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Colossians 3:17: If you don't believe that Jesus is God, how do you interpret this

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Desert Snake, Jun 2, 2018.

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  1. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Colossians 3:17

    If you don't believe that that is Jesus, by the Father...


    Which deity, are you interpreting this as?
     
  2. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist You are safe

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    It means giving thanks to god through jesus.

    Jesus is called lord because of his role as son of god

    Jesus is not called the creator who, alone, would deserve the title of his actual name not a word (lord, messiah, king) that describes anyone of royalty, authority, and/or divinity, but gods name (which is debated in the other thread)

    …16Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. 17And whatever you do,in word or deed,

    Do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus,giving thanks to God the Father through Him.

    18Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.…
     
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  3. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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  4. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    I believe that you are contradicting yourself. Because, if you are claiming to not be a trinitarian, then why do you need, Jesus, there, at all? Why would you need a saviour?

    That is called a demi-god, son of god, but not man, and not god. I'm not aware of any christian groups that use the title, demi-god.

    There are groups that don't believe Jesus is any type of god, obviously.

    Jesus is called the Creator, though. Well, it doesn't seem like Jesus, is necessary, for, salvation, then.
     
    #4 Desert Snake, Jun 3, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2018
  5. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    I think you are confusing the Father and the Son and The King and His Messenger.

    We are free to worship God through Jesus.

    There are ample examples of scripture that highlight a distinction between God and Jesus. For example:

    Is Jesus God incarnate?

    1 John 4:12
    "No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

    Mark 13:32
    But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

    1 KIngs 8:27
    But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

    Malachi 3:6
    For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

    Scripture seems to imply that Jesus can not possibly be God incarnate.

    Perhaps it would be better to think of Jesus as being a perfect image or reflection of Gods' divine attributes?

    Colossians 1:15 in regards to Jesus
    "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature"

    John 5:19
    Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

    John 8:28
    In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    So in this manner Moses also speaks as God

    Deuteronomy 29:2-6
     
    #5 adrian009, Jun 3, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2018
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  6. outlawState

    outlawState Deism is dead

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    Trinitarians always refuse to distiguish Jesus the man, from Jesus at the right hand of God. They are one and the same, for the Trinitarian. That is not however good theology. They may have the same identity, but they are not equivalent either in form or in purpose. Jesus the man is our justifier and saviour through his resurrection. Jesus at the right hand of God is what is described in John 1:1, and the subject of Col 1:16-18. Jesus the man did not judge. Jesus at the right hand of God is a judge.

    On the contrary, it the Trinitarian who must ask himself, why does he need Jesus the man, when for him, Jesus the man is no different from (i.e the same PERSON) as Jesus at the right hand of God? He might as well have stayed in heaven for according to Trinitarian gnosticism, what is necessary for salvation is belief in the Trinity. If Jesus could have found a way to induce belief in the trinity without coming to earth and dying on a cross, then he need not have done so. So why did not YHWH in the burning bush announce to Moses "We three shall be what we three shall be"? All problems solved?

    Althernatively a docetist approach could have been justified. God the son appearing to die on the cross, as an optical illusion. Trinitarians simply cannot grasp the concept of Jesus as a man.
     
    #6 outlawState, Jun 3, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2018
  7. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist You are safe

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    I think I mention this to another Im speaking with.

    I told him I'm not a christian.
    I understand both view (worship the image of the source or the source itself)
    I disagree with worshiping the image. IF it were me, Id worship the source (non-trinatarian)

    The bible says worship the source. Though, I guess it doesnt matter. Trinitarians dont try to see another persons views. I can.
    True. I understand all views

    Of coure he is.

    Thr creator sent by birth an incarnation of his message of salvation

    This salvation-incarnate showed that the creator is the only person who gives salvation THROUGH his son. (Emphasis intended) Thats why god loves the world that through him, one has ever laating life.

    It you read the whole bible, there are a lot of

    Through
    As
    From
    With
    To
    (Two) as one
    of

    Prepositions show two ideas related to each other

    There is no verse Ive read so far that uses Is to define both jesus and his father as one person/singularity.

    Its always been either a duality before jesus and trinity afterward.

    When I get on my work computer, I'll quote scriptures if you like

    Trinitarians dont make difference between source and incarnation.

    Which is their right. It makes sense.

    Non-trinitarians worship the source apart from the incarnation. They say, by strict definition, believe the image cannot be the source; so, to worship the incarnation as christ said not to do (idalism) is wrong scripturally. Its all about the source. Even jesus says this.)

    I dont need to be christian to understand the logic and simplicity behind the trinity and relationship and importance between creator, savior, spirit.

    I wish trinitarians and nontrinitarians can at least try to see the other persons views. You dont need to change your beliefs to do so. It just makes a conversation more for learning than defense.
     
