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Featured COL 2:16 And The Sabbath - Are You Being Told The Truth?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by 3rdAngel, Nov 1, 2019.

  1. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Hello brother IndigoChild nice to meet you and welcome here :). God is my Saviour what can we do without him? He is our strength and without him all we can do is fail but if he be with us who can stop us?
    I guess brother it may be difficult for us to agree on some things as there are many scriptures in the Torah that were shadows of things to come, I believe are revealed in Christ as the Messiah. Many laws in the torah are prophetic in nature pointing to the Messiah, and God's plan of salvation for mankind in the new covenant foretold in JEREMIAH 31:31-34 and revealed in Christ? Many Jews reject Christ as the Messiah yet it is the very scriptures from the law and the prophets that pointed to JESUS as the promised Messiah revealed in the torah that many reject. Do you know these scriptures brother and are you interested to see the scriptures that pointed to JESUS?

    That being said, you believe as did your fathers that you are God's children because you are the children of the seed of Abraham. Yet the origin of ISRAEL in the torah and new covenant has a different meaning to those who have come out of the shadow laws of the old covenant into the promise of the new.

    There are many similarities in what we believe and many that set us apart. I believe everything we have as a result of the new covenant and new testament scriptures we have today foretold in JEREMIAH 31:31-34 comes from the torah.

    The name of ISRAEL of the old covenant comes from the promise of God to Abraham that his descendance would be as the sand of the sea or stars of heaven…

    GENESIS 22:15-18 [15], And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, [16], And said, By myself have I sworn, says the LORD, for because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son: [17], That in blessing I will bless you, and in multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies; [18], And in your descendants shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because you have obeyed my voice.

    Jacob a descendant of Abraham being 2nd born received the birth right from Esau...

    GENESIS 25:31 [31], And Jacob said, Sell me this day your birthright. [32], And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point of death: and what profit shall this birthright be to me? [33], And Jacob said, swear to me this day; and he swore unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob. [34], Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentils; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus, Esau despised his birthright.

    God’s promise to Abraham was to be fulfilled through Abrahams descendant Jacob

    GENESIS 32:11-12 [11], Deliver me, I pray you, from the hand of my brother, from the hand of Esau: for I fear him, lest he come and smite me, and the mother with the children. [12], And you said, I will surely do you good, and make your descendants as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude.

    God changes Jacobs name to ISRAEL...

    GENESIS 32:24-28 [24], And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. [25], And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. [26], And he said, let me go, for the day breaks. And he said, I will not let you go, except you bless me. [27], And he said unto him, what is your name? And he said, Jacob. [28], And he said, Your name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince have you power with God and with men, and have prevailed.

    The name "Israel" is only a name given by God himself to represent his people who are all those who believe and follow Gods' Word. The origin of the name "Israel" come from Genesis 32:28 where Jacob wrestled with the Angel and prevailed ...for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. Its meaning is his posterity will rule as God. Jacob had 12 sons representing the 12 tribes of Israel.

    ISRAEL (God’s new name given to Jacob) had 12 sons which make up the 12 tribes of ISRAEL

    GENESIS 35:22-26 [22], ... Now the sons of Jacob were twelve: [23], The sons of Leah; Reuben, Jacob's firstborn, and Simeon, and Levi, and Judah, and Issachar, and Zebulun: [24], The sons of Rachel; Joseph, and Benjamin: [25], And the sons of Bilhah, Rachel's handmaid; Dan, and Naphtali: [26], And the sons of Zilpah, Leah's handmaid; Gad, and Asher: these are the sons of Jacob, who were born to him in Paddanaram.

    God’s promise of the NEW COVENANT is to ISRAEL…

    JEREMIAH 31:31-34 [31], Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [32], Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; my covenant which they broke, although I was a husband unto them, says the LORD: [33], But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34], And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    The question though that is worth consideration is what makes someone a true ISRAELITE or JEW according to the scriptures in God's eyes? Are you a true ISRAELITE or JEW if you are only born a JEW, but do not do what God's Word says? Or as the meaning of the name that God gave to Jacob means "an overcomer with God and man; or he shall rule as God" ישׂראל; yiśrâ'êl; are we ISRAELITES if we as the scripture says, wrestle with God and are overcomers with God and man and do what God says?

    Many claim they have Gods salvation because they are JEWS, without doing what God says because they are born of ISRAEL. Do these have God's salvation if they know God's Word and do not do what God says? Or do we have God's salvation by believing and following what God's Word says? Who is of ISRAEL? Who is the overcomer with God and man? Those who believe and follow Gods' Word; or those who do not believe and follow God's Word?

    There is many scriptures I can share here but you do not believe the new covenant scriptures or accept JESUS as the Messiah so for now I will not post these scriptures that show that God's ISRAEL are all those who believe and follow his Word.

    Some more to follow...
     
