Coming out as creationists: fear.

[Subduction Zone]

The public schools in Tokyo, Seoul, Hong Kong, Singapore
produce much higher achieving students than any "religious"
school in the USA.

JW kids are cautioned to avoid higher education.
Specifically and overtly to keep them in the cult.

Sadly better than most of our non-religious schools as well.

 

[Cacotopia]

One of my old room mates was a Jehovah Witness. Those were interesting times. He was in community college but eventually dropped out because his involvement with the church become overwhelming. I am fairly confident he never spoke about me cause they prolly would have gone bananers about him renting an apartment with an atheist.

But somewhere in the comments there was a post talking about Intelligent design, I find this argument terribly flawed though. Or the watchmaker argument, the world and life is so complex it requires a creator to have made it. Well if the creator has to be so complex it too needs a creator and then you have an infinite regression where that creator's creator needs a creator and that goes back forever, but somehow this logical deduction doesn't matter because I think in their heads the rules don't apply with their god.

 

[exchemist]

The public schools in Tokyo, Seoul, Hong Kong, Singapore
produce much higher achieving students than any "religious"
school in the USA.

JW kids are cautioned to avoid higher education.

Interesting. I had never heard this about them before, but indeed there does seems to be supporting evidence, for instance here: Watchtower Quotes Regarding Advanced Education
(Hard to know what is objective on the web but this site does at least back up its contention with quotes.)

I find this unforgivable.

 

[ecco]

They are in that environment for the majority of their waking hours 5 days a week.

Did you attend public school?

To most first century Jews Jesus was the leader of a cult. Did he care what most Jews believed?
Neither do we.

The only difference between a cult and a religion is the number of believers it has.

Spirituality is like a muscle...the more it is used the stronger it gets....conversely the less it is used the weaker it gets until it becomes useless.

Critical thinking is like a muscle...the more it is used the stronger it gets....conversely the less it is used the weaker it gets until it becomes useless.

Your Critical Thinking muscle has deteriorated due to your constant JW indoctrination.

The scripture in Hebrews 6:19 that explains why....
"We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, both sure and firm..."

Judges 21: 10- 24 :

So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.​

Yep, the bible is a good source for learning.

People need the "hope" of something better to come.

That you pin your "hope of something better to come", shows how deep you JW indoctrination really is.

Do you know how teens and pre-teens occupy their time these days? Most of them are glued to screens offering the most gratuitous violence and graphic bloodshed to entertain their young minds.....a Bible based meeting where moral values are taught, is a good way to offset that influence IMO. I have no knowledge of religious camps....but hey, I will wager that the activities there would be a lot more mentally healthy than the kids who stay at home playing violent video games. Do you have teens in your life?

Children that play games know they are playing games. Children that are indoctrinated into believing religious views come to believe those religious views are truth. You did.

Take a poll:

A. Allow your kids to play video games
B. Allow your kids to attend JW meetings​

How many parents would choose B.?

Must make for some interesting discussions at your house....especially if you display the same hostility towards your believing child as you do to believers here.

I've already discussed that. In any case, my children are not JW fundies.

I am correctly assuming that Bible morals are superior to atheist morals,

Your assumptions are clearly, undeniably wrong.

Judges 21: 10- 24 :

So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.​

Try actually reading your bible sometime.

 

[ecco]

I herewith submit proof that god makes volcanoes erupt.

 

[ecco]

I herewith submit proof that god causes earthquakes.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Have you ever asked JW's about that or just heard one sided sob stories off the net? That appears to be where our "history" is recorded. Can you make a valid judgment about anything with only one side of a story? The sob stories are a dime a dozen, but no one is interested in hearing the other side. People will believe whatever they want to believe.

You haven't answered my question.

The Bible is the source of all our beliefs and activities. When we 'disfellowship' someone it is because they have done something to break a law of God with the intention of getting away with it.....for the most part it is because of immorality, but no one is disfellowshipped who is genuinely repentant. "Genuine" doesn't mean 'crocodile tears'...it means working hard to never let that happen again. We encourage and applaud repentant wrongdoers as we are all imperfect ourselves. Disfellowshipping is based on 1 Corinthians 5:9-13.

