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Communist Apologetics

Spiderman

Veteran Member
So, I recently told my Dad I'm a communist and of course he hits me with all the people communists have tortured and murdered (More than Nazi's or anyone). I didn't know what to say. Please help me out.

Let's not get any debate here. That isn't what I'm seeking. I'm trying to become versed in communist apologetics. I grew up hating Communism not realizing that I was indeed what I hated the entire time.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
I think what others are getting at is that practiced communism and the actually theory of communism are different. You need to focus on what values of communism you like. Differentiate yourself from the practiced versions. Or if you support a world practiced communism learn as to why it has changed why it has stopped the killings or why the killings were necessary. You have to know what you are defending to defend it.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
I think what others are getting at is that practiced communism and the actually theory of communism are different. You need to focus on what values of communism you like. Differentiate yourself from the practiced versions. Or if you support a world practiced communism learn as to why it has changed why it has stopped the killings or why the killings were necessary. You have to know what you are defending to defend it.

Well, the practices of Bolshevik Communism were in line with their theory, more or less.

Zapatistas and Spanish anarchists are/have been more in line with mine :D
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
So, I recently told my Dad I'm a communist and of course he hits me with all the people communists have tortured and murdered (More than Nazi's or anyone). I didn't know what to say. Please help me out.

Let's not get any debate here. That isn't what I'm seeking. I'm trying to become versed in communist apologetics. I grew up hating Communism not realizing that I was indeed what I hated the entire time.

if you accept the premise that communists were responsible for killing people there is no "easy" response to that by any measure. Though its useful to clarify what we are actually talking about- as the more specific it is, the less sensational it sounds.

the source for the most commonly cited figure of 100 million dead comes from the black book of communism. The actual figure from the book is 94 million but its often rounded up. It breaks down as follows:

65 million in China
20 million in the USSR
2 million in Cambodia
2 million in North Korea
1.7 million in ethiopia
1.5 million in afghanistan
1 million in the eastern bloc
1 million in vietnam
150,00 in latin america
10,000 deaths resulting from actions by the international communist movement and communists parties not in power.

The Black Book of Communism - Wikipedia

The reason the figures are so huge is because they include famines.
Basically famines would account for maybe a half or maybe two thirds of the total 100 million figure. But estimates of famine deaths vary wildly and there is no exact way to say how many people died. These are all educated guesses and political motivation does play a role in the figures (in both directions). Famines are part of the total figure because the government controls the food supply, so the actions of the government have a direct affect on the famine and a degree of responsibility can be attributed to communists in power for how they handled it or even caused it. Several of the above have mitigating factors such as wars and civil wars. The more serious ones like the great leap forward and the soviet famine of 1932-33 were the result of sudden collectivisation of agriculture leading to massive disruption in the food supply. In the latter case of the 1932/3 famine a reasonable case can be made that the distribution of food was restricted for ukrainians and constituted a deliberate policy of genocide.

Holodomor - Wikipedia
Holodomor genocide question - Wikipedia

Lets say you were to exclude the famines and take an approximate figure of 30-50 million for the rest. This group is much harder to argue against because it is more direct and intentional than famines. So deaths would include those from government repressions including several forced relocations of ethnic populations (technically genocide), deaths from the network of forced labour camps such as the gulag, repressing uprisings and rebellions and executions of suspected "enemies of the people" and party purges. In the latter stages (about 1960-1990) they also used individual terrorism such as bombings, etc. Cambodia under the khmer rouge is notable as arguably the single most extreme and destructive communist government in the 20th century in terms of the amount of damage inflicted on such a tiny country in the space of about three years.

Khmer Rouge - Wikipedia

Many of the communists texts made clear that they believed in the necessity of revolutionary terror as an instrument of the dictatorship of the proletariat in order to secure communist rule. The link below is probably the most direct and explicit defence of terror you'll come accross:

Leon Trotsky: Terrorism and Communism (1920)

Whether you decide to actually defend the justification of terror is up to you. But trying to find ways of doing is THE reason I loathe communism deeply even as a communist. there isn't a good answer when you get beyond the rhetoric and ask yourself sincerely what you feel. The video below is of a single individuals experiences in the north korean camps still run today.


For me, I just try to be striaght with people. Eitherway If its wrong- we have to learn from it (including the possibility of giving up communism altogether). If its right- we should consider publicly defending it. Both positions mean being truthful and taking responsibility as any person connected with this should consider. In practice however, looking people in the eye who belong to social catagories who would be killed, tortured or humilated on mass is "uncomfortable" if you'll forgive the under-statement. It puts every utopian aspiration in to a very stark perspective.