    #7 Unveiled Artist, Jun 3, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2018
  8. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    It says:
    Whatever you do, in word or in deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father, through him.

    I understand it means, we should do things in the name of Jesus Christ and give thanks to God the Father.
     
  9. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Read the kjv, it says 'god', for Jesus. This is triune, or trinity, or shared godhood. The revised verses aren't wording it correctly, or you already have to know that Jesus is God, to understand the verse.
     
  10. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Note that 'God, and the Father, beside Him'

    You are directly thanking both Jesus, and the Father, at the same time. This means that the Father, is percieving, your thanks.

    In 'through Jesus, to the Father',

    This infers that you aren't thanking , the Father, directly, and that Jesus has to be some sort of conduit, to the Father.

    They mean different things.
     
    #10 Desert Snake, Jun 3, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2018
  11. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, by what I know, Lord can also mean king for example. And Jesus is the king of Jews. I think that scripture doesn’t tell Jesus is God.
     
  12. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Scripture does tell us that Jesus is God
    Here is an example.
    Hebrews 1:1-2 context
    Hebrews 1:5 Father speaking here, to the angels and Jesus
    Hebrews 1:6 Angels worship Jesus, which by the way, means that He is God, anyway, however

    Hebrews 1:8 Jesus here, is directly called God

    The Bible quite clearly, states, that Jesus, is God.
     
  13. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist You are safe

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    1.
    1On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. 2But inthese last days He has spoken to us by His Son,whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

    Jesus has the same nature of his father
    The son is an incarnation
    Incarnation isnt the source but the mirror of it

    Its not context. The verse you quoted is very direct. The incarnation is a conduit to the father not the father himself​

    2.

    4So He became as far superior to the angels as the name He has inherited is excellent beyond theirs. 5Forto which of the angels did God ever say: “You are mySon; today I have become Your Father”? Or again: “I will be His Father, and He will beMy Son”? 6And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all God’s angels worship Him.”

    This is saying: you (jesus) are my son and I become your father
    I will be his (jesus) father and he will be my son

    Hence, given the other verse you quotes, people worship the incarnation because he (christ) is the incarnatiom and conduit to his father -not- to himself.​

    3.

    7Now about the angels He says: “He makes His angels winds, His servants flames of fire.” 8But about the Son He says: Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, andrighteousness will be the scepter of Your kingdom.9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, Your God, has placed You above Your companions by anointing You with the oil of joy.”…

    This is connected to the other verse you quoted about angels worshiping christ. They worship christ as an conduit to the father.​

    They use terms such as lord, god, king, etc to express authority and oneness between two completely seperate people.​

    Jesus is not god. John 3:16 says he is a conduit to god; a go-between.

    He isnt thr creator. He is the savior.

    The bible clearly states you go through christ to get to god.

    Name a direct verse that jesus Is god without using the words: by, through, as, in, from, and to
     
    #13 Unveiled Artist, Jun 6, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
  14. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist You are safe

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    Whatever you call god you call jesus because jesus is a incarnation. Once you mistake christ as god, thats idolism.
     
  15. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    That says:
    “God, having in the past spoken to the fathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, has at the end of these days spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds”.

    It doesn’t say Jesus is God. It tells God has spoken to us by Jesus. Jesus is the mediator between men and God. God gave Jesus order to what he should say.


    For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

    1 Timothy 2:5


    For I spoke not from myself, but the Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. I know that his commandment is eternal life. The things therefore which I speak, even as the Father has said to me, so I speak."

    John 12:49-50

    That says:
    For to which of the angels did he say at any time, "You are my Son, Today have I become your father?" and again, "I will be to him a Father, And he will be to me a Son?"

    Not “Jesus is God”.

    The word “worship” can means several things:
    “used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank:
    - to the Jewish high priests
    - to God
    - to Christ
    - to heavenly beings
    - to demons”


    I think there is nothing that means Jesus is God, if he is higher in rank of them and should get the homage.

    That says:
    “but of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.”

    What do you think, is that refering to PS 45:6(7)-7(8)?

    “Your throne, God, is forever and ever. A scepter of equity is the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness, and hated wickedness. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.”

    But anyway, I think it can be said Jesus is God on earth, because according to the Bible, Jesus is the mediator between God and men. He represents God on earth and acts in the name of God, which is why it can be said, he is the image of God.


    in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins; who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

    Colossians 1:14


    For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

    1 Timothy 2:5
     
  16. GoodbyeDave

    GoodbyeDave Well-Known Member

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    If you do believe that Jesus was God, how do you explain Romans 1.4
    If Jesus was descended from David, surely he must have been the son of Joseph?
     
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