    #541 3rdAngel, Nov 24, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2019
  2. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    There are many laws in the torah some were only shadows of things to come pointing to the new covenant and the promised Messiah and God's plan of salvation for his people under the new covenant promise written in JEREMIAH 31:31-34 from the Mosaic book of the law *EXODUS 24:7, while God's eternal LAW (10 commandments) which was the work of God alone spoken to God's people and written with the finger of God on two tables of stone *EXODUS 20:1-17; EXODUS 31:18; EXODUS 32:16 give is the KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTEOUSNESS in the new covenant *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172. My understanding of the scriptures is that God's LAW (10 commandments) is the standard of sin and righteousness written in stone by the finger of God. The laws of Moses written by Moses in the book of the covenant *EXODUS 24:7 are the subgroups written around the 10 commandments many of which are the shadow laws that point us to the Messiah and God's plan of salvation for mankind in the new covenant. A question for your consideration dear brother (scripture only please). How many commandments are there in God's 10 commandments written by the finger of God on two tables of stone; 7, 9, 10 or 613? There is no need for us to guess brother as the answer is given to us in God's Word *DEUTERONOMY 10:4; DEUTERONOMY 4:13; EXODUS 34:28.
    My understanding of the scriptures is that there are many of the 603 laws from the MOSAIC book of the old covenant *EXODUS 24:7 that are not universal laws but shadow laws pointing to things to come. Pointing to the MESSIAH and God's plan of salvation in the new covenant for mankind. So no not all laws outside of God's 10 commandments written by MOSES in the MOSAIC BOOK of the law are universal laws. You will not see this though without seeing JESUS as the gift of God's dear son and the lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. The nation of ISRAEL as a whole (although not all) rejected the promise of the coming Messiah foretold in the very torah that was given them as the oracles of God that reveals God's mercy for fallen man and God's plan of salvation in the new covenant *JEREMIAH 31:31-34. I guess this is where we will have a disagreement as to who the Messiah is. If your interested though I am happy to share the scriptures from the torah with you that pointed to JESUS as the coming Messiah just let me know.
    Good question and the answer to that question is it is absolutely universal to all of God's people that believe and follow God's Word (ISRAEL). It is the only one of God's 10 commandments that point to God as the creator of Heaven and Earth. It is a memorial of creation "REMEMBER" the God of creation to God's people to enter into God's rest (the seventh day sabbath). It has it's origin at creation where God rested from the finished work of creation and blessed and set apart the seventh day from all the other days of the week and made the seventh day a Holy day of rest for all mankind *GENESIS 2:1-3 with Adam and Eve being created on the sixth day *GENESIS 1:26-31. Now why is this important you might ask? Well when God created the Sabbath in GENESIS 2:1-3 mankind was in perfect harmony with God. There was no sin. There was no law. There was no JEW and there was no ISRAEL.
    Now keep in mind here before the written word of God given at Mt Sinai there was the "SPOKEN" Word of God. The written word of God was given to God's people because they had been in slavery to the Egyptians for around 400 years and had mostly forgotten God's laws. That being said God's people had always believed and followed God's laws by faith before the written Word of God. As it is written... GENESIS 6:5 Because Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws (תּורה תּרה).

    Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM,
    Strong LAWS - H8451;
    תּורה תּרה; tôrâh tôrâh; to-raw', to-raw'
    From H3384; a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch: - law.

    Abraham kept God's torah which includes God's LAW (10 Commandments) and the sacrificial laws for burnt offerings.

    GENESIS 22:6-8; 13
    [6], And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it on Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
    [7], And Isaac spoke to Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
    [8], And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

    [13], And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

    Elsewhere we read of Joseph and Potifers wife who tried to commit adultery with Joseph..

    GENESIS 39:7-9
    [7], And it came to pass after these things, that his master's wife cast her eyes upon Joseph; and she said, Lie with me.
    [8], But he refused, and said unto his master's wife, Behold, my master wotteth not what is with me in the house, and he hath committed all that he hath to my hand;
    [9], There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back anything from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?

    If Joseph did NOT know God’s LAW then how did he know he was SINNING against God by committing adultery with Potiphar’s wife?

    The point being made here of course is that before the written word of God there was the Spoken Word of God which was given to Abrahams seed of who the promise was made and the origin of the name of ISRAEL given by God to Jacob and his seed who is from Abrahams seed. Who did not come out of the land of Egypt so the claim to God's 10 commandments only being to ISRAEL is not relavant if God's people before ISRAEL already had them by the Spoken Word of God as demonstrated through the scriptures above.

    Sin is breaking any one of God's 10 comandments as it is God's very law that give us the knowledge of what sin is what broken. Unrepentant sin will keep all those who practice it out of God's kingdom.

    Hope this helps explain my thinking and thanks for sharing with us brother.
     
    #542 3rdAngel, Nov 24, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2019
  3. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    3rdAngel, you're beginning to sound like you've been brainwashed!

    Abraham did not have knowledge of the 10 Commandments! They were FIRST disclosed to Moses. The specific commandments (torah) given to Abraham are recorded in the book of Genesis, and are not part of the Mosaic covenant.

    Moses says, quite explicitly, in Deuteronomy 5:3,'The LORD made not this covenant [the Mosaic] with our fathers' [which includes Abraham!]

    How can you keep ignoring this passage?
     
    #543 Redemptionsong, Nov 24, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2019
  4. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    I hope so brother. JESUS cleansed me and washed me in his own blood and died for me sins so that I can walk in newness of life through his Spirit. I was dead in tresspasses and sins and now he bids me rise from the dead and speak his Words. You have only been provided God's Word which is not my words but God's Word. In response you provide your words which are not God's Word but your words that deny God's Word so your argument brother is with God not me.

    Once again these are your words that are not God's Word. According to God's Word before the written word of God, given to ISRAEL there was the "Spoken Word of God" given to God's people and God's people did indeed walk with God and keep his laws according to the written Word of God (not mine) that you deny. These scriptures are not mine and were provided to someone earlier..

    As it is written... GENESIS 6:5 Because Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws (תּורה תּרה).

    Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM,
    Strong LAWS - H8451;
    תּורה תּרה; tôrâh tôrâh; to-raw', to-raw'
    From H3384; a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch: - law.

    Abraham kept God's torah which includes God's LAW (10 Commandments) and the sacrificial laws for burnt offerings.

    GENESIS 22:6-8; 13
    [6], And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it on Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
    [7], And Isaac spoke to Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
    [8], And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

    [13], And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

    Elsewhere we read of Joseph and Potifers wife who tried to commit adultery with Joseph..

    GENESIS 39:7-9
    [7], And it came to pass after these things, that his master's wife cast her eyes upon Joseph; and she said, Lie with me.
    [8], But he refused, and said unto his master's wife, Behold, my master wotteth not what is with me in the house, and he hath committed all that he hath to my hand;
    [9], There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back anything from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?

    If Joseph did NOT know God’s LAW then how did he know he was SINNING against God by committing adultery with Potiphar’s wife?

    The point being made here of course is that before the written word of God there was the Spoken Word of God which was given to Abrahams seed of who the promise was made and the origin of the name of ISRAEL given by God to Jacob and his seed who is from Abrahams seed. Who did not come out of the land of Egypt so the claim to God's 10 commandments only being to ISRAEL is not relavant if God's people before ISRAEL already had them by the Spoken Word of God as demonstrated through the scriptures above.

    Sin is breaking any one of God's 10 comandments as it is God's very law that give us the knowledge of what sin is what broken. Unrepentant sin will keep all those who practice it out of God's kingdom.