The dillemma is that going anti-communist doesn't solve the moral problem as they were as willing to kill communists in large numbers. Its one right ****ing mess to say the least and the majority of communists won't touch it as an issue for this reason. I don't have a response as I'm not sure there is one. I'm just left with the question of what principle, no matter how noble or well-intentioned, is more valuable than a person?
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
@PopeADope

If you want to challenge deaths by government practice.
How many English and Germans were killed to start democracy (revolutionary war)
How many Americans were killed to maintain democracy (civil war)
How many foreigners were killed to protect democracy (Korea/Vietnam)
Stupidest of All War War 3 was almost started because democracy was threatened. JFK and the Cuban missile crises. The communists were the realistic ones there. Would really have mattered based on today knowledge if the missiles were there.

Then there's Mexican's, Indians, Arab's ....etc. History is written by the winners and currently it is believe Democracy is winning.

Edit: Thinking about it what happened to the Indians would be genocide by today's standard's whole tribes were wiped out in the name of expansion.
 
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Spiderman

Veteran Member
How old are you?
I'm 29
I don't live with my Dad...but was just talking on the phone with him.

I have spent over a year in Catholic Religious communities and it is truly communism that they practice
I am for that lifestyle

Acts 4:32-35 can be used as evidence that the first Christians lived in a communist society. Acts 4:32-35 reads, "All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had.
And Gods grace was so powerfully at work in them all that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need."

Mark 10:21New International Version (NIV)
21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
So, I recently told my Dad I'm a communist and of course he hits me with all the people communists have tortured and murdered (More than Nazi's or anyone). I didn't know what to say. Please help me out.

Let's not get any debate here. That isn't what I'm seeking. I'm trying to become versed in communist apologetics. I grew up hating Communism not realizing that I was indeed what I hated the entire time.

I remember a scene in the movie Nicholas and Alexandra where it's after the Revolution and the deposed Tsar is describing his Bolshevik captors:

I've never known a heart without some murder in it. I made these men. They are our Russians. I am responsible for what they are. I let them starve. I put them in prisons. And I shot them. If there's hatred in them now, I put it there.

I think that, in order to understand communism, one has to look at what existed prior to their coming to power. In countries like Russia and China, their histories are quite rich, lengthy, and even somewhat intertwined (both were ruled by the Mongol Empire at various points in their history). I'm not judging them in any way, but as far as how they relate to their own history and how it was under communist rulers like Stalin and Mao - that's for them to sort out on their own.

I do have the utmost respect for the people in both of those countries, Russia and China. They are strong, tough, resourceful, intelligent, and a powerful capacity to endure hardship and adversity, which they've proven time and again this past century. I honestly believe that the world would be far better off today if we had taken an honest approach at friendship with those regimes, rather than hostility and enmity. Maybe they went too far, maybe we went too far. Maybe both sides had too many stubborn hotheads, but thankfully, cooler heads still ultimately prevailed and we avoided all-out warfare.

One might also consider the conditions of some of the other countries where communism gained a significant following. It's the same old story - the majority of people living in abject squalor, poverty, starvation - while a relative few at the top live in luxury. And they imprison, torture, and murder dissenters. It doesn't really take a rocket scientist to figure out that some people living under such conditions might actually want to fight back.

When Westerners talk about communism, they have a tendency of overcomplicating the obvious. When I was growing up, people would talk about communism like it was some sort of mysterious, sinister, evil force which was going to grip us all. Back then, people believed in all kinds of communist plots and conspiracies out to undermine the American way of life.

There were some who thought the Beatles were a communist plot.

There were also fears that the Russians or Chinese could attack us or invade at any time, so we had to be constantly prepared for the worst. That's where communism also had a different angle from our point of view. It wasn't merely a question of what kind of ideology or political/economic system communism advocated domestically. It was also associated with loyalty to a foreign power which was hostile to our own country.

As for your dad mentioning the atrocities committed by some of these regimes, there's probably very little point in trying to defend the indefensible. There are things which have been done by my own government which are indefensible - even though we've had a supposedly "free" and "democratic" system. Some might argue that, even despite whatever has been done by Western governments, communists are/were still worse in terms of the vast number of victims.

But then, does that tell the whole story? Based on the West's own geopolitical aspirations, any and all non-communist regimes were considered favorable to Western interests, even if these non-communist regimes were not exactly free or democratic (or even all that capitalist, for that matter). That didn't matter, just as long as they weren't communist. But it also involved a great deal of interventionism in other country's civil wars - war by proxy. We've supported some rather despicable regimes and factions in the name of "freedom," but I guess that was better than letting them fall into the clutches of the Evil Empire.

