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Featured COL 2:16 And The Sabbath - Are You Being Told The Truth?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by 3rdAngel, Nov 1, 2019.

  1. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Yah, they are. They are in the apostolic succession, according to the Apostles’ fellowship and teaching.

    Again, yes I have; you just don’t want to see it.

    These apostles haven’t broken any commandments.

    ...which, as I’ve shown, includes Tradition.
     
  2. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Nope they are not and you have no scripture to support your claims. According to the scriptures the GREEK word for apostle is ἀπόστολος; apostolos From G649; a delegate ; and means specifically an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ (" apostle" ), (with miraculous powers): - apostle, messenger, he that is sent.
    According to the scriptures there was only 12 of them *MATTHEW 10:1-5; MARK 3:14; LUKE 6:13; LUKE 22:14; ACTS 1:2 who were the eye witnesses of JESUS and his teachings and were sent of God to share the gospel with the world. Anyone after the Apostles are disciples.
    Your response...
    Sure I do. Please post it
    Indeed the Apostles have not broken any of the commandment yet you claim they taught that God's 4th commandment has been abolished and we are not commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day for which there is no scripture and when pressed on your claims you are not able to prove them. This only proves to me you claims are not biblical and you are following man made teachings and traditions handed down to Christianity that are not biblical. According to the scriptures alone, JESUS and all the Apostles kept God's 4th commandment and so should we.

    I believe according to the scriptures if anyone claims to speak for God and break his commandments they are lying and not from God.

    1 JOHN 2:3-4 [3], And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
    [4], He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    ISAIAH 8:20 To the law and to the testimony (scriptures): if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

    I believe only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God that JESUS and others warn us about in MATTHEW 15:3-9; ROMANS 3:4; ACTS 5:29 in the scriptures.

    Does it concern you that you are not following Apostolic teachings (scripture) and your putting man made traditions and teachings over the very words of JESUS and the APOSTLES? It should.

    Hope this helps :)
     
  3. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Yes. They are, whether you believe that or not. I don't need scripture -- other than the scripture that shows the apostles electing replacements for themselves (such as Matthias). I have the apostles' tradition.

    I am following the apostles' teaching. Aren't you concerned that you're not?
     
  4. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    The apostles electing replacment for themselves is not the same as a tradition that leads others away from God's Word to break the commandments of God which is what JESUS is warning us about in MATTHEW 15:3-9 and what PAUL is talking about in ACTS 5:29.
    I believe no one is following the Apostles teachings if they are following teachings that break the commandments of God that lead others away from believing and following Gods' Word. According to the scriptures I believe this is an antichrist as JESUS is the living Word of God *JOHN 1:1-4; 14 who has given us the written Word therefore anthing against the Word is antichrist. (opposed to Christ the living Word) IMO. For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it. *ROMANS 3:4; ACTS 5:29. I believe according to the scriptures that any man made teaching or tradition that denies God's Word or breaks his commandments is not of God *1 JOHN 2:3-4; MATTHEW 15:3-9 :)
     
  5. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    No one in the apostolic tradition is going against apostolic tradition.
     
  6. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    That is not true it is simply denial of the scriptures not supported by evidence. Read the OP. For example, can you please show me where in all the bible does is say (Scripture please)...

