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Colossians 3:5

Big_TJ

Active Member
From the NWT:

5Deaden, therefore, ​YOUR​ body members that are upon the earth as respects fornication, uncleanness, sexual appetite, hurtful desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

What does "sexual appetite" means in this context? If I should read this against the standard writings of Paul (who seemingly prefers celibacy), I would think that Paul actually means literal "sexual appetite" or anything sexual. But, what are your views on the meaning of it? Feel free to explain the context in which you supply the meaning if needed.

Thanks!
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
From the NWT:

5Deaden, therefore, ​YOUR​ body members that are upon the earth as respects fornication, uncleanness, sexual appetite, hurtful desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

What does "sexual appetite" means in this context? If I should read this against the standard writings of Paul (who seemingly prefers celibacy), I would think that Paul actually means literal "sexual appetite" or anything sexual. But, what are your views on the meaning of it? Feel free to explain the context in which you supply the meaning if needed.

Thanks!

Hi BigTJ,

The word Paul used in greek is pa′thos meaning “passion”
So he is discouraging 'sexual passion' that leads a person to fornication and hurtful desire.


He also did clarify what he meant in his letter to the Corinthians. He wasnt against sexual intimacy, he was against sexual intimacy outside the bounds of marriage:
1Cor 7:1 Now concerning the things about which YOU wrote, it is well for a man not to touch a woman; 2*yet, because of prevalence of fornication, let each man have his own wife and each woman have her own husband. 3*Let the husband render to [his] wife her due; but let the wife also do likewise to [her] husband


He actually advises anyone who desires to have sexual relations to do so in the state of marriage. He tells young widows to remarry and young men to marry, and he tells married people not to deprive each other of sexual intercourse.

1Cor 7:8*Now I say to the unmarried persons and the widows, it is well for them that they remain even as I am. 9*But if they do not have self-control, let them marry, for it is better to marry than to be inflamed [with passion


Pauls advice upholds the high moral standards of God law regarding fornication. If a person wants to engage in sexual activity, it should be done within the bounds of marriage only. Anything outside of this is unrighteous and immoral.
 

Big_TJ

Active Member
Hi BigTJ,

The word Paul used in greek is pa′thos meaning “passion”
So he is discouraging 'sexual passion' that leads a person to fornication and hurtful desire.

Pegg

Thanks for your reply. Just for clarification; you are correct that the word used by Paul is Pa'thos, which means "passion". So, how do you get "sexual passion" or "sexual passion that leads a person to fornication and hurtful desire" or even "sexual appetite" from "Pa'thos"? In the Lexicon, the word that appears before Pa'thos is "akatharsian" which means "impurity." So, if Paul's letter simply stated "passion" why would this be interpreted as "sexual passion" as you stated, or "sexual appetite" as translated in the NWT?

Thanks, Pegg
 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Pegg

Thanks for your reply. Just for clarification; you are correct that the word used by Paul is Pa'thos, which means "passion". So, how do you get "sexual passion" or "sexual passion that leads a person to fornication and hurtful desire" or even "sexual appetite" from "Pa'thos"? In the Lexicon, the word that appears before Pa'thos is "akatharsian" which means "impurity." So, if Paul's letter simply stated "passion" why would this be interpreted as "sexual passion" as you stated, or "sexual appetite" as translated in the NWT?

Thanks, Pegg

the phrasing is 'sexual appetite' because the context of Pauls discussion centres around 'fornication' which is sexual misconduct.

There is a difference between a normal desire (which is healthy) and a greedy improper desire leading one to fornication & covetousness. The NWT distinguishes the difference here by showing that, to greedily satisfy personal desires is both fornication and a form of covetousness....its not a normal acceptable 'desire' because normal desires would not lead one to commit such acts.

So the NWT uses the word 'appetite' rather then 'desire' because Paul is not outlawing proper sexual desire. God has never forbidden mankind from having sex. So Paul cannot be speaking about sexual relations here. If he was, then he is saying that sexual relations or sexual desire is forbidden by God.