    The scripture you provide in Deuteronomy 5:3 only supports what is being shared with you it does not disagree with what is being shared with you. As the MOSAIC covenant includes much more than was made with the fathers. In the MOSAIC covenant we have all the laws of the Sanctuary and sin offerings and the ceremonial laws in ordinances, the Levitical Priesthood, the commands to go out and disposses the inhabbitants of the land, the laws for the annual feastivals for Iseael, as well as the civil and health/hygeine laws of Israel. This covenant was indeed not the same as what was made with the fathers. This covenant was made to the nation of Israel.

    Hope this helps
     
    #544 3rdAngel, Nov 24, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2019
  5. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Allow me to quote a little bit from Alfred Edersheim, as it may help us to view this issue with greater clarity.

    He writes, 'Unlike the others of the Ten Commandments, the Sabbath Law has in it two elements: the moral and the ceremonial; the eternal, and that which is subject to time and place; the inward and spiritual, and the outward (the one as the mode of realising the other). In their distinction and separation lies the difficulty of the subject. In its spiritual and eternal element, the Sabbath Law embodied the two thoughts of rest for worship, and worship which pointed to rest. The keeping of the seventh day, and the Jewish mode of its observance, were the temporal and outward form in which these eternal principles were presented. Even Rabbinism, in some measure, perceived this. It was a principle, that danger to life superseded the Sabbath law, and, indeed, all other obligations....In other words, the outward mode of observance was subordinate to the object of the observance.'

    Do you agree with Edersheim's analysis?
     
  6. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    No I do not agree with that statement brother. That is simply a confused man-made interpretation of God's Word that is full of error by someone that does not know the difference between ceremonial and moral laws of the old and new covenants. You will not find the truth of God's Word brother by seeking it from man made teachings outside of God's Word. We need to seek JESUS for God's truth through the promise of God's Spirit through his Word *Hebrews 8:11; John 14:26; John 16:13. The wisdom of this world is foolishness with God.
     
    #546 3rdAngel, Nov 24, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2019
  7. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    3rdAngel, You claim that Edersheim's understanding is 'full of error'. Maybe you can explain just where, and how, he is mistaken.
     
  8. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Sure no problem...
    The premise of what the writer is saying here is that the Sabbath is a shadow ceremonial law that pointed to JESUS and is fulfilled in Chrsit therefore done away with in Christ and was only ever temporary. Now let's look at the scriptures and see why this cannot be true....

    The Sabbath as well as all the 10 Commandments are all moral laws. The first 4 commandments being our duty of love to God and the second six are our duty of love to our neighbore. This is outlined by JESUS in Matthew 22:36-40 when he was quoting from Leviticus 19:18 and Deuteronomy 6:5.

    A moral law and a moral law is defined as...

    MOR'AL, adjective [Latin moralis, from mos, moris, manner.] Relating to the practice, manners or conduct of men as social beings in relation to each other, and with reference to right and wrong. The word moral is applicable to actions that are good or evil, virtuous or vicious, and has reference to the law of God as the standard by which their character is to be determined. The word however may be applied to actions which affect only, or primarily and principally, a person's own happiness. Moral law, the law of God which prescribes the moral or social duties, and prohibits the transgression of them. (Summarised from Webster's Dictionary 1828)

    The Sabbath is also a "memorial law" or a law of remeberance which is defined as "a preservation of memory" and says...

    EXODUS 20:8-11 [8], REMEMBER THE SABBATH DAY, TO KEEP IT HOLY [Made Holy at creation GENESIS 2:3]. [9], Six days shall you labor, and do all your work: [10], But THE SEVENTH DAY [ Genesis 2:1-3] IS THE SABBATH OF THE LORD YOUR GOD : in it you shall not do any work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger that is within your gates: [WHY?] [11], FOR IN SIX DAYS THE LORD MADE HEAVEN AND EARTH, THE SEA, AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM IS, AND RESTED THE SEVENTH DAY; WHEREFORE THE LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH DAY AND MADE IT HOLY. [Refering to GENESIS 2:1-3]

    Note that v11 points back to the origin of God's 4th Commandment in GENESIS 2:1-3 as the "seventh day" of the creation week as defines God as the creator of Heaven and Earth. We will get back to this point shortly.

    So God's 4th commandment is both a "memorial law" to preserve memory of God as the creator of heaven and earth and a moral law as our duty of love to God to remember God as the creator of heaven and earth.


    Now the meaning of a CEREMONIAL LAW in God's Word is a law or ordinance an act or series of acts performed in some regular way according to fixed rules especially as part of a social or religious event (Webster's Dictionary 1828).

    The ceremonial or provisional law was added because of the transgression of the moral law. The ceremonial law consisted of ordinances, ceremonies and sacrifices in the sanctuary system and the Levitical priesthood for remission of sins and pointed to the future redemption through the Messiah (Jesus Christ). This law typified the mysteries contained in the plan of redemption in Jesus and the new covenant.

    For example in the celebration of the annual Passover feast and the first fruit offering required to the Jewish people, God gave specifications to be observed that clearly represented Christ. The Bible says "Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning. The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God" (Exodus 34:25-26). The apostle Paul says: "Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us" (1 Corinthians 5:7). Concerning the first fruit offering he later writes: "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming" (1 Corinthians 15:20-23).

    After Christ’s death, the ceremonial law is no longer to be observed. Therefore "blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ" (Colossians 2:14-17).

    The laws consisting in ordinances, typifying Christ’s death was the one nailed on the cross, "having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace" (Ephesians 2:15). "For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect" (Hebrews 10:1).

    God wants to make a new covenant with His children, and that covenant consists on writing the moral law in their minds and hearts. "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. . . . For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people" (Hebrews 8:8,10).

    Ok let's get back to what why have shown earlier in showing through the scriptures that God's 4th commandment *EXODUS 20:8-11 is both a "moral" (duty of love to God) and a "memorial" law that v11 points back to the origin of God's 4th Commandment at creation in GENESIS 2:1-3 as the "seventh day" of the creation week as defines God as the creator of Heaven and Earth and let's ask the question..

