Coming to Islam is coming to a polytheistic religion.

[firedragon]

That's all true, but in the context of the history of the the Hadith the verse is meaningful because much of the Hadith was rejected as false. There is reason to think that the validation of the Hadith is flawed because of it's internal inconsistency and because of the paedophile prophet story, which is refuted by the timeline of events of the life of Muhammad and Aisha.

Of course.

 

[shunyadragon]

I would like to know what polytheism you find in the Qur'an.

I do not consider the Quran to be polytheistic, the mention of the devil may be interpreted as a lesser God, and some view it in the Jewish and Christian scriptures.

 

[ClimbingTheLadder]

the mention of the devil may be interpreted as a lesser God

But "the devil" is not a being in the Qur'an, it's a term which refers to a kind of archetypal (to use Jungian terminology) trait - e.g. Iblis was shaytan but so was pharaoh, both figures died a long time ago, there are always shaytans around in Islamic thought, it's a concept that does have certain metaphysical connotations but it's no singular being entity or person. The Islamic view is closer to Judaism on this, despite differing about the actuality.

All of Islam is pretty consistent with God being God alone.
There can be no Islamic dualism of any kind, it fundamentally contradicts the most defining doctrine in Islam (Tawhid).

 

[ClimbingTheLadder]

i believe a person who has become adept at perceiving the word of God (like me) can see that the Hadiths are not the word of God.

Of which no Muslim in history has ever believed such a notion, as Hadiths are history (albeit every Prophet does have their symbolic qualities, which is just a given). Only the Qur'an is the word of God and no Muslim ever disagrees with this (albeit some Ismailis find the semantics there to be lacking but that's another topic).

 

[firedragon]

I do not consider the Quran to be polytheistic, the mention of the devil may be interpreted as a lesser God, and some view it in the Jewish and Christian scriptures.

Okay i get it.

But the sun and moon letter makes a difference in the mention of satan. Also, in some places of the Quran satan is mentioned in but it means what it means, not satan, but the root meaning of the word.

Also, there is no Satan in the Jewish sripture. Thats a separate issue.

In the Quran, satan was a jin, and jin is the progeny of Gods creation. So i cannot see the idea of a lesser God, although i understand what you said i just thought i shall point this out.

 

[firedragon]

Of which no Muslim in history has ever believed such a notion, as Hadiths are history (albeit every Prophet does have their symbolic qualities, which is just a given). Only the Qur'an is the word of God and no Muslim ever disagrees with this (albeit some Ismailis find the semantics there to be lacking but that's another topic).

Brother. With all due respect, there are beliefs in most Mufti's or Muhaddiths or jurists and what ever stream of thought you would like to pursue that there are some hadith that are considered God's word given to the prophet. They are considered sacred ahadith and they are very very well known.

 

[shunyadragon]

Okay i get it.

But the sun and moon letter makes a difference in the mention of satan. Also, in some places of the Quran satan is mentioned in but it means what it means, not satan, but the root meaning of the word.

Also, there is no Satan in the Jewish scripture. Thats a separate issue.

Not necessarily so, a separate issue, but than again not the central issue of polytheism in Jewish scripture. We can get into this more if you like, but yes polytheism and henotheism is a theme in the Pentateuch.

[quote[ In the Quran, satan was a jin, and jin is the progeny of Gods creation. So i cannot see the idea of a lesser God, although i understand what you said i just thought i shall point this out.

The concept of lesser Gods are common in the Bible also, and cannot be ruled out in the traditional beliefs and roots of Islamic culture.

 

[firedragon]

The concept of lesser Gods are common in the Bible also, and cannot be ruled out in the traditional beliefs and roots of Islamic culture.

Ah, but that has nothing to do with the Qur'an. You see you have cited culture here.

 

[ClimbingTheLadder]

Brother. With all due respect, there are beliefs in most Mufti's or Muhaddiths or jurists and what ever stream of thought you would like to pursue

Sorry, what are?

that there are some hadith that are considered God's word given to the prophet. They are considered sacred ahadith and they are very very well known.