But it did do a lot of damage to the world and kind of screwed things up. We're still having to deal with the consequences of all that.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Apologies - I didn't realise this thread was in the communist section. Is it not a fundamental tenet of communism that no member of society be able to own material wealth to an extent which is greater than their compatriots, and be obliged to provide for the whole rather than themselves?

Not really. Communism believes in common ownership of the means of production such as factories, tools, machines, tractors, farms, etc.

Only in the most authoritarian varieties does the government or society actually own things like your toothbrush. Communists believe that articles for consumption like the food you eat, the clothes you wear, etc are "personal property" based on the fact that a person uses them.

Basically you can own a car for your own personal use, and you can share it with someone else for free but you can't sell it or make money from it as a taxi service.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I remember a scene in the movie Nicholas and Alexandra where it's after the Revolution and the deposed Tsar is describing his Bolshevik captors:

I've never known a heart without some murder in it. I made these men. They are our Russians. I am responsible for what they are. I let them starve. I put them in prisons. And I shot them. If there's hatred in them now, I put it there.

I think that, in order to understand communism, one has to look at what existed prior to their coming to power. In countries like Russia and China, their histories are quite rich, lengthy, and even somewhat intertwined (both were ruled by the Mongol Empire at various points in their history). I'm not judging them in any way, but as far as how they relate to their own history and how it was under communist rulers like Stalin and Mao - that's for them to sort out on their own.

I do have the utmost respect for the people in both of those countries, Russia and China. They are strong, tough, resourceful, intelligent, and a powerful capacity to endure hardship and adversity, which they've proven time and again this past century. I honestly believe that the world would be far better off today if we had taken an honest approach at friendship with those regimes, rather than hostility and enmity. Maybe they went too far, maybe we went too far. Maybe both sides had too many stubborn hotheads, but thankfully, cooler heads still ultimately prevailed and we avoided all-out warfare.

One might also consider the conditions of some of the other countries where communism gained a significant following. It's the same old story - the majority of people living in abject squalor, poverty, starvation - while a relative few at the top live in luxury. And they imprison, torture, and murder dissenters. It doesn't really take a rocket scientist to figure out that some people living under such conditions might actually want to fight back.

When Westerners talk about communism, they have a tendency of overcomplicating the obvious. When I was growing up, people would talk about communism like it was some sort of mysterious, sinister, evil force which was going to grip us all. Back then, people believed in all kinds of communist plots and conspiracies out to undermine the American way of life.

There were some who thought the Beatles were a communist plot.

There were also fears that the Russians or Chinese could attack us or invade at any time, so we had to be constantly prepared for the worst. That's where communism also had a different angle from our point of view. It wasn't merely a question of what kind of ideology or political/economic system communism advocated domestically. It was also associated with loyalty to a foreign power which was hostile to our own country.

As for your dad mentioning the atrocities committed by some of these regimes, there's probably very little point in trying to defend the indefensible. There are things which have been done by my own government which are indefensible - even though we've had a supposedly "free" and "democratic" system. Some might argue that, even despite whatever has been done by Western governments, communists are/were still worse in terms of the vast number of victims.

But then, does that tell the whole story? Based on the West's own geopolitical aspirations, any and all non-communist regimes were considered favorable to Western interests, even if these non-communist regimes were not exactly free or democratic (or even all that capitalist, for that matter). That didn't matter, just as long as they weren't communist. But it also involved a great deal of interventionism in other country's civil wars - war by proxy. We've supported some rather despicable regimes and factions in the name of "freedom," but I guess that was better than letting them fall into the clutches of the Evil Empire.

But it did do a lot of damage to the world and kind of screwed things up. We're still having to deal with the consequences of all that.

Its worth breifly mentioning that there was significant support for Communist Parties in Western Europe after World War II. Mainly France and Italy....

French Communist Party - Wikipedia

Italian Communist Party - Wikipedia

But Portugal came as close to a Communist Revolution in the 1970's...

Portuguese Communist Party - Wikipedia
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I'm 29
I don't live with my Dad...but was just talking on the phone with him.

I have spent over a year in Catholic Religious communities and it is truly communism that they practice
I am for that lifestyle

Acts 4:32-35 can be used as evidence that the first Christians lived in a communist society. Acts 4:32-35 reads, "All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had.
And Gods grace was so powerfully at work in them all that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need."

Mark 10:21New International Version (NIV)
21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

The link below may be of interest. Its the catholic churches edict on (soviet-atheistic/materialist) communism from 1937.

Divini Redemptoris (March 19, 1937) | PIUS XI
 
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