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Featured COL 2:16 And The Sabbath - Are You Being Told The Truth?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by 3rdAngel, Nov 1, 2019.

  1. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Ingido does not believe in JESUS or the new covenant. He only believes in the old covenant and Judaism.
     
  2. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    If the commandments were only for Israel, Why would Jesus tell his followers to "keep the commandments"? Perhaps the "new covanent" extends the same rights and responsibilities to the non-Jews that the "old covanet" gave to the Jews?[/QUOTE]
    Who was Jesus speaking to? Jews. If you believe the gospel accounts, he came for "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (sinful Jews).

    If the New Covenant responsibilities extends the same rights and responsibilities to non-Jews as the original covenant gave to Jews, then I would expect to see non-Jews being concerned about such things as making sure their wool suits did not have linen thread, their beef was kosher (properly slaughtered, bled, and salted -- there is certification for this), not driving their cars on Shabbat (kindling a flame with combustible engines), etc.
     
  3. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Actually, I went back and read it a second time. The only thing I had not answered was a point I felt did not merit an answer. The second time through, I answered that point as well. So there you go. The totality of 612 has been answered. Which you would have noticed if you had been paying attention. Now please drop the 612 stuff. It is not a trump point for you.

    This is simply utterly irrelevant. It does not prove your point. As I have said many times, the blessing of the day does not mean that an obligation was given to treat it as sacred.

    You have yet to show where any non-Jew was given such a command or is shown keeping the Shabbat. That is what you need to prove your point. And you simply don't have it. Period.
    shows why it is given.

    In this case it is appropriate. You are arguing that just being of the silence doesn't mean that God followers didn't keep it. Well you can say the same thing about keeping kosher, or separating wool from linen, or abstaining from sex during menstruation...
    [/QUOTE]
     
  4. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    No you didn't answer the content of post # 612 linked at all you simply hand waived it and ignored it and did not answer it . I asked you politely in the previous posts (twice now and this is the third time) to send me the link to the post showing how you answered it. You did not post any link accept to repeat yourself again saying answered it and some sections did not warrant an answer. All I see is you hand waiving the scriptures in post # 612 linked that show why you are in error, with you unwilling to address this post and the scripture proofs provided. As I posted in the previous posts, you do not have to answer or address post # 612 linked if you do not want to just say so. Maybe you can pray about it more at home.
    Your response...
    Nice hand waiving. As posted earlier to you Indigo, you do not have to address my posts if you do not want to. No one is forcing you to. This only shows you have no response to something that is very relevant. Having NO LAW AND NO SIN when the SABBATH was made for all mankind *GENESIS 2:1-3 "BERORE" the fall of mankind, "BEFORE" there was any ISRAEL or JEW is very relavant as it shows that that SABBATH was never meant for the JEWS but for "ALL MANKIND". I am sure you understand this point and that is why your simply trying to hand waive it and not address it because it shows why your whole premise and argument is in error.
    You should not judge someone before asking them. I do not eat meat with the blood in it, or have sex during womans menstruation. I am not aware of any of my clothes having wool and linen. I see this is but a distraction to our conversation to you avoiding answering the scriptures provided in post # 612 linked that show why you are in error.

    May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.
     
    #624 3rdAngel, Dec 15, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2019
  5. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    I just don't think I should have to be the one to provide the link. Why cant you go back and look? I did my job, which was to reply. You weren't paying attention. And now you want me to do your work and make it easy for you. That's laziness. Anyhow, just to put this to rest, here are the posts:

    COL 2:16 And The Sabbath - Are You Being Told The Truth?

    COL 2:16 And The Sabbath - Are You Being Told The Truth?
     
  6. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Except that when I choose not to, since they don't merit an answer, you get all bent out of shape and nag me to answer (as with post 612). Furthermore, you assume that I am wrong about it being irrelevant, and that I have not answered "because I have no answer," and that you have therefore snagged a point. Ridiculous!!!

    This opens up a new topic, but I find this utterly fascinating. So you are saying you don't just obey the 10 commandments, but the entire 613 (or at least those that you can, obviously there is no temple). May I ask a few things? I'm genuinely curious.

    With your meat, do you make sure it is slaughtered the kosher way? And do you make sure it is salted to remove additional blood? Jews that are kosher observant take care of this by buying certified kosher meat. Just wondering how you handle this.