Yes, I know various Hadith Qudsi, it's an interesting subject. However they're not usually considered "the word of god" in the manner of what the Qur'an is, they're usually understood as extra-aspects related to the revelation of the Qur'an that are more related to Sunnah than anything else.
Some may be considered authoritative but it'd be heretical to consider then to the extent you are saying.
I think the content of most Qudsi is also much closer to Sunnah than Qur'an too, the style doesn't match at all.
If anything I'd draw a comparison between Hadith Qudsi and the certain frame of discourse (or sermon) found in some of the Christian 'gospel' texts, of Jesus explicitly; where he often seems to be talking not on his own accord as a prophet, but talking on behalf of God.
There is quite a distinction though between Hadith Qudsi to regular Hadith both in comparison to Qur'an.

Anyway...

 

[firedragon]

Sorry, what are?



Yes, I know various Hadith Qudsi, it's an interesting subject. However they're not usually considered "the word of god" in the manner of what the Qur'an is, they're usually understood as extra-aspects related to the revelation of the Qur'an that are more related to Sunnah than anything else.
Some may be considered authoritative but it'd be heretical to consider then to the extent you are saying.
I think the content of most Qudsi is also much closer to Sunnah than Qur'an too, the style doesn't match at all.
If anything I'd draw a comparison between Hadith Qudsi and the certain frame of discourse (or sermon) found in some of the Christian 'gospel' texts, of Jesus explicitly; where he often seems to be talking not on his own accord as a prophet, but talking on behalf of God.
There is quite a distinction though between Hadith Qudsi to regular Hadith both in comparison to Qur'an.

Anyway...

Brother. I didn’t say Hadith quasi are Gods word. You should read what I said again.

 

[shunyadragon]

Ah, but that has nothing to do with the Qur'an. You see you have cited culture here.

Culture, and by the way languages, has a great deal to do with the scripture and beliefs of every religion of the world. The window as to how people believe is moat definitely through the window of culture, which includes many of the differences between religions.

 

[Link]

The wording is too strong. It would be more accurate to consider Islam a corrupted rather than a false religion and that many Muslims in some respect are misguided.

Christianity and Judaism were founded from God yet Quran doesn't call them true religions, although, they have a basis from God's book.

 

[Link]

Brother. With all due respect, there are beliefs in most Mufti's or Muhaddiths or jurists and what ever stream of thought you would like to pursue that there are some hadith that are considered God's word given to the prophet. They are considered sacred ahadith and they are very very well known.

Sacred hadiths exist, but they are really Prophet and Imams paraphrasing Quran. Most people don't understand this. For example, in a du'a, it is said God said to his servants "I am your service and help". This can be a summary of the spirit of Quran or a lot of it.

The words to that effect don't exist. Hadith qudsi in my view, is the Nabi (s) paraphrasing reflections over Quran, saying God says this and that. Or one of the Ahlulbayt (a) paraphrasing God.

I've done it in essays as well. Paraphrase what I understand God is saying in Quran or a verse or chapter.

In this sense, they aren't actually more "sacred" than other hadiths of the Prophet (s).

 

[firedragon]

Culture, and by the way languages, has a great deal to do with the scripture and beliefs of every religion of the world. The window as to how people believe is moat definitely through the window of culture, which includes many of the differences between religions.

Brother. If you speak about a particular book and what it says, you have to quote it. Its rather simple.

 

[Link]

Culture, and by the way languages, has a great deal to do with the scripture and beliefs of every religion of the world. The window as to how people believe is moat definitely through the window of culture, which includes many of the differences between religions.

Culture and language is half the battle. By English definition of Prophets, Prophethood didn't end, and can't. Sarah was a Prophetess by English language for example.

Nabi does not equate to Prophet really even though it's very close to the word Hebrew Navi, and seems to be the same. Nabi means one who received a tiding/news/information.

A Messenger means one with delivers a message

Resalah didn't end after Mohammad (s), and the Mahdi (a) is a Rasool. What ended was Nubuwa which means receiving divine revelation for humanity from God by a person who is sent with that.

Both Nubuwa and Resalah are things sent by God with his chosen ones, Nubuwa being God's own revelation and Resalah being the task of the Messenger.