    ..............

    Q. Now, why is the premise of Alfred Edersheim that the Sabbath of God's 4th commandment is a shadow ceremonial law that pointed to JESUS and is fulfilled and done away in Christ not true?

    A. Remember that the reason for God's 4th commandment in v11 is stated For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the SEVENTH DAY: wherefore the LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH, and HALLOWED IT which points back to the origin of the 4th commandment on the "seventh day" of the creation week where God blessed the seventh day because God rested from his finished work of creation and made it a holy day for mankind as a memorial of creation *EXODUS 20:8-11. This commandment has it's origin in GENESIS...

    GENESIS 2:1-3 [1], Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
    [2], And ON THE SEVENTH DAY God ended his work which he had made; and HE RESTED [שׁבת; shâbath H7673; KEEP SABBATH] on the SEVENTH DAY from all his work which he had made. [3], And GOD BLESSED THE SEVENTH DAY AND MADE IT HOLY: BECAUSE THAT IN IT HE HAD RESTED [שׁבת; shâbath H7673; Keep Sabbath] from all his work which God created and made.

    The origin of God's 4th commandment is in creation...

    EXODUS 20:8-11 [8], REMEMBER THE SABBATH DAY, TO KEEP IT HOLY [Made Holy at creation GENESIS 2:3]. [9], Six days shall you labor, and do all your work: [10], But THE SEVENTH DAY [ Genesis 2:1-3] IS THE SABBATH OF THE LORD YOUR GOD : in it you shall not do any work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger that is within your gates: [WHY?] [11], FOR IN SIX DAYS THE LORD MADE HEAVEN AND EARTH, THE SEA, AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM IS, AND RESTED THE SEVENTH DAY; WHEREFORE THE LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH DAY AND MADE IT HOLY. [Refering to GENESIS 2:1-3]

    The reason why it is impossible for the Sabbath to be a shadow ceremonial law is because JESUS says that the Sabbath was made for all mankind *Mark 2:27 and it was made on the seventh day of the creation week *GENESIS 2:1-3 when there was no sin when mankind walked in perfect harmony with God and there was no laws because there was no sin. The Sabbath was made for mankind when there was NO SIN, NO LAW, NO MOSES, NO JEW and NO ISRAEL. This alone proves why your writer is in error. If the Sabbath was made for mankind before sin and before laws were required for sin than how can God's 4th commandment be a ceremonial shadow law which were only given AFTER THE FALL (SIN)? It is impossible!

    Then it is writtten...

    ISAIAH 66:22-23 [
    22], For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, said the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. [23], And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, said the LORD.

    HEBREWS 4:9 [9] SO THEN IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH

    May you receive Gods' Word and be blessed.
     
    #548 3rdAngel, Nov 25, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
  9. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Here we will have to disagree quite strongly, although I think we can do so agreeably :). I see very, very few verses that speak of the future and even fewer that speak of the messiah. The emphasis of the Tanakh is on obeying God in the present. These verses are incredibly obvious -- everyone agrees about them.

    This plethora of verses you are referring to are controversial. Even believers in Jesus can't agree on them. But at any rate, you all see them there in the Tanakh only because you desire them to be there so badly.

    Have you ever noticed how Roman Catholics see the Virgin Mary everywhere? Formations on trees, shadows on walls, patterns in floor tiles, even the burn patterns on pieces of toast. Why do they see these things? Because they are constantly thinking of the Virgin Mary and they EXPECT to see her everywhere.

    In the same way, believers in Jesus are consumed in their minds with Jesus. They expect to see Jesus everywhere, and so they do. Especially in the Bible, even in the Tanakh, where he is not. It simply the psychology of desire.

    It could have something to do with God himself saying to us (and not to any other nation, "I will take you to be my people, and I will be your God." Exodus 6:7

    At this point in your post, you take a great deal of time to explain what I ALREADY said to you about the meaning and origin of the name of Jacob, ISRAEL, and how it means to contend with God. And btw it does NOT mean to "overcome" God. Nothing in Isra-El means that. It is true that in our stories of arguing with God, God becomes pursuaded. But that does not seem to be the point of the name Israel.

    You also list many of Abraham's blessings with the covenant, ie having many descendants. But oddly, YOU FAIL TO MENTION THE MAIN ONE, which is the promised land of Canaan. This promise is "everlasting" and the covenant continues through Isaac and Israel, and is unconditional.

    Later on, at Sinai, conditional blessings are given, dependent upon our obedience, such as prosperity. In the everlasting unconditional covenant, the land belongs to us regardless of whether we are obedient or not. At Sinai, it is spelled out that actually living on the land is conditional upon obedience. Thus there may be times when, because of disobedience we do not live on the land -- however, even during those times the land still belongs to us unconditionally.


    Notice the details of this covenant. They simply are not true at this time. In other words it is obvious that the New Covenant has not come into being -- YET.
    1. The law is not yet written on our hearts -- we must be taught it to know right from wrong. Whether its Jews or Christians or other faiths, morals and ethics are TAUGHT, especially to children. Children, if left to themselves, will lie, cheat, steal, use force, be cruel, etc. They must learn to overcome their inclination to evil.
    2. Not everyone knows God. Atheists and agnostics still exist. Enough said.

    Jews don't go around saying we have salvation. Salvation is the concern of Christians. Jews, or at least religious Jews, ask ourselves if we are faithfully obeying HaShem, if we are observing our covenant. It seems to me that you haven't actually talked to Jews, since you have misconceptions about us.

    Part of being an observant Jew is participating in prayers and studying Torah (and for many, the Talmud). Grounding in the basic 613 laws is a must.

    So to sum things up, Israel are those who through maternal lineage are descended from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, OR who are now adopted into the People through the official conversion process, as Ruth did in the Tanakh--remember it wasn't just a religious conversion on her part, she also said, "Your people shall be my people."

    As a tribal people we have a covenant, which is at times referred to as a religion, Judaism. Some of the Children of Israel follow it. Some of the Children of Israel do not, just as in the stories in the Tanakh.