    The most common problem with mixing wool and linen is the linen threads on wool suits, because the manufacturer will advertise the suit as 100% wool. You have to go out of your way to find a dealer that specializes in suits that are truly all wool. Just thought I'd give you a head's up, since this seems to be important to you.

    For Shabbat, how do you determine what is work and what is not? For orthodox and conservative Jews, we see that the work on the Tabernacle stopped on Shabbos, so we abstain from all the labors used to build the Tabernacle from start to finish -- everything from writing to carrying (outside the home) to planting the seeds that would ultimately become the shew bread. There are 39 categories. How do you figure it out?
     
  7. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    ZZZzz ...Look are you serious in having a discussion Indigo? There is nothing in any of those links that addresses the content in post # 612 linked. You simply quoted from post 612 without addressing any of the content and started talking about something unrelated to it. This fact was brought up to you in my very next post in post # 615 linked. Please be honest here. You have not addressed anything in post 612 you simply ignored it as you are unable to address the content as you know I am sharing the truth of God's Word.
     
  8. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    You just don't like my answer.
     
  9. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Not really. I am only honing in that you do not have an answer for the points being made that show why you are in error and the only way you can try to get around this fact is to avoid answering the scriptures that have been brought up to you that you simply choose to ignore because they show why you are in error. This only shows you have no response to something that is very relevant. Having NO LAW AND NO SIN when the SABBATH was made for all mankind *GENESIS 2:1-3 "BERORE" the fall of mankind, "BEFORE" there was any ISRAEL or JEW is very relavant as it shows that that SABBATH was never meant for the JEWS alone but for "ALL MANKIND". I am sure you understand this point and that is why your simply trying to hand waive it and not address it because it shows why your whole premise and argument is in error.

    I can see you do not wish to answer this post as your only seeking to change the subject matter now and as I posted earlier, you do not have to if you do not want to. I hope you can at least pray about it.

    May you receive God's Word and be blessed. Ignoring it does not make it disappear.
     
    #629 3rdAngel, Dec 15, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2019
  10. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Because you have not provided an answer. You simply hand waived the post and scriptures away and ignored it as if those scriptures did not exist because they show why you are in error.
     
    #630 3rdAngel, Dec 15, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2019
  11. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Your new topic (hand waived the old)... the new covenant shows that many of the 613 laws in the Mosaic book of the old covenant for remission of sins are shadow laws pointing to and having their fulfillment in the Messiah and God's plan of salvation for mankind in the new covenant. It is the reason you no longer have a temple and do animal sacrifices. We do not follow man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God but follow God's Word through the scriptures. Everything in the new testament scriptures comes from the old testament scriptures. Would you be interested in seeing how the coming of the Messiah was written in the Torah and the Prophets and their fulfillment in the new covenant *JEREMIAH 31:31-34?
     
  12. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Oh my gosh!!!! What am I supposed to say? You aren't listening! I've already replied, and thrashed your argument. You can hide your head in the sand if you want, but everyone else can see that you've lost this one.

    Again, you yourself even admit that the Genesis verses do not include a command for anyone to observe the Sabbath. Nor is there on given later. Not until God gives it to Israel (alone) is there any command.

    And that sums up what the Torah says.

    You can try all you like, but you can't change your Bible or make it say more than what it says.

    Discussion over.
     
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  13. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    I listened to everything you have had to say. Also I have seen everything you have not said and your claims to addressing the content in post # 615 linked which has no truth in it. I challenge you if you believe this is not true, show me how you have addressed it? If you cannot why are you making claims that have no truth in them? How is the Sabbath only made for ISRAEL when there was NO ISRAEL when the SABBATH was made for all mankind at creation when mankind was in perfect harmony with God and when there was no law because there was no sin? All I hear from you is silence and you claim you have answered this? As I posted earlier be honest and stop your hand waiving. You do not have to address the content or the scriptures in the posts provided if you do not want to no one is forcing you to.

    Rubbish! This is only more evidence that you are not reading the content of the posts provided to you and are simply hand waiving. Your argument is an argument in silence. For example, where is the scripture that says God's people did not know God's Word or his laws before Sinia? You have no scirpture to support that view do you? Yet I believe I can show you the scriptures that before the written Word of God there was the spoken Word of God and God's people have always had God's laws after the fall before Mt Sinai by the spoken Word of God.