Almost all Messengers were Nabis and all Nabis were Messengers. The exception happens when it's better to not reveal a text that won't be upheld and would become a source of discord - this is the cases of Non-Nabi Messenger. The other exception is a Nabi that is not a Messenger, and this is a rare case, where the people spread the message, keep it intact, and God graces them further with revelation but there is no need to revive or deliver the clear message because the message is there.

Also, in general God sends men only, but Sarah, Mariam, Fatima, they too were leaders who guide by God's command and delivered the message of God. What this really means though is almost all the members of the houses God permitted to be risen, those exalted families, are men. But women were sent by God in those divinely chosen families. In other words, "We did not send but males/men who we revealed to..." is general description of the family of the reminder forms, they are mostly men. For example, the Ahlulbayt of Moses and Aaron had two women part of it even though Elizabeth was super pious and all mothers of chosen ones are pious, it's the two named Mariam, Moses' and Aaron's sister and as well the mother of Jesus, who were of that family.

What they weren't however were complete leaders to humanity only in the sense they weren't meant to lead militarily and govern.

However, their political commands and leadership was to be obeyed. Fatima (a) for example, revived the message during Imam Ali (a) time and made clear what would almost be forgotten by the people and neglected. See her famous long speech about Fadak and reflect over it with Quran. Should be an eye opener.

They too have authority except are not meant to be looked to for governance. This purely due to mililitary and harsh nature of political leadership is best suited in a male, and nothing with men being better then women or anything in that regard.

Rather, Quran shows men have with regards to women, stage to reach to, without treating them well, will not reach, and are to be moral supports rising women up but the Quran never made the claim vice versa and all it tasked women with his safeguarding the secrets that God safeguarded (ie. not to spread gossip about your husband).

Quran said "nor is it permissble to be harsh to them" yet people justify the worse evils by the worse translation.

In a Sunni hadith, the Wasiya (dying will) of the Prophet was regards to three things:

(1) Quran (which we mistranslate and corrupted the light of it)
(2) The Ahlulbayt (which we abandoned to this day)
(3) Women (which we oppressed and mistranslated their rights to, and attributed some bad stuff to God's religion pertaining to them).

 

[firedragon]

Sacred hadiths exist, but they are really Prophet and Imams paraphrasing Quran. Most people don't understand this. For example, in a du'a, it is said God said to his servants "I am your service and help". This can be a summary of the spirit of Quran or a lot of it.

The words to that effect don't exist. Hadith qudsi in my view, is the Nabi (s) paraphrasing reflections over Quran, saying God says this and that. Or one of the Ahlulbayt (a) paraphrasing God.

I've done it in essays as well. Paraphrase what I understand God is saying in Quran or a verse or chapter.

In this sense, they aren't actually more "sacred" than other hadiths of the Prophet (s).

Thats your theory brother.

But the theory of hadith Qudsi according to Islamic scholars like Malik Ibn Anas, Ibn Hajar al Askalaani etc is that hadith Qudsi is wahiyillah linnabiiyi.

This is not what i believe because the initial question was not about what i believe.

 

[Link]

Thats your theory brother.

But the theory of hadith Qudsi according to Islamic scholars like Malik Ibn Anas, Ibn Hajar al Askalaani etc is that hadith Qudsi is wahiyillah linnabiiyi.

This is not what i believe because the initial question was not about what i believe.

I know that. Which is why I said most don't understand.

The Quran says pertaining to Mohammad's (s) speech "it's not but a revelation he reveals", but this is exaggerated prose. It means everything he says is a revelation of the revelation of God. But not everything he really says, God told him to say those exact words.

The Quran also says the Mohammad (s) is a reminder revealed. And said he is the clear proof. This means Quran and his life, are intertwined.

This is to no surprise, as Resalah has been emphasized more so then Nubuwa. Without Resalah (the message) you get very little benefit from Nubuwa (the Quran).

 

[Link]

For example the 10 prayers Imam Jewad (a) said from Mohammad (s) from Gabriel (a) from God (swt), weren't actually exact words from God down that chain. He meant that the doors of knowledge and skill has opened thousands of doors opening thousands of doors opening thousands doors, and this the nature of the Quran when it's at it's best, and this is God's words about Elyas (a) the true successor of Sulaiman (a), "a person who had knowledge from the book".