That removal from fellowship is not a physical removal from our meetings, as anyone is free to come and go.....but it is a clear message from the congregation that the person is out of favor with God and needs to do something about it. We offer no fellowship with that person.

So do the JW church have a history of excommunicating people - and encouraging their followers not to interact with said people - if, for instance, they left the faith?

Anything a parent wants to teach their child can be considered indoctrination.....even atheism.

No, indoctrination isn't "teaching your child", indoctrination is a specific form of education which allows no room for questioning and enforces itself through repetition, fear tactics and emotion.

What makes religion any worse? Last time I looked, Bible principles were better than no principles at all.

"It's better than nothing" isn't really a valid argument.

Your parents must have been a trifle sadistic to do that to you

....

Excuse me?

"a series of religious schools" eh? .....was it open-mindedness or was it the superior education they were after?

The latter. The point being that they didn't care if I was exposed to opposing views.

Most religious schools have better teachers and higher academic achievment than public schools. Better standard of student behavior too I'd imagine...?

Which is completely irrelevant and means nothing.

No more so than any other parents' impact on their children. What methods do you think we use?

Indoctrination.

We try to keep our teaching light and enjoyable. Our kids sometimes like to dress up as Bible characters and act out a Bible story...some of them are hilarious.

Which is also completely irrelevant and means nothing.

It was a response in kind I thought.

Then you're delusional.

That depends on what you mean by "open mindedness"...we will not go to extremes either way. Our meetings involve covering topics that are pertinent to everyday life as well as Bible highlights so we cover a wide range of subjects. The emphasis is on balance and there is NO ritual in our weekly meetings.

Do you not see the hilarious contradiction in that statement?

"There is NO ritual in our weekly meetings?"

Our children participate in the meeting, adding comments about the topic as their understanding allows.You seem to have a very dark view of what we do. I was raised Anglican but hated it.....I have been a Witness for 45 years and I love being part of this global family. Are we perfect....?....nope...but I think we try harder than most.

So what do you do to encourage questioning of the Bible and thinking outside of JW teachings? Do you cover any other religious texts?

We are very trusting of one another so we warn our children about how the world operates so that they can be aware of unscrupulous people and their motives.

And which people, according to you and your church, are unscrupulous? Do atheists often come up in that category?

We teach them about the moderate consumption of alcohol and good choices for entertainment, as well as the responsibility to respect older ones. We aim to raise balanced kids with respect for themselves and with a healthy respect for God's standards. We teach them to try and avoid regrets, but that mistakes are not the end of the world. None of us are perfect.

But what DON'T you teach them? To question your beliefs? Critical thinking? Science?

The same as what I tell them when the door is open.My kids were always free to ask whatever they wanted to with no taboo subjects. If they attend school, how could there be?

And do you encourage them to think for themselves?

Of course I would want to influence their decisions. I am their mother and no one has more of a right to do that than parents. But no matter how much I wanted to influence them, they had to make their own choices and reap what they sowed. Lessons don't have to be hard or painful, but some kids can't learn any other way.

Anything else you'd like to know?

Yes, how can you honestly say you don't indoctrinate your children? How do you know what you're doing isn't leaving no room for questioning and skepticism from them?

 

[Deeje]

Birds are beautiful...Deeje and are fruit of God's love...

...But thinking of the toucan's beak, it's a relief to know it was not designed by our Lord...

I mean...that shape is disturbing

I think its rather beautiful. The variety is truly astounding. How boring if all birds had the same beaks.

This is a work of art.....it looks hand painted!

What about these...?

Did these birds just design their own beaks? I can't believe it....

 

[exchemist]

I think its rather beautiful. The variety is truly astounding. How boring if all birds had the same beaks.

This is a work of art.....it looks hand painted!



What about these...?



Did these birds just design their own beaks? I can't believe it....

This - leaving aside the wilful misrepresentation of what evolution actually says about how forms change - is a perfect, unvarnished example of the Argument from Personal Incredulity: I, personally, knowing little about the subject, can't believe it; ergo it cannot be true.

 

[Audie]

8

Interesting. I had never heard this about them before, but indeed there does seems to be supporting evidence, for instance here: Watchtower Quotes Regarding Advanced Education
(Hard to know what is objective on the web but this site does at least back up its contention with quotes.)

