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Featured Colossians 1:16 Jesus the Almighty, [John 1:3, Jesus is God incarnated

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Desert Snake, Aug 16, 2019.

  1. Desert Snake

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    John 1:3

    Colossians 1:16

    These verses are clearly saying that Jesus, the Lord, is the God whom all things were created, so forth. It's quite obvious.
    Hebrews 1:8.

    So, in a direct reading, not [whatever non direct argument your church makes, if you as a christian don't believe this, then what is your argument?

    If there is only one Lord of Christians, believers, then

    2 Corinthians 6:18
    Has to mean Jesus.
    'Lord Almighty'

    If you don't believe this, how do you reconcile the direct words.
    We're talking about direct words, here, however if you have some other argument, that's fine.

    Agape! Shalom...
     
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  2. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    I don't agree with you, but you have the freedom to your beliefs. Don't forget the First Amendment to the Constitution.

    When Jesus was Baptized, how could God be pleased with his own son if he as God? Yes well do as you wish.
     
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  3. Desert Snake

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    You mean you don't agree with the Bible. I presented verses.
     
  4. Desert Snake

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    You need to read an argument instead of making up random things
     
  5. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member
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    Human reasoning attempting to put God into a human box. It doesn´t work.
     
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  6. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    u
    You are distorting what I said.

    Matt 3:16 16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

    Gosh !!! Do you have a Computer? Can you use Google? I'm pretty sure that every version of the Bible is available on Bible Hub and there are several other sites. Access and understanding of the Bible is not special to the diligent and Computer savvy. Are you listening to some shouty Pastor who insists he is a Prophet of God or has special and unique guidance from God?

    I'm going to stop talking to you unless I see some evidence that you are doing your own research. You have the individual Priesthood of the Believer.
    A study of the New Testament reveals that all Christians are priests. Peter said, "...You also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." (1 Pet. 2:5). Thus, all Christians are of that holy priesthood and can offer spiritual sacrifices to God. All have the right to go directly to God through Jesus Christ, our High Priest (Heb. 4:14-16).

    The Christian Churches, including the Mormons are a mess! When you stand before God to be judged, he won't listen to "Pastor George told me it was so". So, to save your own skin, you have to study, pray and search your heart on your own, NO FREE RIDE.

    RANT OFF
     
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  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Is it? Single verses again? Out of context again? Don't you ever stop to read the rest of the passage of scripture that you quote?

    John 1:1-4...
    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.
    What has come into existence 4 by means of him was life, and the life was the light of men."


    So here we see the Word (Logos, Jesus as God's spokesman) being "with God" "in the beginning". How can he be "with" God if he is God?

    Then we have to ask...the beginning of what? God is an infinite Being, having no beginning or end. So this has to be the beginning of creation. God's son was his "firstborn" according to the second scripture you cited. He is called "only-begotten" (Monogenes) which is used in scripture to describe an only child. God has many sons, so why is the "firstborn" different from God's other sons?

    In context V 16 of Colossians 1:13-17 reads...
    "He rescued us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all things were made to exist".

    What do you see in that passage that clarifies the verse you isolated? He is the "image" of his Father and an image is only a reflection of something...a representation of the original.
    As "firstborn" the son was the only direct creation of his Father. The son was then used as the one "through whom" all things were created. That does not make Jesus the Creator because there is only one Creator...Yahweh. Jesus fashioned everything from the raw materials that God had made. He is the construction manager used by the Master Architect.

    Proverbs 8:30-31 describes God's "Master Worker" alongside of him in creation. He is the "us" and "our" of Genesis 1:26.

    You never do a "direct reading" because you take verses in isolation, out of their proper context.
    It doesn't matter how often it is shown to you....you keep doing the same thing, over and over.
    Do you care about the truth or do you just have to be right?

    What if Jesus is not God? What would it change about the ransom? Do you know what a ransom is?

    The verse you have isolated again is meaningless without its context.

    This is the apostle Paul giving counsel to the Corinthian Christians.

    He told them..."Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beʹli·al? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 “‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” 18 “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.” (2 Corinthians 6:14-18)

    It was for good reason that Paul offered such counsel...the city of Corinth was rife with false worship and immorality.

