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Featured Colossians 1:16 Jesus the Almighty, [John 1:3, Jesus is God incarnated

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Desert Snake, Aug 16, 2019.

  1. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    However these ideas do not represent the Yahweh found in the Old Testament, who is very personal. Your description of the demiurge, clearly matches Yahweh, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. Your idea requires some sort of gnostic variance, where we don't get that idea from traditional religion. You get that idea, the 'impersonal yahweh', concept, from much later religious morphology, it doesn't fit the scriptures, and even if it was a belief extant at the time, since the scriptures present a totally different yahweh, then you're talking about something abstract. The yahweh that this group believes in even though it isn't the g-d portrayed in scripture, at all.

    Way too theoretical, and even odd for gnostics, who were literal.

    Jesus says this, so forth. It's literal representation, not completely non'textual
     
  2. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    So, if Paul did not write 1 Timothy, who did?
     
  3. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Even the youngest of the Tanakh's books were a couple of centuries or more old by the second half of the 1st century CE, and the religious culture had continued to evolve in various directions, just as in the Tanakh we see Yahweh develop from a tribal god in the Canaanite pantheon to Isaiah's monogod and among the Jews (admittedly more in Alexandria than in Jerusalem) the increasing influence of Greek culture on Jewish thought since Alexander's conquest of their territories in 320 BCE or so.
    In the Tanakh and in Jewish culture Yahweh created the world. But Paul expressly says that Jesus, son and servant of God, created the world, giving Jesus the demiurge role. As you know, the author of Mark, and after him the synoptic authors of Matthew and Luke disagreed, while the author of John was on Paul's side.

    That is, there's not one Jesus in the NT, there are at least five, and that results in five Christologies, some of which are reasonably close to each other and some quite a way apart.
    I'm not telling you anything you can't check for yourself by reading Paul and the four gospels.
    It's not my idea. I have no wish at all that any of them should say particular things or not say them, only in what actually got written; and I've quoted you various relevant NT quotes accordingly.
    I'm not speaking as a believer but from an historical point of view. In other words, I don't require any particular shape to it or message from it, particularly any single message, and it would be idle to do that since there isn't one.
     
  4. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Don't look at me. I was nowhere near Israel in the first couple of centuries CE.
     
  5. calm

    calm 12/9/2019

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    If you were familiar with this topic you would notice the similarity.
    Again:
    A programmer creates a video game, thus he can create his own world with his own laws. He is the creator of a "world". It is the same with God and this world(the whole universe), we are a created "video game" and God is our "programmer". One day the programmer wanted to get into his own game, but since it's not possible for the programmer to get into his own video game, he created his own character. The character is the visible image of the invisible programmer. Anyone who sees the character of the programmer in the game sees in truth the programmer. The programmer is in his character and thus he is connected to his game through his character.
    Don't you notice the similarity? The character is Jesus and the father is the programmer. Through Jesus God came into this world. God became man.

     
    #85 calm, Aug 19, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2019
  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Just as a sidenote.....

    John 1 :18 is mistranslated here. I do not know exactly what translation you are using but many pro-trinitarian translations slaughter this verse to make it read like John 1:1.

    In John 1:1 we see "theos" (without the definite article) used to insinuate that Jesus is God. John 1:18 being rendered "the only son" is a mistranslation of "theos" in this verse. "Theos" is "god" so John 1:18 should read...
    "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten god who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."

    If they translate "god" in verse 1, then they should also have "god" in verse 18.
    If it is translated "son" in verse 18, then it should also be "son" in verse 1.

    Even the Mounce has messed this one up trying to promote the trinity.

    " No one oudeis has horaō ever pōpote seen horaō God theos. The only monogenēs Son , himself God theos, the ho one who is eimi in eis the ho bosom kolpos of the ho Father patēr, he ekeinos has made him known exēgeomai."

    It does not say "The only son himself God" at all. "Monogenes" is translated "only begotten" but missing in the English translation you used...and "theos" is "god", so this should read "only begotten god" as it does in the NASB. Since God is not "begotten, then this "theos" is not the Almighty....but a lesser God-like one.
     
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  7. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Don’t forget that, actually, in the ancient manuscripts, there’s only one “Lord” written, the second one. The first “LORD” is YHWH (Yahweh).

    That Jewish superstition of God’s name being “too holy to write”, substituting Adonai, has really led to so much confusion! And helped contribute to the rise of Trinitarian belief among many professed Christians.

    They’re trying to use it right now!

    That was a masterstroke by the Devil, getting people to remove God’s own Name from His own book.
    Yahweh / Jehovah has put up with so much.
    I believe It will only be when people come back to life in the Resurrection, that all will finally “know that I am Jehovah.”
    Ezekiel 38:23.
     
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  8. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    No, the theory is abstract, because if they believed the demiurge to be J'---s, then they would not be praising, or considering J---s to be 'good', you would have a priestly sacrifice, J---s, would be 'bad', so forth.
     
  9. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    First of all, David know his God. David NEVER called the coming Messiah Yahweh. David knew that the messiah would come from him. 2 Sam 7.

    I really dont understand why you think that Jesus is Yahweh, our Creator, just because he's called Lord..... Lord is a title of authority. Again..... who else was called 'Lord" in scripture... Moses, Abraham, angels, etc..... Uggghhh!!
     