I find this unforgivable.

It is unforgivable. It is child abuse.

I only brought this up because of the post with its
hallucinatory assertions about how great a religious
education is.

The JW come in third to last in the USA, in educational achievement.
The most and least educated U.S. religious groups

In the rest of the world, there are millions of people who are desperately
eager to get an education to better themselves. and are denied the chance.
Poverty, violence against women who attempt it, many obstacles.
Some few manage to heroically overcome all and succeed.

And what do the JWs do? Indoctrinate their unfortunate children into
an anti intellectual cult.

Think how many would give anything to have what those people throw away,
while presenting that they are too good for it.

 

[Estro Felino]

I think its rather beautiful. The variety is truly astounding. How boring if all birds had the same beaks.

.

yes...the beauty of their colors is really breathtaking....

But, we must not forget that colors are the direct result of different climates, which produce genetic mutations...and the random crossing-over does the rest.

that's why in cold, grey Sweden we will find ducks like these

 

[Audie]

This - leaving aside the wilful misrepresentation of what evolution actually says about how forms change - is a perfect, unvarnished example of the Argument from Personal Incredulity: I, personally, knowing little about the subject, can't believe it; ergo it cannot be true.

If everything a person thinks they know is wrong, is that not less than nothing?

It would be cool and fun to discuss legitimate arguments against ToE
but that creocrap is no more legit than if I said I dont believe in god
because he promised in the bible to make life 100% joyful and painless
and then broke his word. The bible does not say that. And ToE
is not what DJ thinks, at all.

Of course, as noted above, the proper JW does eschew education.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Have you ever asked JW's about that or just heard one sided sob stories off the net? That appears to be where our "history" is recorded. Can you make a valid judgment about anything with only one side of a story? The sob stories are a dime a dozen, but no one is interested in hearing the other side. People will believe whatever they want to believe.

The Bible is the source of all our beliefs and activities. When we 'disfellowship' someone it is because they have done something to break a law of God with the intention of getting away with it.....for the most part it is because of immorality, but no one is disfellowshipped who is genuinely repentant. "Genuine" doesn't mean 'crocodile tears'...it means working hard to never let that happen again. We encourage and applaud repentant wrongdoers as we are all imperfect ourselves. Disfellowshipping is based on 1 Corinthians 5:9-13.

That removal from fellowship is not a physical removal from our meetings, as anyone is free to come and go.....but it is a clear message from the congregation that the person is out of favor with God and needs to do something about it. We offer no fellowship with that person.



Anything a parent wants to teach their child can be considered indoctrination.....even atheism.
What makes religion any worse? Last time I looked, Bible principles were better than no principles at all.

Your parents must have been a trifle sadistic to do that to you

.... "a series of religious schools" eh? .....was it open-mindedness or was it the superior education they were after? Most religious schools have better teachers and higher academic achievment than public schools. Better standard of student behavior too I'd imagine...?



No more so than any other parents' impact on their children. What methods do you think we use?

We try to keep our teaching light and enjoyable. Our kids sometimes like to dress up as Bible characters and act out a Bible story...some of them are hilarious.



It was a response in kind I thought.

That depends on what you mean by "open mindedness"...we will not go to extremes either way. Our meetings involve covering topics that are pertinent to everyday life as well as Bible highlights so we cover a wide range of subjects. The emphasis is on balance and there is NO ritual in our weekly meetings. Our children participate in the meeting, adding comments about the topic as their understanding allows.You seem to have a very dark view of what we do. I was raised Anglican but hated it.....I have been a Witness for 45 years and I love being part of this global family. Are we perfect....?....nope...but I think we try harder than most.



We are very trusting of one another so we warn our children about how the world operates so that they can be aware of unscrupulous people and their motives. We teach them about the moderate consumption of alcohol and good choices for entertainment, as well as the responsibility to respect older ones. We aim to raise balanced kids with respect for themselves and with a healthy respect for God's standards. We teach them to try and avoid regrets, but that mistakes are not the end of the world. None of us are perfect.



The same as what I tell them when the door is open.My kids were always free to ask whatever they wanted to with no taboo subjects. If they attend school, how could there be?



