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Featured Coming to Islam is coming to a polytheistic religion.

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Link, Mar 15, 2020.

  1. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

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    I posted the following in another thread:

    By the way from my point of view anyone who denies anything in Quran from it's clear teachings to verify a system come up by humans is a polytheist. This is the state of Muslims. They are polytheists worshipping their scholars. The truth is Ilmel Rijaal can be useful but when taking too seriously as it is, the intention is not truth seeking but Sunnah of forefathers confirmation bias kicking in and the intention is Shirk not for God. I testify that Ilmel Rijal worshippers are the worse type of disbelievers among humans. This only because the Quran is testified by them but they misinterpret it to worship Satanic identity of themselves and their scholars.

    Comment (past this is new):

    I want to prove that Islam in it's current state and people coming to it and holding on to it, are coming to a polytheistic religion in a polytheistic state.

    This might sound exaggerated, but per Quran, I believe this is true. The real intention when God is disobeyed and Iblis' authorities obeyed is when God is deemed less or equally as important as idols among humans and Jinn.

    This is the truth.

    I will be proving Islam is a false religion and Muslim a meaningless title in this thread. Of course, there are exceptions and truth seekers in all religion labels, but the label is meaningless now, and the religion false in the state it is.

    I will be proving this beyond doubt. This will be through seeing what the true religion of submitting to God means and what Islam is meant today. This will be proven through both Quran and Sunnah.

    We are probably the most insolent and insincere to God nations, but have deceived ourselves otherwise. Time to wake up and smell the coffee.
     
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  2. icehorse

    icehorse Well-Known Member
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    That's an interesting perspective, and it probably has some merit.
     
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  3. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Suddenly I feel you and I have things in common; yet I know very little about Islam or the Quran. This surprises me, but it shouldn't. People are the same. Christians have lots of pastors/ministers/apostles/evangelists etc. We have people who attend weekly to listen to super spiritual individuals. We elevate some above others. I think this is similar to what you describe.

    I do not think you can change this. I think it is an ongoing problem with people. You can only free yourself in my opinion. I am sorry for your pain.

    Many times I think of how this situation can be addressed. I could argue against it clearly using Christian canon, yet people would not listen. They don't listen. I never listened when it was my turn, and now nobody listens to me.
     
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  4. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

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    I am using this definition.

    A religion true when at least one sect claiming to represent it's foundation leader(s) is right in their claim and this includes the leader(s) was/were right in their claim.

    A religion is false when no sect claiming to represent it's foundation leader(s) is right in their claim and this is despite whether or not the leader was/were right in their claim.

    The problem with saying Islam is the religion of Mohammad is that you will have the no true Scotsman fallacy. So we can't equate them if they are not identical.

    Either among Islam is a group that represents the truth or there is none. I believe including myself, none of us represent the true interpretation of Quran or Islam nor know the Sunnah nor are even scratching the surface of Quran let alone it's deep wisdom.

    Those who do cannot even claim it per the Quranic instruction to not attribute purity to oneself but God attributes purity to who he pleases. As none of the leaders who God attributes purity is now in the open, no group can claim this, and no group can say we are purely representing the religion of Mohammad (s).

    Far worse is that we knowingly disobey God's commands clearly in Quran, divorce verses out of context, and heedlessly recite Quran without reflection. All this to mix truth with falsehood and all that to justify our Worship of the Taghut but claiming to ourselves and deceiving ourselves to Worship God sincerely and alone without anyone deemed as equally beloved or important.

    Mohammad (s) being true in his claim by no means Islam and Muslims are right. They are only right if they truly followed him and preserved his teachings and not mix it with falsehood.

    They didn't.
     
    #4 Link, Mar 15, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2020
  5. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

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    The Quran says to people of the book, let us come to a word common between us, that we Worship God sincerely and not take some people as lords. Mohammad (s) according to both Sunni and Shiite hadiths, said, they didn't worship these humans in the meaning as in call them gods, but they obeyed them in matters of good and evil while attributing God what is forbidden and forbidding what God allowed.

    This is not exact words but I'm paraphrasing the hadith and verse. This is one reason why we are allowed marrying people of the book (Christians, Jews, Sabeans, and other followers of revelations in the world).
     