    1. That God's 4th commandments 7th day Sabbath has been abolished?

    2. That Jesus is a Sabbath?

    3. The Sabbath (seventh day) was ever changed from the seventh to the first day of the week?

    4. Where we are told to keep the first day of the week holy?

    5. Where the first day of the week (Sunday) is ever called a holy day?

    6. That says that Jesus ever kept the first day (Sunday)?

    7. That tells us to keep the first day in honour of the resurrection of Christ?

    8. Where the first day is ever given any sacred name?

    9. That affirms that any of the apostles ever kept the first day as the Sabbath?

    10. From any apostolic writings that authorizes Sunday observance as the Sabbath of God?

    11. Where we are told not to work on the first day of the week?

    12. That says the seventh day is no longer God's Sabbath day?

    13. That says the seventh day Sabbath is ABOLISHED?

    14. Where the apostles ever taught any convert to keep the first day of the week as a Sabbath?

    15. Where the first day was ever appointed to be kept as the Lord's Day?

    16. Where the first day of the week is ever called the Lord's Day?

    17. That says that the first day of the week was ever sanctified and hallowed as a day of rest?

    18. That says that the Father or the Son (Jesus) rested on the first day of the week?

    19. That says that Jesus, Paul or any other of the apostles taught anyone to observe the first day of the week as the Sabbath?

    20. That calls the seventh day the “Jewish Sabbath” or one text that calls Sunday the “Christian Sabbath”?

    21. Telling man to keep the first day of the week holy or to worship or rest on the first day of the week?

    22. Authorizing anyone to set aside God's Sabbath and observe any other day?

    23. Showing any of the apostles keeping the first day of the week as the Sabbath?

    24. Authorizing someone to set aside the fourth Commandment and observe any other day of the week?

    25. Where any apostle taught us to keep the first day of the week as the Sabbath?

    26. Declaring that the seventh day is no longer the Eternal Sabbath day?

    27. Where Sunday is now appointed to be kept as the New Testament Sabbath or holy day?

    ...................

    Where does it teach in the bible these teachings?
    1. The merit of Mary and the Saints can be applied to Catholics and others
      1. 1477, "This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission in the unity of the Mystical Body."

    2. Penance is necessary for salvation
      1. CCC 980, “This sacrament of Penance is necessary for salvation for those who have fallen after Baptism, just as Baptism is necessary for salvation for those who have not yet been reborn."

    3. Purgatory
      1. CCC 1031, "The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:
      2. CCC 1475, "In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. Between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things." In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.

    4. Indulgences
      1. CCC 1471, "The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance. What is an indulgence? 'An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints.' 'An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin.' The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead."
      2. CCC 1478, "An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishments due for their sins. Thus the Church does not want simply to come to the aid of these Christians, but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity.
      3. CCC 1498, "Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls in Purgatory."
      4. CCC 1472, "...On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin..."

    5. Mary (there are many false doctrines concerning Mary found in Roman Catholicism, here are a few)
      1. Mary is Mediatrix, CCC 969, "Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.'"
      2. Mary brings us the gifts of eternal salvation, CCC 969, "Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation..."
      3. Mary delivers souls from death, CCC 966, "...You [Mary] conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death."

    6. Prayer to the saints
      1. CCC 2677, "By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the 'Mother of Mercy,' the All-Holy One. We give ourselves over to her now, in the Today of our lives. And our trust broadens further, already at the present moment, to surrender 'the hour of our death' wholly to her care."

    7. The Communion elements become the actual body and blood of Christ
      1. CCC 1374, "In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained."
      2. CCC 1376, "The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation."

    8. Man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God supersede the Word of God
    .............

    The above are only a few man made teachings and traditions that break the commandmetns of God and lead others away from the scriptures which are the Apostolic teachings (the Word of God) and traditions (obeying the Word of God).


    These examples are only a few. Something to think about here because we are all accountable to God come judgment day where we will all be judged by the Word of God (John 12:47-48).

    God's Word makes it very clear that if we follow the teachings of men over the Word of God we are not following God...

    MATTHEW 15:3-9 [3],
    [3], But he answered and said unto them, Why do you also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
    [4], For God commanded, saying, Honor your father and mother: and, He that curses father or mother, let him die the death.
    [5], But you say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift devoted to God, whatsoever you might have received from me;
    [6], And honors not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have you made the commandment of God void by your tradition.
    [7], You hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
    [8], These people draw near unto me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
    [9], But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

    I believe if we are KNOWINGLY breaking ANY of God's commandments we are not worshipping God according to the scriptures or are we following Apostolic teachings which are the Word of God.