    Paul there quoted several passages out of the OT. In verse 18 its is from Isaiah 43:6 and Hosea 1:10.

    This is talking about God not Jesus. Jesus is never said to have "sons and daughters" he is said to have "brothers". (Matthew 25:40) How can those be his "brothers" and at the same time be his "sons and daughters"?

    Can you listen to the scriptures for once?
     
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  8. Desert Snake

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    Genesis 1:26

    Is 'God', if you're saying that Jesus is the creator in Genesis 1:26,

    Then you are saying that Jesus is God, [and the creator.
     
  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    :facepalm: Why do I bother.....? Do you have a problem with comprehension?
     
  10. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member
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    It is correct when quoting the Bible to identify the translation you are using.

    You are using the JW Bible, the New World Translation. It mistranslates hundreds of words and verses, including John 1:1 Every translation and the original Koine Greek says ¨ in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the WORD WAS GOD.¨ Because the Bible you use has been manipulated to support the JW Arian belief, it cannot be relied upon.
     
  11. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe I am pleased with myself that I can believe God is often pleased with Himself.
     
  12. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe you are entitled to rant if you like. I see that you mentioned the Priesthood of Believers which is a nice Baptist belief I hold to but you should remember that this comes by the Holy Spirit not by human reasoning.
     
  13. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe I did not bother with you. The problem isn't comprehension but a predisposition to follow blindly a teaching. At least I can say I don't do that.
     
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  14. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    I don't see it as a "Baptist" belief. It is right there in the Bibles I've used. It is odd though that some passages, Pastors will try to explain away. I've had Catholic Priests I've spoken to about certain passages say things like "This is a mystery" and then come up with some gobbledygook. I don't know of any passage that tells me that God will excuse my sin because a Pastor told me to do it.
     
  15. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member
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    Actually the concept of the priesthood of all believers came from God through Paul. Martin Luther rediscovered it while fighting the Catholic Church. ( spiritually, nor physically )
     
  16. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    Mathew, Mark, Luke and John, I'm easy with, especially Mathew. It's been a long road. As a youngster around 15 or 16 (1962?) a Pot Washer in a Hospital Kitchen I worked in gave me a Red Bible. In it, there was a passage that said,"The Black Man will be satan's henchman". Later in life, I have tried to figure out if it was a JW Bible, or a Mormon one? Both have had their dark periods.

    Later, in 1974, in a period of Spiritual Quickening, I read the whole Bible (KJV) through like a book in about 2 weeks. I wasn't to the "Prayer and Meditation" place yet. One or two books in the OT were such a trudge with their genealogy that I was not diligent with them. Still, I read the whole OT and decided that God was kind and patient. It seemed to me that it was a profound act of mercy that he didn't just wipe man out entirely and come out with revision 2 of man?

    I was easy with the four Gospels, feeling that I knew and would follow Jesus. From Acts on to Revelation was a disappointment. I was never easy with the Murder of Ananias and Sapphira. By the time I finished the NT, I felt that who ever wrote it was not a likeable person, and I would never want to know them. The book of Revelation was hard to understand, and parts of it are still confusing.

    It is disappointing to me that there are so many Denominations in Christianity. I left it in 2003. Islam is just as messed up. The Jews are so irascible, by in large that I don't get them. Anyone who would refuse to push an Elevator button on Shabat...It's not something I can comprehend.

    Hence the reason for being an Abrahamic Religionist. I can honestly worship God, Allah SWT, G_d in whatever form he takes, even knowing that he is largely unknowable. As to Jesus, Isa PBUH I don't have to understand it all. I don't believe that any of us do. It is confusing to me why people don't use the research resources available to them in doing religious investigation. So many seem so dependent upon their Pastor or Imam in an unhealthy way...

    These days, I am completely alone, and understand that it could be God's will. Jesus speaks about distractions. I'm still just as bent (C.S. Lewis) as everyone else, but there is the freedom to try to do better, with no one to blame for my failings except the one in the Mirror.
     
