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Featured Colossians 1:16 Jesus the Almighty, [John 1:3, Jesus is God incarnated

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Desert Snake, Aug 16, 2019.

  1. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely ridiculous , so we can't discuss further.
     
  2. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    No, it's religious, and linguistic. You aren't going to be able to read the Hebrew Scriptures, to make any sense, without understanding this.

    Hope you're not Jewish.
     
  3. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Rather, reading any Scripture, using your theory , isn't going to work.
     
  4. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Two of them. Keep it accurate.
    Now...... do you believe that Jesus called out those words? Yes? No?
    Do you accept those gospels?

    You've got your ideas mangled. I read the gospels as a student of historic Jesus. My being a Deist cannot steer my studies. Now..... do you agree with Mark and Matthew's account, or not?

    You really should not presume. Not good.
    You do realise that a man, called Jesus Son-of-the-Father, was arrested after he led a demonstration in Temple and/or City which led to a riot, and that the people loved him so much that they campaigned for his release, which caused Pilate to pardon and release him? Did you know that? The early bibles showed his name clearly as Jesus but his first name was edited out of your bible and his last name left in Eastern Aramaic so that it could remain hidden in plain sight. Jesus Barabba(s)...... and so I still don't know which Jesus was sentenced, Jesus SonoftheFather or Jesus SonofMan. You should read all about it. It's there, but shaded somewhat in your copy.

    I honestly don't mind what you believe as long as it doesn't affect other people or their lives, which unfortunately it has..... for too long.
    I say again, Apostle John was no witness, he was not Johanan BarZebedee, not the disciple.
    I say again, Paul never bothered to learn about Jesus, his life or his real mission. Your beliefs are Pauline........ not much more, I'm afraid.
     
  5. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    As a Theist, in other words, I have a God belief, then I know what a 'real Jesus', would, or would not say, in any context, concerning God, according to my beliefs.

    So, as an adherent to Jesu, [Spirit Form Jesus, contextually, here, of course I don't believe that a real Jesus would say 'g-d why have you forsaken me'. Nor do I believe that a real Jesus, would be the 'riddler rabbi', we encounter, in Scripture, sometimes.

    The real Jesus saying, 'speak plainly'.

    That being said, since you are a deist, it actually is 'your problem', if your head rabbi, says 'g-d why have you forsaken me'. Because the Bible, is theistic. In other words, without the theism, you are relying on a rabbi to speak from authority, thusly any inference to non authority, clearly is something you need to rationalize. You can read the Bible in a non theistic way, yet you cannot read the Bible, as if it isn't Theistic.

    Concerning those verses, and the riddler rabbi, it seems likely it us just a mix up of yeshuas, and thusly, as it is obvious to me, (I have presented discussions that demonstrate this, then, it obviously isn't either the 'real Jesus', or, it means something else.[Because of my Theism.

     
  6. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    So if a muslim or some other religion mentions God, are they naming your God? (No offense meant to any other religions)
     
  7. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    OK..... so you do not accept that the bible is all the word of God.
    I can agree with that because Christians meddled with the gospels somewhat.

    God.... why have you forsaken me? seems to be quite plain, really.

    Wrong. The old laws are clear as day to me, and G-Mark (less the Christian additions) is a clear report.
    By the way............ I don't have a head rabbi, and since I speak English I would use the word 'teacher' or 'leader', I think.

    Ah ha! A mix up of Yeshuas.......... or a mix of reports about just one.
    I am not even sure whether Yeshua BarYosef was crucified, and if he was I'm not sure that he died; G-Mark suggests that he may have been taken down and survived, as later sightings of him could confirm.
     
  8. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    It is written thou shalt not tempt YHWH thy God. If God was his name in this verse then he wouldn't have said YHWH.

    You are too confusing with the things you say for me to even continue this discussion.
     
  9. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    I have got to be honest. I have read some of your other posts and can't tell for sure what you believe, because to me they are confusing.

    Do you believe the Messiah was YHWH dwelling in a fleshly body?
     