And just to stress this point...the phrase Paul uses is 'DEADEN your body members'. Now the Expositor’s Bible Commentary makes this point on the verb 'deaden': “It suggests that we are not simply to suppress or control evil acts and attitudes. We are to wipe them out, completely exterminate the old way of life. ‘Slay utterly’ may express its force. .*.*. Both the meaning of the verb and the force of the tense suggest a vigorous, painful act of personal determination.”

Its impossible for us to wipe out out natural sexual desire because its been implanted in us and we were created with a sexual desire. Its not wrong. But what is wrong is when we take that desire and turn it into something more 'devouring'.... its no longer a natural normal desire... its out of control. Paul likens it to covetousness and we know that covetousness is an improper desire for something which is forbidden (ie, your fellowmans wife).


So just to be clear, the point is that 'sexual appetite' and 'sexual desire' are two different things. We know that sexual desire is natural and good...for that reason the NWT uses the word 'appetite' instead of 'desire' to signify that Paul is not speaking of normal natural desires but something negative.
 
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Big_TJ

Active Member
the phrasing is 'sexual appetite' because the context of Pauls discussion centres around 'fornication' which is sexual misconduct.

Thanks Pegg.

I had to look on the verse again after reading your response as the section I quote above got me. Here is the verse again:

5Deaden, therefore, ​YOUR​ body members that are upon the earth as respects fornication, uncleanness, sexual appetite, hurtful desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

I read it about 3 times and still cannot see how this verse centers around fornication (or sex, for that matter). It listed fornication, uncleanness, sexual appetite, etc. Why would you say that the context of this discussion is around fornication when fornication is just one of the items listed?

So the NWT uses the word 'appetite' rather then 'desire' because Paul is not outlawing proper sexual desire. God has never forbidden mankind from having sex. So Paul cannot be speaking about sexual relations here. If he was, then he is saying that sexual relations or sexual desire is forbidden by God.

So, just to confirm, you are agreeing that the translators of the NWT did not translate what was in the "original" writings, but translate it in a way to reflect what they think it should be; correct?

Just one more question: why do you think that "Paul was not outlawing proper sexual desire?" Paul's writings clearly suggests that sex is akin to a "second best option" kinda thing so I am not sure that here we can arbitrarily tell what Paul was or was not outlawing - can we?

I agree that Paul was not outlawing "sexual desire" or "sexual appetite" since this is not what the bible says. The bible simply said "desire" so that's what Paul was outlawing.

Thanks Pegg!
 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Thanks Pegg.

I had to look on the verse again after reading your response as the section I quote above got me. Here is the verse again:

5Deaden, therefore, ​YOUR​ body members that are upon the earth as respects fornication, uncleanness, sexual appetite, hurtful desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

I read it about 3 times and still cannot see how this verse centers around fornication (or sex, for that matter). It listed fornication, uncleanness, sexual appetite, etc. Why would you say that the context of this discussion is around fornication when fornication is just one of the items listed?

Hi BigTJ,

When you read Pauls letter with the surrounding verses, its more clear...and your are right, its not just fornication he's refering to, but he lists it first as a thing to 'deaden'

Colossians 3:1 If, however, YOU were raised up with the Christ, go on seeking the things above, ...2*Keep YOUR minds fixed on the things above, not on the things upon the earth. ...
5*Deaden, therefore, YOUR body members that are upon the earth as respects fornication, uncleanness, sexual appetite, hurtful desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6*On account of those things the wrath of God is coming.


Each of the things he mentions are 'works of the flesh'. Fornication being the foremost of them. Fornication is a very broad term for many immoral sexual practices.
Bauer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament defines it as “prostitution, unchastity, fornication, of every kind of unlawful sexual intercourse.”

So, among other things, he is talking about sexual immorality here.


So, just to confirm, you are agreeing that the translators of the NWT did not translate what was in the "original" writings, but translate it in a way to reflect what they think it should be; correct?

Yes precisely.

And this isnt the only verse where the NWT uses a word that is more understandable and in line with the context. The reason is due to the greek word used.....

The Greek verb e·pi·thy·me′o means “desire.” But its a positive desire. An example is its use at Matthew 13:17*For I truly say to YOU, Many prophets and righteous men desired to see the things YOU are beholding and did not see the

However, at Col 5:3, Paul uses a word translated as desire, but that has a slightly different meaning. He uses the greek word ple·o·ne·xi′a which literally means “a desire to have more” and is translated into english as 'desire' just as the other greek word is.