    God promises that he will discipline us if we stray, but he also promises that our covenant is everlasting, and that he will always be our God, and that in the end, he will restore us. Remember the example of Hosea, and how he was faithful to his prostitute wife? This was the metaphor for how HaShem is faithful to Israel even when we are unfaithful to him.

    The theology that you are advancing is known as Replacement Theology -- the idea that the Church now replaces Israel as God's people. It used to be the status quo theology among Jesus believers. However, after the holocaust, the majority of churches abandoned it, because they could see that it was the manure which fertilized anti-Semitism. I suggest you think long and hard about that, maybe do some reading on that connection.[/QUOTE]
     
  10. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    There are absolutely NO laws in the Torah that are ONLY shadows of things to come. Every commandment in the Torah is meant to be OBEYED. There are prophecies of the future, such as Abraham having many descendents, or Moses being followed by a great prophet (Joshua). But these are obvious cases. They are not "shadows."

    There are 10 commandments said to be written by God's own finger (a metaphor since God does not have a body, but the point is that Moses did not right them.) There are 603 more commandments of God that he spoke to Moses and Moses wrote down. I will not call them the laws of Moses, since they do not come from Moses.

    So you are saying that the 10 are universal but the 603 are not? You think the law against incest is not universal? What about loving God with all your heart, soul, and strength? What about loving your neighbor as yourself? All of those are of the 603.

    We reject what is obviously not true. Jesus didn't fulfill messianic prophecy, i.e. he did not usher in an era of world peace, he didn't bring all us Jews back to the land of Israel, he didn't rule Israel from Jerursalem (aka be David).

    Same with the New Covenant. It hasn't yet come to be. Everyone is supposed to have the Law written on their hearts, and obviously they don't. Children naturally lie, cheat, steal, use force, etc., and have to be taught not to. And another thing, not all of us "know God." Atheists and agnostics still exist. So no, the New Covenant is Jeremiah hasn't come to be yet -- it is something for the end of days.



    Look, I don't mind you disagreeing with me. I actually enjoy the back and forth that happens in these forums, so disagree and argue all you want. But do NOT try to evangelize me. It is not welcome. And besides, you would be wasting your time. I realize that Christians have a deep emotional need to "bring Jesus" to others. But this forum is not an appropriate place for it. Indeed it is against the rules of this place for anyone to try to convert another.

    Before Mt Sinai, what existed were the universal laws. These were what Adam, Noah, and Abraham followed. They did not have to keep kosher, or establish a tabernacle, or keep the Shabbat. All those laws which concerned only b'nei Yisrael came later when God spoke to Israel (including when he wrote on the tablets).

    This is just not true and none of what you said proves it. The offerings that Abraham gave could simply have been offerings of worship, or offering seeking blessing (indeed much more likely so).

    The prohibition against adultery doesn't show it either. Heck, eskimos before they ever met europeans had prohibitions against adultery.
     
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  11. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Indeed Indigo we follow a different path so we will not agree but can agree to disagree :).
    I agree with you and the examples you have provided that some people or religions only see what they want to see and close their eyes to what the scriptures teach but this is something we must not necessarily apply always to others but prayerfully ask for God's guidence through His Spirit that it is not us who is closing our eyes and ears to God's Word. As this very conversation is written about the nation of ISRAEL below...

    "His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber. Yes, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter. Come you, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant." *ISAIAH 56:10-12

    "Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
    But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue has muttered perverseness. None calls for justice, nor any pleads for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity. They hatch cockatrice' eggs, and weave the spider's web: he that eats of their eggs dies, and that which is crushed breaks out into a viper. Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands. Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths. The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whoever goes therein shall not know peace. Therefore is judgment far from us, neither does justice overtake us: we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, but we walk in darkness. We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if we had no eyes: we stumble at noon day as in the night; we are in desolate places as dead men.
    " * ISAIAH 58:1-10.

    "Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear you indeed, but understand not; and see you indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed." *ISAIAH 6:8-10

    So brother everything you have spoken about, according to the scriptures (not me) applies directly to the nation of ISRAEL who closed their eyes and ears to believing and following God's Word, braking God's covenant and departing from God closed their eyes and ears to the coming of the very Messiah and God they promised to serve and follow.

    You say you do not see the scriptures that speak of the future or the Messiah? The only why one could do that in my view is to willfilly close their eyes to their existence. Now the scriptures provided below are only provided as evidence to the very scriptures you claim do not exist and are only a few of many....