    GENESIS tells us that before the fall (sin) mankind was made on the 6th day of the creation week and God made the Sabbath, day and set it apart and blessed it and made it a Holy day of rest on the 7th day of creation week for all mankind as demonstrated in GENESIS 2:1-3 and EXODUS 20:8-11 before sin and given to all mankind in Adam and Eve when there was no law, no Jew and no Israel because there was no sin when God blessed the seventh day and made it a Holy day *GENESIS 2:1-3 and God's 4th commandment in EXODUS 20:8-1 only shows why it is given and why your claims are in error and why you will not address this point.

    As posted earlier you have yet to address post # 612 and you do not have to if you do not want to, just say so. I think you know deep down inside I am telling you the truth and that I have only provided you with God's Word that are not my words but God's. You have only been denying God's Word with your own words which are not God's. It seems you do not believe the scriptures in the posts that have only been sent in love and as a help to you.

    You have only been provided God's Word that shows why you are in error. As I posted earlier you do not have to address the scriptures if you do not wish to. Perhaps you can pray about it instead. Running away from the scriptures do not make them disappear. Thanks for sharing :)
     
    #633 3rdAngel, Dec 16, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2019
  14. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    Ever hear the saying "ignorance of the law is no exception"? If the governing body of a city passes a new law, that law applies to everyone in that city. A person cannot say they did not see or read the law and therefore are exempt. If God made a law and gave it to the Israelites, that does not mean that others are exempt. God is very fair and would not make laws that only apply tp some people and not others. God blessed the seventh day at creation and made it holy. Man cannot change that. Man can ignore it but it is still God's holy day.
     
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  15. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Yep good point LWS. It matches with the scripture...

    Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law

    God bless
     
  16. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    But these 613 laws were given ONLY to the Israelites. How many times does it read, "And the LORD said to Moses, Speak to the Children of Israel." Not to the world. Not to the Nations. To the Children of Israel. Who was there to receive the ten commandments? Israel. Those born, and the mixed multitude which were adopted in. Not non-Jews.

    As I've reminded the forum many times, Deuteronomy states that the reason for keeping the Shabbat is for Israel to remember being delivered from Egypt. If your ancestors weren't delivered from Egypt, there is no reason for you to observe the Shabbat.
     
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  17. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    According to God's Word, the name ISRAEL was only a name given by God AFTER THE FALL of mankind (Adam and Eve) to all those who believed and followed God's Word. It was part of the promise of God to Abraham that his descendance would be as the sand of the sea or stars of heaven…

    GENESIS 22:15-18 [15], And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, [16], And said, By myself have I sworn, says the LORD, for because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son: [17], That in blessing I will bless you, and in multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies; [18], And in your descendants shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because you have obeyed my voice.

    Jacob a descendant of Abraham being 2nd born received the birth right from Esau...

    GENESIS 25:31 [31], And Jacob said, Sell me this day your birthright. [32], And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point of death: and what profit shall this birthright be to me? [33], And Jacob said, swear to me this day; and he swore unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob. [34], Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentils; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus, Esau despised his birthright.

    God’s promise to Abraham was to be fulfilled through Abrahams seed (descendence) through Jacob who wrestled with God in prayer that God would deliver him and save him from the wrath of Esua because he stole his birth right and blessings from Isaac...

    GENESIS 32:11-12 [11], Deliver me, I pray you, from the hand of my brother, from the hand of Esau: for I fear him, lest he come and smite me, and the mother with the children. [12], And you said, I will surely do you good, and make your descendants as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude.

    After Jacob wrestles with God in prayer, God changes Jacobs name to ISRAEL...

    GENESIS 32:24-28 [24], And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. [25], And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. [26], And he said, let me go, for the day breaks. And he said, I will not let you go, except you bless me. [27], And he said unto him, what is your name? And he said, Jacob. [28], And he said, Your name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince have you power with God and with men, and have prevailed.

    The name "Israel" is only a name given by God himself to represent his people and those who believe and follow His Word. The origin of the name "Israel" come from Genesis 32:28 where Jacob wrestled with the Angel and prevailed ... [28], And he said, Your name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince have you power with God and with men, and have prevailed. The meaning of Israel in connection with all the promises listed so far in the scriptures provided is his posterity will rule as God (ישׂראל; H3478; yiśrâ'êl; From H8280 and H410; he will rule as God ; Jisrael, a symbolical name of Jacob; also (typically) of his posterity: - Israel).

    Jacob had 12 sons representing the 12 tribes of Israel. ISRAEL (God’s new name given to Jacob) had 12 sons which make up the 12 tribes of ISRAEL.