So the NWT has used 'appetite' in this verse to express the idea of 'wanting more' then is normal or healthy. Another expression we might use is that someone has an 'insatiable appetite' where they can't get enough of something. That is the 'idea' that this particular greek word expresses. Desire could be used in the verse (and they do put it in the footnote) however, they chose a word that more accurately reflects the meaning of the original greek word.


Just one more question: why do you think that "Paul was not outlawing proper sexual desire?" Paul's writings clearly suggests that sex is akin to a "second best option" kinda thing so I am not sure that here we can arbitrarily tell what Paul was or was not outlawing - can we?

the Watchtower approach to studying the scriptures has always been to compare multiple scriptures with one another and come to an interpretation which does not contradict any of them.

If we were to interpret Pauls words as meaning that sexual relations is some kind of improper sin, then we are contradicting a whole multitude of scriptures that uphold the sanctity of marriage and sexual relations.
When God created Adam and Eve, he gave them sexual desire, reproductive power and told them to go and multiply. That would require sexual activity.
Gods blessing on marriage is extolled by the blessing childbirth. Children were Gods blessing and the scriptures highlight that fact.

Even Paul advised some to marry and marriage mates not to deprive each other of sex. So we have to really take all the scriptures into account before we attempt to apply a meaning to one particular verse.

If an interpretation creates a conflict with just one scripture, the WT rejected the interpretation. Our view is that the scriptures are RIGHT in every respect. So our interpretation MUST harmonize with the scriptures.
 
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Big_TJ

Active Member
Pegg.

Ok, it get the parts where you are essentially saying "this is not really what the original scriptures says/teaches, but this is what the NWT translators think is needed to harmonize the scripture with other scriptures." I get that portion.

What I am still not getting is the reason why you said and repeated that the verse is about sexual desire/fornication. Why is the verse more about sexual immorality/fornication than about covetousness? Is it simply because Paul listed it first?
 

Big_TJ

Active Member
And here is my big question: how, from the verse below:

5Deaden, therefore, ​YOUR​ body members that are upon the earth as respects fornication, uncleanness, sexual appetite, hurtful desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

Does one gets "in short, God hates Pornography?"


Thanks!
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Pegg.

Ok, it get the parts where you are essentially saying "this is not really what the original scriptures says/teaches, but this is what the NWT translators think is needed to harmonize the scripture with other scriptures." I get that portion.

the point is that both greek words can be translated as 'desire', but they carry different meanings

one means a desire in a positive sense, the other is a desire in a negative sense.

So if a translator simply translates both words as 'desire', then the original meaning becomes lost. The NWT is not ignoring the original meaning, they are one of the few who attemp to make the orginal meaning known. Sometimes it means using a different English word to do that....but isnt that the job of a translator?


What I am still not getting is the reason why you said and repeated that the verse is about sexual desire/fornication. Why is the verse more about sexual immorality/fornication than about covetousness? Is it simply because Paul listed it first?

well the verse contains 5 different expressions, and 3 of them are specifically sexual in nature:

'deaden your body members as respects fornication, uncleanness, sexual appetite, hurtful desire, and covetousness

He's telling christians to deaden 'fornication, uncleanness, sexual appetite, hurtful desire and covetousness'

We could actually include covetousness with sexual immorality because coveting is the act of wanting something we do not possess and it can include illicit sexual desire for another mans wife as is shown at Exodus 20:17 "You must not desire your fellowman’s house. You must not desire your fellowman’s wife,..."
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
And here is my big question: how, from the verse below:

5Deaden, therefore, ​YOUR​ body members that are upon the earth as respects fornication, uncleanness, sexual appetite, hurtful desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

Does one gets "in short, God hates Pornography?"


Thanks!

Pornography does not deaden desire for fornication or uncleanness...it arouses it.
If it didnt arouse a physical response in people who view it, it wouldnt sell nor would it get the attention of people.

Why does God hate pornography? Because it leads people down a dark path of addiction and slavery to a habit which can destroy a persons self worth, dignity and their ability to control their actions. It devalues those depicted in it and it debases the person who views it.