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  6. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

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    Exalt God's Names

    Exalt God's Names but do not Worship them.
    Worship God through his Names representing Him
    And do not exalt humans claiming to represent his names falsely
    Rather exalts his names lovingly and kindly
    Neither lagging behind in their rights
    Nor going into exaggeration to equate them with their Lord of their rights
    They are those who God's favor is in regards to (1:7)
    They are those who are the straight path
    Love them with affection to take a path
    And hold to them and their authority
    And don't take their affair and authority among yourselves
    Your affair is council among each other
    And truth seeking and obeying their commands
    And asking the family of the reminder when you know not
    And asking the guides for miracles whence you know not
    Samuel means God's Name in Hebrew
    But most people do not understand
    Obey the Messengers to obey God
    Recognize the houses God permitted to be risen
    And his name therein
    Whether the family of Abraham
    Or of Moses and Aaron
    Always a family of the reminder
    One after another
    One after another
    Stars in the sky of this world
    Witnesses to human and Jinn
    Witnesses, drivers, captains, leaders
    Who are the living words of God
    Whence the revelation truly resides
    Disobey them and perish
    Recognize God's favor through them and be grateful
    In that lies the success and happiness of both realms
    This disgusting world to perish
    And the amazing world to come



    By Mahdi Mohammad
     
    #6 Link, Mar 15, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2020
  7. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    There's a warning in the Quran about the Hadith:

    And of the people is he who buys the amusement of speech[hadith] to mislead [others] from the way of Allah without knowledge and who takes it in ridicule. Those will have a humiliating punishment.
    Surah 31:6
     
  8. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    The wording is too strong. It would be more accurate to consider Islam a corrupted rather than a false religion and that many Muslims in some respect are misguided.
     
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  9. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Immersion in the Ocean of God's Word
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    I see this is not possible, as Islam was founded on the Word of Allah.

    To say Islam is false, then all Faiths are accused in the same way.

    It would also be applicable to your own comments, as you can not speak for Allah, only Allah sends the Messengers.

    Regards Tony
     
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  10. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    I find polytheism in the scriptures of Judaism and Christianity. Less so in the Quran.
     
  11. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    I would like to know what polytheism you find in the Qur'an.
     
  12. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    In the Qur'an, the word ahadith is a very simple word for a story or a narrative. There are many instances like this.

    So it depends on the context of the verse or what you are simply saying. So in the verse, you are quoting it says lahwal hadith but in another very it will say hadith but its just a story about Ibrahim that came to you. So citing the word does not mean it is speaking about ahadith that will come in the future, it is just a generic word.
     
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  13. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

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    Hadiths and Quran go hand to hand. I'm not against hadiths. I'm against blindly following and attributing God false things heedlessly as well some knowingly.
     
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  14. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe that seems a bit extreme to me. It is true that Muslims tend to misinterpret the Qu'ran and follow the leadership of imams but I have never encountered a Muslim who says he worships any but Allah.
     
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  15. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe Hadiths can be misleading but "amusment" doesn't seem to fit. Is it a mistranslation?
     
  16. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    i believe a person who has become adept at perceiving the word of God (like me) can see that the Hadiths are not the word of God.
     
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  17. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

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    Claims are claims. The Quran shows the true idol (The Taghut) is not actual gods they claimed to worship any people didn't really worship those though they claimed it - that is a claim that is unjust outwardly, but really, the intention was taking them as a love between themselves, and the true idol were the authority they were mislead by that is the misguiding leaders.

    The verses regarding this are many. I will be quoting them a long with hadiths as support. At the heart of Iblis - Satan that is - was Worshipped.
     
  18. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

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    Hadiths of the right type compliment and give insights to Quran. If Quran doesn't verify it, it's not a true hadith, because Mohammad's (s) words were calculated to compliment the Quran.
     
  19. Theo102

    Theo102 Active Member

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    That's all true, but in the context of the history of the the Hadith the verse is meaningful because much of the Hadith was rejected as false. There is reason to think that the validation of the Hadith is flawed because of it's internal inconsistency and because of the paedophile prophet story, which is refuted by the timeline of events of the life of Muhammad and Aisha.
     
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  20. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Immersion in the Ocean of God's Word
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    I would offer that the Word of God has quoted Hadiths in this age, as such God has confirmed that some Hadith does have foundation in Truth.

    The problem is, with no clear authority, it would mean that it has to find foundation in the Quran and the issue then is the interpretation of the Quran verses themselves. Who in this age has authority to say what the Quran means?

    Regards Tony
     
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