    GENESIS 35:22-26 [22], ... Now the sons of Jacob were twelve: [23], The sons of Leah; Reuben, Jacob's firstborn, and Simeon, and Levi, and Judah, and Issachar, and Zebulun: [24], The sons of Rachel; Joseph, and Benjamin: [25], And the sons of Bilhah, Rachel's handmaid; Dan, and Naphtali: [26], And the sons of Zilpah, Leah's handmaid; Gad, and Asher: these are the sons of Jacob, who were born to him in Paddanaram.

    God’s promise of the NEW COVENANT is to ISRAEL…

    JEREMIAH 31:31-34 [31], Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [32], Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; my covenant which they broke, although I was a husband unto them, says the LORD: [33], But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34], And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    God's Israel in the NEW COVENANT is to all those who believe and follow God's Word

    According to the torah and the new covenant scriptures the Messiah as the "son of man" also represents God's true ISRAEL as an individual as it was applied to Jacob and as to those who also believe and follow God's Word (his offspring). The Messiah (Jesus Christ) and his followers are God's true Israel, the anti-type, the Israel that is not the type as Jacob was or the nation of Israel was in the flesh.

    Jesus is Israel (Matthew 2:13-15; Hosea 11:1; as are his disciples; Hebrews 2:13; Isaiah 8:16,18; John 13:33), the true "overcomer" (John 16:33; Revelation 3:21), the real "Prince" with God (Isaiah 9:6; Daniel 8:11,25, 9:25, 10:13,21, 11:22, 12:1; Acts 3:15, 5:31; Revelation 1:5), being Lord over His own house, whose house are we (Psalms 98:3; Hebrews 3:6; Jeremiah 31:33), who himself is the "elect" (Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18; 1 Peter 2:6) of the Father, in whom all the promises of God find their realization (2 Corinthians 1:20). The promises made by God were all based upon condition (Exodus 19). Matthew 2:13-15; Hosea 11:1; Jeremiah 31:33; Romans 9:6-8; Hebrews 2:13; Isaish 8:16,18; John 13:33, 16:33, 17:12, 18:9, 21:5; 1 Corinthians 15:46; 2 Corinthians 1:20; Galatians 6:16; Hebrews 3:6, 8:8,10; Revelation 3:21

    'Israel' "after the flesh", as a 'nation', is left desolate (Matthew 23:38; Luke 13:35), to bear no more fruit ever again (Matthew 21:19), cursed, withered away (Mark 11:21), dried up from the roots (Mark 11:20), "twice dead" (Jude 1:12), and the axe already laid at their root (Matthew 3:10; Luke 3:9), cut down and to be thrown into the fire.

    The New [or Everlasting] Covenant is only made with the spiritual “Israel” (Jesus Christ, the "elect" of the Father and his children; Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18-20), this “Judah” (Revelation 5:5) and His “house” (2 Corinthians 1:20 KJB - For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.; – for Christ Jesus, the true “Israel” is the “elect” of God, and thus all who choose to be in Him; see Isaiah 42:1, 45:4, 65:9 KJB)

    The new testament scriptures portray JESUS as the head and those who believe and follow his Word as the body *Ephesians 1:22; 4:15; 5:23; Colossians 1:18. God's ISRAEL are all those who believe and follow God's Word and not those who are in the flesh who do not believe and follow God's Word because it is written...

    ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

    ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

    God's true ISRAEL is everyone who believes and follows God's Word *John 10:26-27
     
    #637 3rdAngel, Dec 17, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2019
  18. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Your reminding the forum is in error. The reason the Sabbath was given to mankind was because God rested on the seventh day of the creation week. God blessed the seventh day for mankind in Adam and Even and God made the seventh day of the week a Holy day of rest for all mankind. There was no Israel and no JEW when the Sabbath was made for mankind on the seventh day of the creation week *GENESIS 2:1-3.
     
  19. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    I am glad you said "those who were adopted in". God says everyone can become his adopted child. Everyone can be part od God's family - a true "adopted" child of God. It seems the same rules would apply to all of them. Not just those who were born as Jews. Maybe???
     
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  20. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    I summed up my points to end our discussion, and your reponse is to write a two page long essay reiterating all the points that you keep repeating ad nauseum? Please, lets stop this. It's fruitless. I am content to let the readers read both my posts and yours and decide for themselves who has the better arguments.
     
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