    Look forward to your thoughts...:)
     
    #906 3rdAngel, Jan 20, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2020
  7. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    I’ve already told you that sola scriptura is heresy, and I will NOT be confined to a “bible only” stance. The Bible is part of apostolic teaching, but not the whole of it. this is where you go completely off the rails, because the Faith was never confined to the scriptures until the heresy spawned by the Reformation, 1500 years after the birth of the Faith. These things don’t have to be biblical in order to be legitimate apostolic teaching.

    You’re taking a lot of these passages out of context, proof-texting to match your preconceived beliefs. I pay no attention to such irresponsible nonsense.

    How little you understand The Faith, the Apostles’ teaching, or the Bible.
     
  8. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense! Maybe you would like to explain how in your view that sola scriptura which means scruipture alone is heresy when the scriptures alone are Apostolic teachings and tradition? Your contradicting yourself here. As you claim only Apostolic teaching and traditions are important yet it is the scriptures given us from the Apostles that are Apostolic teachings and traditions that you deny.

    I have provided context and scripture proof as evidence that your claims are in error. You make claims that I have taken scripture out of context without proving your claims. If you belief I have taken scripture out of context to this conversation then prove it. Simply you saying so does not help you or anyone else here and only shows that you cannot respond to the truth that is being shared with you.

    On the other hand it seems you have been provided evidence that you simply close your eyes to and ignore or can you prove any of your claims which are simply your opinion. The reformation only pointed people back to what they had turned away from - The true Apostolic teachings and traditions (the Word of God) from which the Church turned away from.

    Does this now worry you? It should. It is the Word of God alone according to the scriptures that will be our judge come judgment day *JOHN 12:47-48 :)
     
    #908 3rdAngel, Jan 20, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
  9. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    No, the scriptures are part of apostolic teaching, but certainly not the whole of it. I’m afraid you’re quite in error here.

    NO. You have not.

    Uh, no. The Bible isn’t going to be our judge.

    That the best you got? Because it doesn’t wash with the truth of the Church, which is the body of Christ.
     
  10. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    There’s a problem here. The apostolic teachings are, for all intents and purposes, the word of God, since the apostles are imbued with the authority to speak for God. But you’re conflating “word of God” with “the words of the Bible.” And that’s where you’re going off the rails. The Apostles’ teaching isn’t “teachings of men,” in the sense that Jesus means it here. You see, the apostles carry more authority than Judaic teachers or lawgivers. You’re superimposing the spiritual models of one system over those of another system. it doesn’t work that way.

    For Jesus to rail against the Pharisees for lifting their own law over that which is recognized by the Judaic tradition as “the word of God” is not the same thing as you calling the apostolic teaching “the doctrines of men.” Because it’s NOT “doctrines of men.” It’s the teaching of the Church, which is the Body of Christ.
     
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  11. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    That's a good point. Even Paul says the apostles have more authority than prophets.

    1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
     
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  12. rational experiences

    rational experiences Active Member

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    Why does a male say to his self, that his human applied studies 7 days a week somehow is not right...when he applied it as a human, for human reasons?

    The answer would be that science is trying to rationalize information for a machine...which is not owner of 7 days a week.

    Natural humans infer and apply the theme 7 days a week because our human brother the so called living intelligence told us to.
     
  13. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    All you have provided here is no because you say so. Yet you have been provided the Apostlolic teachings through the Word of God yet you deny them. God's Word according to the scriptures will indeed be our judge as it is written JOHN 12:47-48 [47], And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.[48], HE THAT REJECTS ME, AND RECEIVES NOT MY WORDS, HAS ONE THAT JUDGES HIM: THE WORD THAT I HAVE SPOKEN, THE SAME SHALL JUDGE HIM IN THE LAST DAY. Seems the Apostolic teachings disagree with you Does this not worry you? According to the scriptures it should IMO. :)
     