    Prophecies of the coming Messaiah to Israel fulfilled in JESUS

    1. Messiah would be born of a woman. Genesis 3:15; Matthew 1:20; Galatians 4:4
    2. Messiah would be born in Bethlehem. Micah 5:2; Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-6
    3. Messiah would be born of a virgin. Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:22-23; Luke 1:26-31
    4. Messiah would come from the line of Abraham. Genesis 12:3; Genesis 22:18; Matthew 1:1; Romans 9:5
    5. Messiah would be a descendant of Isaac. Genesis 17:19; Genesis 21:12; Luke 3:34
    6. Messiah would be a descendant of Jacob. Numbers 24:17; Matthew 1:2
    7. Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah. Genesis 49:10; Luke 3:33; Hebrews 7:14
    8. Messiah would be heir to King David's throne. 2 Samuel 7:12-13; Isaiah 9:7; Luke 1:32-33; Romans 1:3
    9. Messiah's throne will be anointed and eternal. Psalm 45:6-7; Daniel 2:44; Luke 1:33; Hebrews 1:8-12
    10. Messiah would be called Immanuel (God with us). Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23
    11. Messiah would spend a season in Egypt. Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:14-15
    12. A massacre of children would happen at Messiah's birthplace. Jeremiah 31:15; Matthew 2:16-18
    13. A messenger would prepare the way for Messiah Isaiah 40:3-5; Luke 3:3-6
    14. Messiah would be rejected by his own people. Psalm 69:8; Isaiah 53:3; John 1:11; John 7:5
    15. Messiah would be a prophet. Deuteronomy 18:15; Acts 3:20-22
    16. Messiah would be preceded by Elijah. Malachi 4:5-6; Matthew 11:13-14
    17. Messiah would be declared the Son of God. Psalm 2:7; Matthew 3:16-17
    18. Messiah would be called a Nazarene. Isaiah 11:1; Matthew 2:23
    19. Messiah would bring light to Galilee. Isaiah 9:1-2; Matthew 4:13-16
    20. Messiah would speak in parables. Psalm 78:2-4; Isaiah 6:9-10; Matthew 13:10-15, 34-35
    21. Messiah would be sent to heal the brokenhearted. Isaiah 61:1-2; Luke 4:18-19
    22. Messiah would be a priest after the order of Melchizedek. Psalm 110:4; Hebrews 5:5-6
    23. Messiah would be called King. Psalm 2:6; Zechariah 9:9; Matthew 27:37; Mark 11:7-11
    24. Messiah would be praised by little children. Psalm 8:2; Matthew 21:16
    25. Messiah would be betrayed. Psalm 41:9; Zechariah 11:12-13; Luke 22:47-48; Matthew 26:14-16
    26. Messiah's price money would be used to buy a potter's field. Zechariah 11:12-13 Matthew 27:9-10
    27. Messiah would be falsely accused. Psalm 35:11; Mark 14:57-58
    28. Messiah would be silent before his accusers. Isaiah 53:7; Mark 15:4-5
    29. Messiah would be spat upon and struck. Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 26:67
    30. Messiah would be hated without cause. Psalm 35:19; Psalm 69:4; John 15:24-25
    31. Messiah would be crucified with criminals. Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38; Mark 15:27-28
    32. Messiah would be given vinegar to drink. Psalm 69:21; Matthew 27:34; John 19:28-30
    33. Messiah's hands and feet would be pierced. Psalm 22:16; Zechariah 12:10; John 20:25-27
    34. Messiah would be mocked and ridiculed. Psalm 22:7-8 Luke 23:35
    35. Soldiers would gamble for Messiah's garments. Psalm 22:18; Luke 23:34; Matthew 27:35-36
    36. Messiah's bones would not be broken. Exodus 12:46; Psalm 34:20; John 19:33-36
    37. Messiah would be forsaken by God. Psalm 22:1; Matthew 27:46
    38. Messiah would pray for his enemies. Psalm 109:4; Luke 23:34
    39. Soldiers would pierce Messiah's side. Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34
    40. Messiah would be buried with the rich. Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60
    41. Messiah would resurrect from the dead. Psalm 16:10; Psalm 49:15; Matthew 28:2-7; Acts 2:22-32
    42. Messiah would ascend to heaven. Psalm 24:7-10; Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51
    43. Messiah would be seated at God's right hand. Psalm 68:18; Psalm 110:1; Mark 16:19; Matthew 22:44
    44. Messiah would be a sacrifice for sin. Isaiah 53:5-12; Romans 5:6-8
    45. Messiah prophecy and timeline fortold while ISRAEL was in captivity for sin. Danial 9:25-27; Mark 1:15

    Historical timlines also verify the fulfillment of many of the scriptures above. Yep hard to see what one does not want to see. Not only did ISRAEL close their eyes and ears to God's Word they also rejected the Messiah and departed from God and were the very one who put him on the tree and killed him. He came unto his own and his own received him not. God knows however brother many did so out of ignorance as did your rulers but those things, which God before had showed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he has so fulfilled. The scriptures (not me) go on to tell us therefore to believe his Word, that our sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord *Acts 3:17-19.
     
    #551 3rdAngel, Nov 26, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2019
  12. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    There are hundreds of death penalty crimes in the OT. What's your point?
     
  13. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    3rdAngel, you accept that all Ten Commandments were laws given to Israel.

    Galatians 3:19. 'Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.'

    If Abraham followed the law (Ten Commandments), then it must have been 'because of transgressions'.

    The problem is, you keep quoting Genesis 26:5 as evidence that Abraham kept the Ten Commandments; but Galatians 3:19 proves that this interpretation is wrong! How can Abraham be both a keeper of God's laws, and a transgressor?

    The promise that was made to Abraham was the promise 'of the Spirit through faith [in Jesus Christ].' (Galatians 3:14)

    Notice that the Holy Spirit is received through faith. It is not received through law.

    Romans 3:21. 'But now the righteousness of God WITHOUT THE LAW is manifested'

    The word 'WITHOUT' in Romans 3:21 is Gk.Choris, and means 'separately', or 'apart from', or 'by itself'. so the scripture is telling us that the Spirit of God, Christ's righteousness in us, is not to be confused with the law. Yet, it's the law that you require when you obligate believers to observe Sabbath from 6pm Friday to 6pm Saturday.
     
    #553 Redemptionsong, Nov 26, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2019
  14. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    I notice you quote a lot of scriptures that seem to have no purpose, no relationship to our discussion at all, and this confuses me.

    For example,above I include your quote of the calling of Isaiah. What can this possibly have to do without our discussion? Israel vascillated, having faithful Kings and unfaithful Kings. The job of the prophets, such as Isaiah, was to dutifully call Israel back to the ways of God when Israel had strayed. Fine. But there is no argument between you and I on this point. So why are you bringing it up? Certainly God did not break his covenant because this. He punished us, but promised us that he would restore us.

    That's rather insulting of you, to accuse us of *willfully* closing our eyes. These are *our* scriptures. No one studies them more than us. Have you ever, ever thought that perhaps *we* are the ones that are correctly interpreting them?

    Let's look at just a few of your basic errors that we have pointed out to Christians over the years, but you all have stubbornly clung to:

    Let's start with the basic point that it is worthless for you to quote the Christian scriptures. The gospels don't actually prophecy, so much as they claim prophecies have been fulfilled, usually by grossly misinterpreting the verses.

    This is based on a Greek mistranslation of the Hebrew. In Hebrew the word is ALMAH, which means maiden aka young woman. NOT virgin. Virgin is an entirely different word: betulah. Every time the gospels translate this verse as virgin, the gospels are being dishonest.

    These verses do NOT say that the Messiah is eternal. They stay that God's throne and his kingdom is forever.

    Again, you are focused on Isaiah 7:14 as if it is messianic when it is not. Isaiah is addressing King Ahaz, and giving him a sign -- a young woman who is already pregnant will give birth to a son (who will be named Emanu El) and the threat to Israel will end by the time this child is weaned.

