevant, is that the possibility of God offers us an opportunity to imagine, and to hope, and to trust in that hope through our actions, to see how doing so will effect the quality of our lives. Why would anyone reject that possibility for no reason?

 

[Nakosis]

Religion is a tool box. You are the potential tool user. You are 'in charge', not the tools. What you're saying doesn't make any sense.

Tools have a specific use. While one could try using a tool that was created for something else you are not going to get good results.

Of course, but that's irrelevant since we can't know it. What is relevant, is that the possibility of God offers us an opportunity to imagine, and to hope, and to trust in that hope through our actions, to see how doing so will effect the quality of our lives. Why would anyone reject that possibility for no reason?

One doesn't need a belief in a God to imagine possibilities. In fact, I see the use of a God as very limiting. I'm not rejecting the possibility, I just don't find it necessary for anything.

 

[PureX]

Tools have a specific use. While one could try using a tool that was created for something else you are not going to get good results.

I think you're letting a bias precede a possibility. "Confession" is one of those religious 'tools'. How is it controlling you? If it isn't working in the way you've applied it, then stop using it and try a different tool. I think you're looking for ways to dismiss the whole box of tools just because they're labeled "religious tools". And that's just not logical, nor is it going to be productive.

One doesn't need a belief in a God to imagine possibilities. In fact, I see the use of a God as very limiting.

Well, that's you own fault. You've let you bias make you accept an idealization of God that doesn't help you. That was foolish. Throw that idealization away and develop one that does help you.

I'm not rejecting the possibility, I just don't find it necessary for anything.

I believe this is called "prejudice prior to investigation". Having determined in advance that you don't "need it", it inevitably becomes "useless". This is what atheists like to call "circular reasoning" when theists do it. But perhaps it's really more akin to "the tale wagging the dog".

 

[sojourner]

There are groups whose rules around their belief systems are dismayingly complicated. In my own frustration, I'd like to submit the idea that perhaps all this dancin around is a thinly veiled way to avoid actually engaging in the seeking of God.

I'm thinking about the use of denomination peculiar buzz words. From Baptists to Catholics to Mormons and others it is everywhere I look. Don't get smug though because I think that Jews and Muslims are as bad at this as anyone.

And, I think that such things are satanic and used to bring chaos to the children.

I’m sure that some do misuse religion in order to distance themselves from God, from themselves, from others. But religion is only as complicated as YOU make it to be. Some need all the colors, some only need shades of grey. Some need a symphony and full orchestra — others only need a tin whistle. Me? I’m all over the place. Sometimes I need the orchestra, sometimes only the song of a single bird. Sometimes prayer is ritual; sometimes it is just breath.

 

[Nakosis]

I think you're letting a bias precede a possibility. "Confession" is one of those religious 'tools'. How is it controlling you? If it isn't working in the way you've applied it, then stop using it and try a different tool. I think you're looking for ways to dismiss the whole box of tools just because they're labeled "religious tools". And that's just not logical, nor is it going to be productive.

I'll assume you mean in general, so confession, guilt. I find guilt to be a very controlling mechanism.

Well, that's you own fault. You've let you bias make you accept an idealization of God that doesn't help you. That was foolish. Throw that idealization away and develop one that does help you.

Why? Don't need the help. Sure, if you need help with something, I suppose, create a concept of God to help you. Just for myself, I don't see the need. I don't know, maybe it makes you feel better. Myself, I feel fine.

I believe this is called "prejudice prior to investigation". Having determined in advance that you don't "need it", it inevitably becomes "useless". This is what atheists like to call "circular reasoning" when theists do it. But perhaps it's really more akin to "the tale wagging the dog".

What? I don't need a bullet hole in the head. Kind of cliche but, yeah a bullet hole in the head would be pretty useless. Lots of things I don't need. I see that more as cause and effect than circular reasoning though.

Let's say you don't need a bag to carry one item out of the grocery store. Are you going to use not having a bag as proof of not needing a bag? Or would you be able to determine having only one item to carry as justification for not needing a bag?

 

[PureX]

I'll assume you mean in general, so confession, guilt. I find guilt to be a very controlling mechanism.

Confession is a tool used to help people alleviate their guilt. It's also a tool for helping people identify and own up to, and stop doing things that make them feel guilty. This is why it's a long-standing, tried and tested tool. And it's why a lot of people use it.

Sure, if you need help with something, I suppose, create a concept of God to help you. Just for myself, I don't see the need. I don't know, maybe it makes you feel better. Myself, I feel fine.

Everyone gets tested sooner or later, and come up short of perfection, even the most ardent narcissists.

 

[Nakosis]

Confession is a tool used to help people alleviate their guilt. It's also a tool for helping people identify and own up to, and stop doing things that make them feel guilty. This is why it's a long-standing, tried and tested tool. And it's why a lot of people use it.

I find it easier to do away with feeling guilt altogether. I'll agree though, it's a tool some need.

Everyone gets tested sooner or later, and come up short of perfection, even the most ardent narcissists.

Yes, life tests a person on a daily basis. However if one is doing the best they can, no one can expect any better from them.

 

[PureX]

I find it easier to do away with feeling guilt altogether. I'll agree though, it's a tool some need.



Yes, life tests a person on a daily basis. However if one is doing the best they can, no one can expect any better from them.

My point all along is that theism, and religious practice, too, seem to be needed by a lot of humans. And one must assume that these are of positive use to them, as they continue to use them throughout their lives. Some of this is habit, and some of this is the lack of any other viable help, but that doesn't really change the basic issue: that theism and religion help a lot of human beings live better lives. And by "a lot", I mean a huge majority of them.

I personally have little use for religion, or for some of it's common tools. But I have found theism to be of significant positive practical use in my experience of life, and also some of the common religious practices even though I don't use them in any 'sanctioned', organized way.

Which is why I find atheism so irrational. Why reject a possibility that could be of positive use in one's life based on nothing? And then especially, why try and deny it to others simply because one has rejected it for themselves? (Religious fundamentalists are not the only 'evangelical ideologues' on the playing field, after all.)