  17. steveb1

    steveb1 Member

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    The NT does not view Jesus as God. Even in John's Gospel Jesus explicitly excludes himself from the Godhead in John 17:3, where he calls the Father "you, the only true God". Later in John, Jesus says he's ascending to "my God and your God". Obviously only a creature can have a God, so Jesus can't be God.

    The OP's scriptural citation - -

    Colossians 1:16
    16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

    - - describes Jesus not as God, but rather as God's agent of creation. In the NT, God or Yahweh is the one and only Creator. Jesus is the means, the method, the vehicle and ordained agent of God's creative will. That is why Colossians says not that Jesus created all things, but rather that all things were created in him and through him.

    If the NT thought that Jesus is God, then it would be replete with prayer to Jesus as God. However, NT prayer is never directed to Jesus as to God.
    Rather, NT prayer is always addressed to God in or through Jesus - just as Colossians says that Creation took place in and through Jesus.

    There is no unambiguous NT evidence that Jesus is God.
     
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  18. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    It beats me how people come up with the idea that Jesus is God. I think it may be satanic.
     
  19. steveb1

    steveb1 Member

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    I don't know if it's so evil as to be satanic, but it's sure wrong-headed, and it left a paper trail via what we know about the Church Councils that turned Jesus as the Jewish-sectarian Son of God into the Hellenized "God the Son". Not content with keeping Jesus as the heavenly Son of Man, the Greco-Roman church wanted to have a Pagan God they could see and touch - a God-Man, so they elected Jesus into the position of the Second Person in a "holy" Trinity...
     
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  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    shmogie, can I ask you why it is so important that the trinity is true? What would happen to Christ's sacrifice if he wasn't God? How would the mechanics of the ransom be affected if Jesus was 100% human and not God at all? How does the ransom sacrifice work? Why is Christ called our "redeemer"? How did redemption work in Bible times? Can you explain?

    Why is such an important belief (the very nature of the God we claim to worship) essentially unsubstantiated in God's word? How did it become the very foundation of Christendom's beliefs when there are no direct statements to support it?

    Jesus never taught it....the Jews never believed their God was a triune entity, and there is not a single statement from Jesus himself, or from his Father that they are one of three equal parts to God? To the contrary, there are many statements from Jesus and his apostles that show there was no trinity in their religious concepts. It is a clear adoption from pagan beliefs. Google pagan trinities and see how many there are.....

    As far as the scriptures go....read John 1:1 in the Interlinear....

    There are two "gods" mentioned in that verse. In Greek "theos" is the word they use for their own deities. These "gods" were all identified by their names, and collectively, they were simply called "the gods". The meaning of "theos" in Greek is simply a "mighty one". Because the Jews had stopped using God's name, and Jesus was also called by the same title "Lord", the only way to distinguish between these 'divine mighty ones' was to use the definite article, (the) especially so when mentioning them together. I have explained this so many times and posted the Greek translation to highlight that very fact, but it continues to fall on deaf ears.

    Read it in the Interlinear. You will see the definite article is used for "the Word" (ho logos) and "the God" (ho theos) but not for the Word being "ho theos".....the Word was just "theos" without the definite article in the second statement. You won't see that in the English translation because it suits them not to mention it. You can see it for yourself in a word for word Greek to English Interlinear. It's not just in the NWT.

    In Greek it reads....."In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God and the Word was god".
    No definite article for the second theos, means "a god"...not "the God". This is how it is translated in many other verses. There is no indefinitive article ("a" or "an") in Greek, so translators must add it to make sense in English. How many times has "a" or "an" been used in NT scripture? To quibble over its use in this verse is ridiculous! The only reason it is disputed is because of the trinity, which was not even believed when the NT was penned.

    No trinity argument stands up to scriptural scrutiny. There is inference and that is seized upon to push a blasphemy of monumental proportions. If Jesus is put in place of God or even on equal footing with him, it is a breach of the first Commandment (Exodus 20:3) and satan has been very successful in spreading his "weeds" all through Christendom. Getting the uneducated and unwary to separate themselves from the true God by substituting another "god" in his place. The fact that it is Jesus blinds them to the insidious substitution. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)
     
    #20 Deeje, Aug 17, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
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