    This is one of the most horrendous misreadings of the Tanakh. It is totally taken out of context. Do you want to know why Jews did not convert en masse? Because they read stuff like Matthew and laughed. If you actually take the time to look up Hosea 11:1, it says, "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son." IOW this is not a prophetic passage, but a description of Isreal being delivered from Egypt. Shame on Matthew!!! Do you understand that your gospels lose all credibility when they pull fast ones like this?

    Honestly, I'm not in the forum to convert Christians away from your faith. But I do think if you knew the truth about the Tanakh and what it actually says, and how your Christian Scriptures butcher it, you would have a very difficult time.

    I could go on and on. But there you have just a few of the many objections to the long list you provided. Basically, Christians (beginning with what is written in your gospels) take verses out of context, very OBVIOUSLY. All a Jew has to do is look up the original verses to know that your gospels are baloney. So basically your long list is a long list of jokes, with a few truths thrown in.

    Again, my guess is that you are simply going to disagree, which is fine. Thank goodness that we don't all have clone brains. :)
     
  15. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Sorry I did not see anything at all that relates to what I was sharing with you in relation to the scriptures shared with you about ISRAEL.
    Your kind of twisting what I as saying here brother. I already provided the correct meaning earlier on in the post and the end of the post was in relation to the Hebrew word application and context to..

    GENESIS 32:24-28 [24], And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. [25], And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. [26], And he said, let me go, for the day breaks. And he said, I will not let you go, except you bless me. [27], And he said unto him, what is your name? And he said, Jacob. [28], And he said, Your name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince have you power with God and with men, and have prevailed.

    The meaning of the name ISRAEL in context of the scripture application that God gave to Jacob means "an overcomer with God and man; or he shall rule as God" ישׂראל; yiśrâ'êl

    God's name to Jacob is ISRAEL; ישׂראל; yiśrâ'êl meaning "he will rule as God"

    The reason why God gave the name ISRAEL to Jacob was that "as a Prince have you (Jacob) have power with God and man and have prevailed. v28

    PREVAILED; יכל יכול ; yâkôl yâkôl meaning; A primitive root; to be able, literally (can, could) or morally (may, might): - be able, any at all (ways), attain, can (away with, [-not]), could, endure, might, overcome, have power, prevail, still, suffer.


    You need to apply to the Hebrew of Greek word meanings to the context and application of the text that it is applied to to gain the correct meaning of the scripture. The earlier application is correct. Prevail means to overcome. This was in relation to some questions that were asked of you that you simply ignored. You do not need to answer the questions if you do not wish to. That is up to you. They were only provided to help the discussion.

    But seriously do you believe you are a part of God's ISRAEL if you do not believe and do what God's says and your right to eternal life is because you were born into the nation of ISRAEL?
    Of course God's promise is everlasting although it is not as you say unconditional. All of God's promises which you being a JEW should know are all conditional on believing and following God's Word *DEUTERONOMY 27; DEUTERONOMY 28. Although from my understanding of the scriptures ISRAEL today are all those who believe and follow God's Word.
    You are contadicting yourself in this section. Receiving the blessings of God's promises are all conditional on believing and following God's Word, which is who God's true ISRAEL are in the new covenant.
     
  16. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Not sure why you missed the point in the scriptures that were being quoted. They are very much a part of the discussion and were directly addressing your claims that some groups only see what they want to see and close their eyes and ears to everything else. The scriptures were posted as they were directly related to ISRAEL being one of these very groups you were claiming other only see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear.
    These were God's Word that were shared with you. They were not mine but God's showing that ISRAEL had closed their eyes and ears to God's Word and had forsaken God and his ways in order to follow their own ways. If ISRAEL as a nation had correctly interpreted the scriptures they would not have crucified the promised Messiah that the very scriptures God gave to them pointed to.
    All I am hearing here in this section are your words that are not God's Word.
    Actually not really, the translation of עלמה; ‛almâh Feminine of elem H5958 (young man); means a girl (as veiled or private): - damsel, maid, unmarried implied as virgin. This is in reference to a young woman ripe sexually and of marriageable age but has not known a man. The word עלמה ‛almâh, is derived from the verb עלם ‛âlam, "to conceal, to hide, to cover. Veiled or private meaning hidden from man. That is someone still living with their parents unmarried who does not know a man (veiled or private) sexually.

    MA'IDEN, noun meaning is an unmarried woman, or a young unmarried woman; a virgin or can also mean a female slave.

    As part of the Hebrew culture young sexually ripe unmarried woman (girls, maidens and damsels) were assumed to be virgins before knowing a man in marriage sexually.

    The עלמה; ‛almâh here translates as a virgin, is applied to Rebekah Genesis 24:43, and to Miriam, the sister of Moses, Exodus 2:8 (as young unmarried maidens; virgins who had not known a man). It occurs in only seven places in the Old Testament. Besides those already mentioned, it is found in Psalm 68:25; Song of Soloman 1:3; Song of Soloman 6:8; and Proverbs 30:19. In all these places, it is used in its obvious natural sense, to denote a young, unmarried female virgins.

    The generally correct Hebrew word for virgin בתולה bethûlâh as you have pointed out, denotes a pure virgin but בתולה bethûlâh is applied to woman of any age group, therefore is not age specific where as עלמה; ‛almâh is applied to young woman of marriagble age who have been hidden from men and not known man sexually (unmarried) – virgin, which is the application of all the scriptures that עלמה; ‛almâh as applied in the scriptures in the torah.

    The whole connection to every scripture where עלמה; ‛almâh is used, requires us to understand it of a young woman of marrageable age who was "not then married," and hidden from man sexually and who was, therefore, regarded and designated as a virgin.

    There is NO USE of the Hebrew word עלמה; ‛almâh to somone that is married and not a virgin in the torah so the Greek translation of the Hebrew word עלמה; ‛almâh to παρθένος; parthenos meaning a maiden ; by implication an unmarried daughter: - virgin is the most accurate translation and proper meaning of the Hebrew word עלמה; ‛almâh applied in the text of ISAIAH 7:14 to denote a young unmarried women of marrageable age that has been hidden from men sexually - a young unmarried virgin.