God loves us. He doesnt want to see us destroy our lives. He hates anything that has a negative impact on us... and so should we.
 

Big_TJ

Active Member
Pornography does not deaden desire for fornication or uncleanness...it arouses it.
If it didnt arouse a physical response in people who view it, it wouldnt sell nor would it get the attention of people.

Why does God hate pornography? Because it leads people down a dark path of addiction and slavery to a habit which can destroy a persons self worth, dignity and their ability to control their actions. It devalues those depicted in it and it debases the person who views it.

God loves us. He doesnt want to see us destroy our lives. He hates anything that has a negative impact on us... and so should we.
Actually your response is a bit more than I had expected; it seems like preaching about why pornography is bad rather than answering the question.

The question i ask was this: how does someone get, simply by reading Colossian 3:5 which states:

5Deaden, therefore, ​YOUR​ body members that are upon the earth as respects fornication, uncleanness, sexual appetite, hurtful desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

How does one get from that scripture that God hates pornography?

Respectfully,
Big_TJ
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Actually your response is a bit more than I had expected; it seems like preaching about why pornography is bad rather than answering the question.

The question i ask was this: how does someone get, simply by reading Colossian 3:5 which states:

5Deaden, therefore, ​YOUR​ body members that are upon the earth as respects fornication, uncleanness, sexual appetite, hurtful desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

How does one get from that scripture that God hates pornography?

Respectfully,
Big_TJ

the simple answer is because pornography is fornication in pictures. Looking in and allowing oneself to become aroused by pornography is a participation in that fornication.

It arouses sexual appetite, it can lead someone to a desire that becomes hurtful to them when they seek to satisfy it in ways that God disapproves.
 

Big_TJ

Active Member
the simple answer is because pornography is fornication in pictures. Looking in and allowing oneself to become aroused by pornography is a participation in that fornication.

It arouses sexual appetite, it can lead someone to a desire that becomes hurtful to them when they seek to satisfy it in ways that God disapproves.

So two questions: If a married couple makes videos of themselves, then watch it over and over again, is that pornography? And if that it is (which, by definition of pornography it is), what scriptural evidence would there be that God hates it (the "pornography is fornication" argument would not suffice here).

Are you sure that God hates it, or is it that JWs hate it and thinks that God must have hated it too?

Respectfully,
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
So two questions: If a married couple makes videos of themselves, then watch it over and over again, is that pornography? And if that it is (which, by definition of pornography it is), what scriptural evidence would there be that God hates it (the "pornography is fornication" argument would not suffice here).

Are you sure that God hates it, or is it that JWs hate it and thinks that God must have hated it too?

Respectfully,

Ok, so lets be clear here, we've been talking about the sort of pornography one finds in bookstores or on internet sites, not of intimate married couples. However, if a married couple did make such a file, it would certainly be pornography. The definition of pornography is clearly your evidence for that.
If it remained their own library and it was only for them to see, that might be different situation because they are not engaging in fornication with other people.

So to be honest, that scenario (though weird to me) is between the couple and Jehovah. I can't ever recall the WT having anything written about what couples can or can't do in the privacy of their own bedrooms. So i really can't comment on that.


A husband and wife are one flesh. They have the right to display their affection toward one another the way they choose to and if they want to do it in pictures, in paint or in video, they have the right to do that. However, a christian couple would take the principles of love and respect into their intimate relationship. If one was not comfortable with certain things, then the other, out of love and respect, would not attempt to do it. For example, pornea is the term the bible uses for fornication...fornication is forbidden. What fornication includes are various sexual acts such as oral or anal sex...it would also include the use of foreign bodies. Now a chrisitan would take that law into consideration and reject forms of pornea that the bible is against. And a loving marriage mate would not force the other to perform acts which were against that ones conscience. So if something is offensive or degrading, then it would be a violation of biblical principles.

Even though the intimate relationship between the couple is their own private affair, God sees what we do, and so do the angels. This is why we should be sure that what we are doing doesnt directly conflict with the principles & laws we find in Gods word. If it doesnt conflict and our conscience is clean, then we have nothing to worry about. A conscience trained in Gods word will be able to distinguish both right from wrong. And if the couple are not attempting to keep a good relationship with God, then they can do what they want.
 