The miracle Elyas (a) did by warping an entire throne is on par with signs of God that Moses' (a) was sent with, in fact, even more powerful and clear in this regard.

Some people say this a pious jinn or super believer, etc, none sense. This is a test from God to see if we been paying attention to all that he said about miracles vs sorcery, and miracles being signs and proofs that God directly empowers and blesses the individual and trusts that individual directly.

The Quran has explanation of all things, but, we don't know all things by reciting it.

Yet, istikhara (to choose the best), one way is to ask God to show you a clear sign in Quran regarding your choice. This shows no decision a human is tasked to make, but Quran, has a clear sign.

How this is possible? It's God absolute wisdom and power. Quran is not like any other book. It never get's old to the reciters and when one light of it is exchanged for a much higher level, you didn't expect it at all.

Quran surprises it's readers with majestic wonders, and has guidance pertaining to all decisions humans need to. It's guidance being perpetual and forever, and it's taking on new forms with higher knowledge, is unique.

 

[Link]

The 10 prayers of Imam Jewad (a) for example are Imam Mohammad Jewad's (a) own words.

 

[Link]

The word for God is Exalted in Hebrew, and sometimes it means God(s) and sometimes it actually means exalted or those taken as exalted.

He means by lesser gods, the exalted ones, perhaps?

The first line of Gospels of John, should be:

"In beginning was the word, and the word was the exalted ones, and the exalted ones were the word". This is pertaining to the tree of life and knowledge, which Adam (a) was forbidden to look at it with competition or envy, and he envied not wishing them bad but to reach them.

Iblis which is revealed as the hidden serpent nature of evil in the Torah still today, tricked Adam (a) to seek it because the God he believed in is only forbidding (accusing the exalted ones) so he (a) and his wife (a) don't reach such a high station.

When Iblis (God curse him) swore by God he was sincere in advising, Adam (a) truthful nature, couldn't tell anymore, which God was true, but this was also hiddenly because he did look already with envy, and so went forth to eat from the tree fully and outwardly in expression as well.

But God knew if Adam (a) would fall, and he didn't know if he would as knowledge of the future is impossible to be known of free-will, and this doesn't make God less perfect or less knowing, but more perfect and more worthy of being worshipped and free in his decisions in real time, he knew and trusted Adam (a) would repent and turn back.

And so the diminishment of God's (the mighty and majestic) choice by Iblis was no way proven by this. But Iblis really has deceived himself to believing he is right and disbelieves in God's choice and as a consequence in God.

He saw the exalted ones sustained by God in the hidden world, but believed, their power is not from the Creator as he is Atheist in this regard.

He went so far astray that he really started believing he is the one meant to be worshipped by all beings, the highest among them.

His hidden intention that he won't even acknowledge or accept, is to bring all creatures to hell fire, but he convinces himself he loves and wants to free humans and jinn from the exalted ones and in his view, their false God.

And yet, he fears their god because he believes Ahlulbayt and all chosen ones in forms of Ahlulbayts, were all misguided and self-deceived.

This how confusing it can get without mental clarity.

And when believers bless the Prophet (s) and his family (a), he sees the blessings, but doesn't acknowledge the source.

The accusation of Messengers (a) being sorcerers hence is a belief stemming from him.

He fears their greater power and in fact, sees the order of the universe, but disbelieves. He fears their Lord, yet disbelieves.

The idiot when respited by Gabriel and Michael and their army, really believed he tricked them, and that Gabriel and Michael are as well misguided by the "exalted ones" who he actually deceived himself that they are selfish and power hungry.

When he deceives a human to not believe in the order of the universe, and the position of Angels, and Messengers, he knows he tricked them too far, and says, you are an idiot and I am free from you.

He thinks he can test humans and believes his order and the devils and sorcerers under him, from humans and Jinn, don't cease to plan against God's proofs and guides.

Iblis was a disbeliever and remains to this day.

The Serpent nature of him is so hidden and subtle, that even he doesn't perceive his own evil.