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  10. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    You didn't answer the question, nor did I say that Dovid called Jesus, yahweh.

    The question, again,

    Psalms 110:1

    Matthew 22:37-46
    'David calls me Lord', Jesus says.

    So which Lord, in Psalms 110:1

    Is Jesus referring to, when He says, 'David calls me Lord'.
     
  11. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    I'm tired of this one. I'm leaving this nonsense conversation.
     
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    From the Tanach....
    Psalm 110:1-2
    "Of David a psalm.
    The word of the Lord to my master; "Wait for My right hand, until I make your enemies a footstool at your feet." אלְדָוִ֗ד מִ֫זְמ֥וֹר נְאֻ֚ם יְהֹוָ֨ה | לַֽאדֹנִ֗י שֵׁ֥ב לִֽימִינִ֑י עַד־אָשִׁ֥ית אֹֽ֜יְבֶ֗יךָ הֲדֹ֣ם לְרַגְלֶֽיךָ:

    2The staff of your might the Lord will send from Zion; rule in the midst of your enemies. במַטֵּ֚ה עֻזְּךָ֗ יִשְׁלַ֣ח יְ֖הֹוָה מִצִיּ֑וֹן רְ֜דֵ֗ה בְּקֶ֣רֶב אֹֽיְבֶֽיךָ:"


    The "Lord" is Yahweh. This is the word of Yahweh to David's "Master"...his Lord, not his God.

    He was to 'wait at God's right hand till his enemies were placed as a stool for his feet'. According to Matthew 5:34-35, the earth is God's footstool, so it appears as if Jesus had to wait for a certain time period of time when the earth is ready for his coming to clean it all up. Just like the days of Noah, Jesus said. Are we there yet? I believe we are. (Matthew 24:37-39)

    The "staff" indicating the Master's authority is given to the one who is sent by Yahweh, and David's Master was to rule "in the midst of [his] enemies", meaning that his rulership would not at first be peaceful. Jesus said he came to cause division even among families....to test people's loyalty to God. (Matthew 10:34-39) In these last days, the testing is almost complete.

    The scripture you cited in Matthew 22:37-46 says....
    "Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them: 42 “What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?” They said to him: “David’s.” 43 He asked them: “How is it, then, that David under inspiration calls him Lord, saying, 44 ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies beneath your feet”’? 45 If, then, David calls him Lord, how is he his son?” 46 And nobody was able to say a word in reply to him, and from that day on, no one dared to question him any further."

    What wonderful logic! Jesus' own reasoning on this proves that he is both David's son and "Lord" (Master) because of his lineage, and because of the authority bestowed upon him by his God. The only way that Jesus could be both a son and Master to David is if he is sent by God to teach David's people and lead them to God's Kingdom. Jesus fulfilled both of those requirements.
     
    #92 Deeje, Aug 19, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2019
  13. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    In other words, that directly follows what Jesus may have meant,

    Matthew 22:37-46

    By J-sus saying that David calls Him Lord,

    And, means that
    Psalms 110,

    Is about Jesus, [Adonai according to traditional belief.

    You are not translating Adonai, correctly, though, it is Lord.

    The question is why wasn't that basically derived answer presented, in the first place?

    • now in traditional christian belief, Jesus, Adonai, is of course God,

    'Adonai Elohim',
     
  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    :facepalm: Nobody twists scripture quite like you....

    Yahweh speaks to David’s Lord (Master)....does God talk to himself?

    I give up.....:confused:
     
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  15. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    Genesis 1:26
    'Make man in our image, '
    [So the answer would be yes, unless your entity is a pantheon of deities. According to your own definition of 'g-d', satan, beezlebub, zeus, etc are all included when you read 'g-d',
    Like in Genesis 1:26
    ...
     
  16. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    We'll have to agree to disagree.

    The gnostic ideas are present in Paul and in John, not in the others. The word 'demiurge' isn't used, but the relationship of Jesus to God as portrayed in Paul and John gives Jesus resemblances to the demiurge in the manner I've pointed out.

    Likewise the bible is made up of different books written at different times and places by different people for different purposes and agendas. There's no single message in the bible; and in the NT there are at least five distinct and frequently incompatible biographies and Christologies of Jesus.
     
  17. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    That's fine, a different type of gnostic belief.


    Evening
     
  18. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Oh, my goodness....
    Jehovah God was talking * to * someone!!

    Not himself.

    Jesus and the other sons of God existed before the Earth was created. -- Job 38:4-7
     
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  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    It is pointless explaining anything to someone who just can't read scripture because they have no idea of the other scriptures that prove them wrong.....You continue to take verses out of context and misapply the meanings of original language words.....where do you get your conclusions? Are they yours...or are you getting your information from someone equally ignorant of scripture? :shrug:

    Genesis 1:26 is backed up by Proverbs 8:30-31 and also Colossians 1:15-17.
    The pre-human Jesus was the "Master Worker" alongside his Father in Creation. Jesus is not the Creator...he is the fabricator of what God produced when he began his creative works. As @Hockeycowboy has affirmed, material creation came about a long time after creation in the spirit realm. Angels....myriads of them, were brought into existence long before the universe came into being.

    Why do you adhere to so many erroneous conclusions....you appear to be completely uneducated in the topic you pretend to know so much about...you are entitled to your view, but IMO it is completely unsupported by the Bible.
     
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  20. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    What's nonsense about it? Would like to know...
     
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