  10. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    So are you Jewish? I believe the one God whose name is YHWH didn't have blood to shed for man's sin. So he took on flesh to dwell in and sacrifice for man's sin. I do NOT believe in a Trinity.
     
  11. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    Like this:
    John 14:9 ... he that hath seen me hath seen the Father
    John 14:10 ... the words that I say unto you , I speak not from myself but from the Father abiding in Me doeth His works
    John 14:11 ... I am in the Father and the Father in Me
    John 10:30 I and My Father are one
    John 10:33 ... thou being a man makest Thyself God
    John 8:58 Jesus said ... before Abraham was born, Jah (Jah is the short form of Jehovah)
    John 8:59 They took up stones therefore to cast at Him
    Mark 2:5 and Jesus seeing their faith saith ... thy sins are forgiven
    Mark 2:7 ... who can forgive sins but one, even God
    Mark 10:17 ... good teacher Mark 10:18 Why callest Me good? None is good save one, even God John 10:11 I am the good shepherd
    Mat. 1:21 ... call his name Jesus; for it is He that shall save his people from their sins
    Prophecies of the Messiah Jesus
    Isa. 45:21 ... I, Jehovah? and there is no God else besides Me a just God and savior, there is none besides Me
    Isa. 7:14 ... a sign: behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel (God with us)
    Isa 9:6 a son is given, and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called: Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace

    Attributes of God
    Omnipresence
    John 1:46 Nathaniel saith unto Him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him Before Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
    John 1:49 Nathaniel answered him, Rabbi thou art the Son of God; thou art King of Israel.
    John 1:50 Jesus answered ... thou shalt see greater things than these
    Omniscience
    Luke 6:8 ...the Pharisees watched Him ... that they might find how to accuse him but He knew their thoughts
    John 4:17 ... Thou sayest well, I have no husband
    John 4:18 for thou hast had five husbands and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband
    Omnipotence
    Mark 4:41 ... Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey Him?

    (He turned water into wine, multiplied bread, healed the sick and the blind, raised a man who was dead for four days)
    Authority
    Luke 4:36 ... for with authority and power He commandeth the unclean spirits and they come out
    Mat 7:29 for He taught them as one having authority
    Mat 28:18 ... Jesus ...spake... saying, all authority hath been given unto Me in heaven and on earth
    The "I am" statements of Jesus
    John 8:12 ... I am the light of the world
    John 14:6 ... I am the way, the truth and the life
    John 6:35 ... I am the bread of life
    John 10:9 I am the door, by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved
    John 11:25 ... I am the resurrection and the life
    John 15:1 I am the true vine (this is a reference to Jesus being the Paraclete)
     
  12. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    Like I said before, your making Jesus into God. Did you really take a good look at your verses? Alot of them dont make sense if Jesus was God. I love Isaiah 45, thanks for posting it along with other verses. "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me:" So why are you saying that is wrong? There are Gods beside our God. No... there isnt...... There is one God. Period. Just like the bible says. And the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Your still not understanding God manifestation. God "working" through his son. God "giving" all power and authority to His son. But anyhow......
     
  13. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I am not saying that is wrong. I am saying Jeus is God incarnate and the verses do also.
     
  14. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    quote of Moorea944 I believe God is the creator of all things so this is simply more proof that Jesus is God in the flesh.
    'Yes, God is the creator of all things. But, Jesus wasnt born yet.... What you just stated doesnt even make sense...... God created everything, so how does Jesus come into play if he wasnt even born yet. Look at what you just wrote..

    But also look at 1 Peter and Heb 1 where it says that, "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you," and "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"'

    I believe these are creations.
    John 2:7,8 .....Fill the jars with water.” And they filled them up to the brim. 8 And he said to them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the feast.” So they took it. 9 When the master of the feast tasted the water now become wine....

    John 9:1 As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. 6 ......Then he anointed the man's eyes with the mud 7 and said to him, “Go, wash in the pool of Siloam” (which means Sent). So he went and washed and came back seeing.
     
  15. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    But my point is that why do you bring words into the bible that arent there? Like "incarnate". Do you know what that word actually means?