    Hope this is helpful
     
    #556 3rdAngel, Nov 27, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019
  17. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    The collective scriptures say the Messiah's is God with us which is the meaning of Emanu El *ISAIAH 7:14 and his throne is everlasting *Pslams 45:2-6
    It is true we do not agree brother. According to the torah and new covenant scriptures the Messiah also represents God's true ISRAEL as an individual as it was applied to Jacob and as to those who also believe and follow God's Word. The Messiah (Jesus Christ) and his followers are the true Israel, the anti-type, the Israel that is not the type as Jacob was or the nation of Israel was in the flesh.

    Jesus is Israel (Matthew 2:13-15; Hosea 11:1; as are his disciples; Hebrews 2:13; Isaiah 8:16,18; John 13:33), the true "overcomer" (John 16:33; Revelation 3:21), the real "Prince" with God (Isaiah 9:6; Daniel 8:11,25, 9:25, 10:13,21, 11:22, 12:1; Acts 3:15, 5:31; Revelation 1:5), being Lord over His own house, whose house are we (Psalms 98:3; Hebrews 3:6; Jeremiah 31:33), who himself is the "elect" (Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18; 1 Peter 2:6) of the Father, in whom all the promises of God find their realization (2 Corinthians 1:20). The promises made by God were all based upon condition (Exodus 19).

    Mat 2:13-15; Hos 11:1; Jer 31:33; Rom 9:6-8; Heb 2:13; Isa 8:16,18; Jhn 13:33, 16:33, 17:12, 18:9, 21:5; 1 Cor 15:46; 2 Cor 1:20; Gal 6:16; Heb 3:6, 8:8,10; Rev 3:21

    'Israel' "after the flesh", as a 'nation', is left desolate (Matthew 23:38; Luke 13:35), to bear no more fruit ever again (Matthew 21:19), cursed, withered away (Mark 11:21), dried up from the roots (Mark 11:20), "twice dead" (Jude 1:12), and the axe already laid at their root (Matthew 3:10; Luke 3:9), cut down and to be thrown into the fire.

    The New [or Everlasting] Covenant is only made with the spiritual “Israel” (Jesus Christ, the "elect" of the Father; Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18-20), this “Judah” (Revelation 5:5) and His “house” (2 Corinthians 1:20 KJB - For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.; – for Christ Jesus, the true “Israel” is the “elect” of God, and thus all who choose to be in Him; see Isaiah 42:1, 45:4, 65:9 KJB)

    The new testament scriptures portray JESUS as the head and those who believe and follow his Word as the body *Ephesians 1:22; 4:15; 5:23; Colossians 1:18. God's ISRAEL are all those who believe and follow God's Word.
    It is true we do disagree but I enjoy our conversation. You have not been provided scripture out of context but in reference to context and Hebrew and Greek word application that demonstrates meaning. As you mentioned earlier sometimes people only see what they want to see without prayerfully asking God who promises to be our teacher. It will be a sad thing I believe for those who decided to unwisely seek God's truth from man whose wisdom is foolishness with God instead of prayerfully seeking God for his truth personally, only to stand before God on judgment day finding out too late what you have lost because they did not understand his Word not being taught by his Spirit.

    May God bless you are you seek him through his Word.
     
    #557 3rdAngel, Nov 27, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
  18. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Genesis 32:29 JPS
    And he said: 'Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel; for thou hast striven with God and with men, and hast prevailed.'

    Contending and prevailing is the reason why Jacob was renamed. It is not the meaning of the name Israel. Israel simply means "Contends with God."

    In no way shape size or for does Israel mean rule as God. Wow. I don't know where you came up with that one, but it is blasphemous to say that a man is God.

    Prevail has many meanings. It does not have all those meanings simultaneously. You have to use context to choose which meaning is being employed. In this passage, prevail means Jacob won.

    All your stuff about Jacob being a Prince etc., I don't even know where you are getting that from.

    Of course. This is the difference between Israel and the faithful of Israel. Do you honestly believe that Israel during the times of the bad Kings, when it slipped into idolatry, was somehow not Israel?



    What I said was a lot more complicated than that. Some parts of it are conditional and other parts are completely unconditional.

    You'll need to go back, and quote exactly where the contradiction is, and then explain why you find it contradictory. As far as I can see, there is nothing contradictory -- we simply disagree.

    As I said before, replacement theology has been rejected by most churches as being the ground floor of Christian anti-Semitism. You have no more right to the land of Israel than an Inuit or a Zimbabwean. I hope and pray that some day you will see things more clearly.
     
  19. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    I gave you an example. Why did you not address it?

    That's right. They are God's words given to the Jews. If you want to read them and be inspired by them, more power to ya!!!! I encourage that. But they were written by Jews about Jews for Jews. If you have questions about them, come to us and ask. Don't just go to church and assume htat a church is going to give you the straight answer.

    Actually not really, the translation of עלמה; ‛almâh Feminine of elem H5958 (young man); means a girl (as veiled or private): - damsel, maid, virgin.[/quote]You did so well until you said virgin. Then you totally messed things up. We have a completely different word for virgin.

    Thank you.

    The other problem with the verse that you have, is that in it, the maiden is ALREADY pregnant. Which is why she isn't a virgin. Here is a better, uncorrupted translation of Isaiah 7:14
    Therefore the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign: Behold the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Emanuel.

    That rather does in your idea that a married woman can't be called an almah. It also does in the idea that this is a prophecy of the future.
     
  20. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Our conversation has kind of come to an impasse, largely because you are not responding to anything I have said. I respond to you. You say X. I say X-Y. But when I say X-Y, you don't respond to it. You just repeat X. That's not really a conversation.

    Here is an example. You began with Isaiah 7:14, and immanuel and the virgin, and saying it was a messianic prophecy. I replied by saying it was a prophecy given to King Ahaz, and wasnt messianic at all. I explained the difference between Almah and Betullah, and I remarked that having the name "God is with us" doesn't mean the person is God. Lots and lots of boys are named Emanuel and none of them are God. What is your response? YOu have acknowledged nothing I said regarding King Ahaz. It's like the first verses of the passage don't exist.

    If this pattern continues, I won't be motivated to continue.
     
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