  14. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense. The Words of the bible provides us with the Word of God and the very Words of JESUS and the Apostolic teachings. It is you who is conflating "the Word of God". You claim you follow Apostolic teachings, yet it is the Word of God that provide us with the Apostolic teachings of JESUS who they believed and followed. Now you have been provided with the very words of JESUS and the Apostles and you choose to simply ignore them as if they do not exist in order to follow man made traditions and teachings that are not biblical (Apostolic teachings). Matthew 15:3-9 is a warning from the very words of JESUS that says if we choose to follow the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God then we are not following God. I know who I believe and follow my friend and it is not you. :)
     
    #914 3rdAngel, Jan 21, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
  15. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    We are warned in the last days that there will be many false teachers our only guide is the Word of God *2 TIMOTHY 3:16. According to the scriptures I believe, if we ignore God's Word give to us through the Apostolic teachings and follow the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God we are not following God *MATTHEW 15:3-9 but heaping to ourselves teachers haveing itching ears according to the scriptures *2 TIMOTHY 4:3 which is foretold in the scriptures. So the question remains; how do we know if what we believe and follow is from God or not from God? What do you think the meaning of 1 JOHN 2:3-4; ISAIAH 8:20 means in your view?
     
    #915 3rdAngel, Jan 21, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
  16. rational experiences

    rational experiences Active Member

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    Conscious....to realize all creation is natural.

    Con of science...to believe that you were given permission to change it.
     
  17. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    The scriptures are the text book and the Teacher is the holy Spirit. You wouldn't want to just hand students a textbook and then expect them to learn as well as they could if they had a proper teacher to explain it. So we won't learn the scriptures so well alone; as when the holy Spirit is our Guide.

    This is why Jesus said "I will not leave you comfortless; I will come to you" and the fact that the holy Spirit is the true Guide is seen in what He said. "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:"

    And even Jesus' disciples even though they had been with Him about 3 years learning still; He commanded them to wait in Jerusalem until they were endowed with power from on high. Because without the holy Spirit not even they were ready for the ministration of the new Testament.

    So He said to them:
    John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

    Because He is our Teacher and that's why He gives us His Spirit:

    Luke 24:45
    Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

    John 14:24-28
    24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. 25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. 28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

    Acts 2:38
    Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    It all begins there in Acts 2:38. That's where the commandments of God begin.

    Isaiah 8:20 was said in the old Testament. Which is fulfilled in Christ. But it's still valid in this sense. If they say anything contrary to the Law or testimony; then they're liars. Because nothing is true that contradicts the Word of God.

    1 John 3:22-24
    22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
    23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
    24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
     
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  18. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, your making an argument no one is making as we both agree this is the new covenant promise. Without God's Spirit no one can understand God's Word *HEBREWS 8:11; JOHN 14:26; JOHN 16:13; JOHN 17:17: JOHN 7:17. These promises however are conditonal and only given to those who believe and follow what God's Word says *JOHN 8:31-36. It is only those who hear God's Word and follow it that are God's sheep (disciples) *JOHN 10:26:27. According to the scriptures, those who do not hear (believe) and follow God's Word are not his sheep (disciples) *JOHN 10:26. So as I posted earlier, how do we know that we know him?

    1 JOHN 2:3-4 [3], And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [4], He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    God's Spirit only works through the Word of God not outside the Word of God as it is the Spirit of the Word *JOHN 6:63. Those who claim to know God but do not follow what God's Word says are liars and the truth is not in them. It is a simple test to know if someone is following Gods' Word or not and if someone has the truth of God's Word or not. What do you think?
     
    #918 3rdAngel, Jan 21, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
  19. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Seems the quote says that we won't be judged... and goes against what you've been saying all along.

    Because it's common knowledge. One doesn't have to provide "references" that the sun does, indeed rise in the east.

    The apostolic teachings, though, go beyond the canon texts.
     
  20. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    You haven't digested a word I've written. So be it. Wallow in your heresy if you feel you must, but don't expect the rest of us to buy into that lie.
     
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