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Big_TJ

Active Member
Ok, so lets be clear here, we've been talking about the sort of pornography one finds in bookstores or on internet sites, not of intimate married couples. However, if a married couple did make such a file, it would certainly be pornography. The definition of pornography is clearly your evidence for that.
If it remained their own library and it was only for them to see, that might be different situation because they are not engaging in fornication with other people.

So to be honest, that scenario (though weird to me) is between the couple and Jehovah. I can't ever recall the WT having anything written about what couples can or can't do in the privacy of their own bedrooms. So i really can't comment on that.

Ok. So we are on the same page. So let me ask you this: When the Watchtower or Awake! make a bold statement that "God Hates Pornography" and using Colossians 3:5 as scriptural evidence, they are not really being truthful; correct? In other words, as you seem to be saying that God only hate certain types of pornography, not pornopraphy, right?

Secondly, why do you think that ANY type of pornography be ok if "God hates pornography" as stated by the WatchTower?

What fornication includes are various sexual acts such as oral or anal sex...it would also include the use of foreign bodies.
This is interesting . . what's the reference for this? It seems your usage of term Fornication is so broad so it can mean anything... for instance, is interracial marrigage fornication? If you say no, why?

Respectfully . ..
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Is the point that desire need not be sexual? So the scripture is actually saying any desire that takes a person away from God's will to do - to their own will to do - as in James 4:2 "you desire yet you do not have..." and in 2 Peter 3:3 "First, be aware of this: Scoffers will come in the last days to scoff, living according to their own desires"?

I agree it is a serious difference. The word desire will include sexual desire, but sexual desire will not include desiring one's own will over God's will.

Respectfully....

Peace
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Ok. So we are on the same page. So let me ask you this: When the Watchtower or Awake! make a bold statement that "God Hates Pornography" and using Colossians 3:5 as scriptural evidence, they are not really being truthful; correct? In other words, as you seem to be saying that God only hate certain types of pornography, not pornopraphy, right?

Secondly, why do you think that ANY type of pornography be ok if "God hates pornography" as stated by the WatchTower?


firstly, i didnt say pornography was 'ok'

secondly, the Watchtower is always truthful.

I said that what a couple did in their bedroom is between themselves and God. I've never seen an article written by the WT on the view they take of married couples taking pornographic images of themselves. And I would guess that the reason they havn't is because they also dont to tell married couples what they can do in their own bedrooms.

But Colossians 3:5 is clear that 'fornication' which is 'pornea' which is 'all improper use of the sexual organs' is against Gods laws.

if couples want to take naked picks of themselves, there is nothing wrong with that in itself.

This is interesting . . what's the reference for this? It seems your usage of term Fornication is so broad so it can mean anything... for instance, is interracial marrigage fornication? If you say no, why?

Respectfully . ..

Fornication is from the greek word porneia

Bauer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (revised by F.*W. Gingrich and F.*Danker, 1979, p. 693) defines por·nei′a as “prostitution, unchastity, fornication, of every kind of unlawful sexual intercourse.”

Saint Paul’s Epistle to the Ephesians by B.*F. Westcott (1906, p.*76) says: “This is a general term for all unlawful intercourse, (I) adultery: Hos. ii. 2,*4 (LXX.); Matt. v.*32; xix. 9; (2) unlawful marriage, I Cor. v.*I; (3) fornication, the common sense as here [Eph 5:3].”


we didnt make up the definition.


Excuse my ignorance here, but why would you think 'interracial' has anything to do with sexual matters???
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
secondly, the Watchtower is always truthful.

What does this mean to you please?

I have in mind "there is no one that does not sin" 2 Chronicles 6:36 and
1 John 1:8
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Always truthful to me means without sin. Is that not correct? Always truthful means one cannot lie. How can a person be truthful but lie?
 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
What does this mean to you please?

I have in mind "there is no one that does not sin" 2 Chronicles 6:36 and
1 John 1:8
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Alsway truthful to me means without sin. Is that not correct?

no, thats not correct.
 
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