    Incarnate, God the son, God the Holy Spirit, rapture, etc.... I dont get it.... With all of the words in scripture, why do people have to "make up" words to put into their doctrines. Is there a verse that has "incarnate" in it? If not, why use it.
     
  16. 101G

    101G Member

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    First, Greeting in the name of the Lord Jesus to all. this is my first day here on the fourm. this is an interesting topic. but addressing the OP, having not read all the replies, I must agree with Desert Snake so far. consider this, using the John 1:3 verse, John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." the him here in verse 3 is referring to the word in verse 1, which is christ Jesus. knowing that we want to consider this verse. Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"
    now several things come into mind.
    #1.Who made all things?, the Person in Isaiah 44:24 is the same person in John 1:3, for there is only one maker/Creator. well that would eliminate any 3 person doctrine.
    #2. the person in Isaiah 44:24 states he was alone and by himself when he created all things. (so this rule out going through anyone else, or by anyone else, for he was alone, and by himself.
    #3. if he was alone, and God is everywhere then it's only one Person who created everything, again eliminating any several persons.

    I'll stop here and let this digest in. and then we can discuss Genesis 1:26 and examine .Matthew 3:17 and get some clear understanding as to who and what God is.

    PICJAG
     
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  17. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    @Smoggie and @Deeje.

    I did not want to enter this debate but followed enough of the early stages of this thread to make a single, historical point.

    In the early portion of this thread, @Smoggie and @Deeje were discussing the name Jehovah and whether it existed in the Septuagint.

    Smoggie Said : “ Jehovah was never used in the NT. It was not used in the Septuigiant.
    It was not used in the Koine “ (post #43)
    This was in response to Deeje’s claim
    Deeje Said : “…some very old fragments of the Greek Septuagint version that existed in Jesus’ day had been discovered. Those fragments contain the personal name of God, written in Hebrew characters."

    Deeje attempted to offer a picture of a papyrus Fouad inv. 266 that mixes Greek with the early tetragrammaton to support the claim that the greek LXX originally had the Hebrew Tetragrammaton in it. The example does not support that conclusion.


    I simply want to point out that Smoggie is actually correct in his specific claim that the Greek Septuagint did not have the Hebrew tetragrammaton in it. Nor do we have any text that demonstrates the Greek Septuagint originally had the Hebrew Tetragrammaton in it.

    The example Deeje offered of Papyrus P Fouad (inv. 266) is NOT an example supporting a theory that early Septuagints had the tetragrammaton in them. P. fouad seems to have been a Greek Old Testament commissioned by a Jew who wanted to replace the normal Greek Kurios, with the Hebrew tetragrammaton. The picture is, itself, an example of this. The picture shows clearly that the Greek copier simply left space after the word “παρα” in Deut 18:16. The sentence reads “κατα παντα οσα ητησω παρα (here a space is left)” And in the space that is purposefully left by the copier, the Hebrew letters are placed into the greek text by an entirely different pen. One cannot tell if the Greek copier did not know Hebrew or if the texts owner had the Hebrew placed into the text by another copier or himself did this. However, it is clear, even from the picture that the Hebrew is not part of the original Greek copiers work.

    Thus, P Fouad is an example where the Tetragrammaton was ADDED to a single, early, Septuagint and in no way shows the Hebrew tetragrammaton was taken out of the authentic version of the Greek Septuagint.

    In any case, I hope your spiritual journeys are good and wonderful.


    Clear
    ειακακφιω
     
    #177 Clear, Sep 26, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2019
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  18. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe you could say of the sky that it has red and orange and yellow and blue and purple colors or you can just call it a sunset. The word sunset explains the concept of different colors in the sky. It is the same with concepts in the Bible. Instead of having to read a whole paragraph about something, the concept can be represented by one word.

    So one could go on about all the scriptures that pertain to God residing in the body of Jesus or just say incarnate instead.
     
  19. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe it does not. It simply means the Spirit of God which exists in all three persons of the Trinity is one personality and therefore one person by that definition. However The spirit of God in a body is a different type of person than the Father who is just Spirit and different from the Paraclete which is God in the body of believers that have their own spirit.
     
  20. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    Or we can say that it's just false doctrine..........
     
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