Of course I would want to influence their decisions. I am their mother and no one has more of a right to do that than parents. But no matter how much I wanted to influence them, they had to make their own choices and reap what they sowed. Lessons don't have to be hard or painful, but some kids can't learn any other way.

Anything else you'd like to know?

How does the congregation know when a person is "out of favor with God?" Isn't that between an individual and God?
Sounds like the congregation thinks they're God.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Its hard to keep up.

But also hard to talk about creation and not evolution when you are in this forum....

You want my evidence for creation....? Here you go....

The photos speak volumes gnostic.....they don't need words. I can provide braille if you have a visual problem.....

My 'pictures of God' might be hiding in the same place as the substantiated evidence you have for macro-evolution.

My 'pictures of God' are like pictures of the wind....you only see what results from its presence.

No, they don't speak volumes. These pictures are evidence only that the things in the pictures exist. Not much more.

Please explain how your photos constitute evidence for creationism. Please refrain from using the argument from personal incredulity in doing so, as it is a logical fallacy.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No, they don't speak volumes. These pictures are evidence only that the things in the pictures exist. Not much more.

Please explain how your photos constitute evidence for creationism. Please refrain from using the argument from personal incredulity in doing so, as it is a logical fallacy.

We all know that she can't. This is the best that she has, an endless argument from personal incredulity.

 

[viole]

Their use of derision and insults against those who oppose their view are proof that they have no real evidence for what they assume. If the evidence was real, it wouldn't still be a theory.

For me, its Evolutionary Science 0....and ID 10/10 !

Well, you forget SD. Evolution vs. ID is a false dichotomy since I believe that under the premise of design, the case for SD is pretty strong.

Anyway, being ridiculed does not mean to have a case. I used to know a person who believed that little invisible fairies were messing around with her carrots when she was not looking.

So, what would a sane person do? Say "I respect your beliefs and preoccupations for your carrots, because it makes so much sense for invisible fairies to infest gardens and destroy carrots"?

No. You would laugh at her, obviously. Or you would risk some facial injury by trying not to do that because someone told you that everyone deserves respect.

Same thing with creationism and things like Adam and Eve and talking snakes.

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

[

Well...at least in my country I have the impression that there are people out there (lay, ecclesiastical...it doesn't matter...) who believe in Creationism, but are too afraid of admitting it publicly, out of fear of being ridiculed.

It is a completely justified fear. Even though, it sounds a bit self defeating if you think about that. If that is what they believe God did, it is like finding embarrassing His modus operandi.

Statistically speaking, I think almost nobody in the society I live in would say they're proud to believe in creation...the only people who did were a couple of JW's.

Well, they do not fear nothing. Not even taking tea with me or missing all second-coming deadlines.

Or maybe in the US the Creationist pride is more vivid...while in Europe it's repressed?

Evolution: true or false?

I am completely disappointed that we are number three.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Estro Felino]

[
It is a completely justified fear. Even though, it sounds a bit self defeating if you think about that. If that is what they believe God did, it is like finding embarrassing His modus operandi.
Well, they do not fear nothing. Not even taking tea with me or missing all second-coming deadlines.

Lol...u're an European as I am...so you can understand me.
I've grown up knowing that Evolution is the only rational, scientific truth. I've never heard of something like ID..

Americans might think we "choose" to "believe" in Evolution...lol..

I am completely disappointed that we are number three.

yeah....shame on u guys...Iceland...an island...surpassed u

 

[viole]

Lol...u're an European as I am...so you can understand me.
I've grown up knowing that Evolution is the only rational, scientific truth. I've never heard of something like ID..

Americans might think we "choose" to "believe" in Evolution...lol..

Well, it is only a theory after all and we should teach the controversy. They have a point, actually.
However, it is still not clear to me why they do not want to teach the controversy concerning human birth, as well. I think the embryonic development theory is still, well, a theory, and the alternative concerning storks carrying babies around should also be considered.

yeah....shame on u guys...Iceland...an island...surpassed u

I tell you. I am really disappointed. Iceland? You must be joking

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

I herewith submit proof that god causes earthquakes.

Well, insurances call it act of God, don't they?

Ciao

- viole