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Featured COL 2:16 And The Sabbath - Are You Being Told The Truth?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by 3rdAngel, Nov 1, 2019.

  1. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

    Jan 17, 2015
    Yes, you really sound like a preacher. Are you sure you don't already have a church? Amen to all you say.
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  2. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

    Mar 17, 2017
    Iglesia Ni Cristo (Church of Christ)

    How many unexplained verses are there in this post #15?

    Anyway, I have to agree that there is no Jew and Gentile in the Church of Christ and that is in the Bible:

    Galatians 3:26-29 New International Version (NIV)
    So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    But wait....that means these people are not Israelites either since they are neither Jew or Gentile.
    And did Abraham observe the Sabbath the way the Israelites did, as instructed by Moses?
    No, Abraham lived first and it took about 245 years then Moses was born.
    That is why the Bible said "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise" - not Israelite or Israel.

    Do you wonder why? Because Israel isn't really a faithful nation.
    That is why there was a need for a new covenant Jeremiah 31:31
    Let us face it the Israelites are gone and extinct race. They are not even good raw models.

    Acts 7:40-53 New International Version (NIV)

    They told Aaron, ‘Make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who led us out of Egypt—we don’t know what has happened to him!’ That was the time they made an idol in the form of a calf. They brought sacrifices to it and reveled in what their own hands had made. But God turned away from them and gave them over to the worship of the sun, moon and stars. This agrees with what is written in the book of the prophets:

    “‘Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings
    forty years in the wilderness, people of Israel?
    You have taken up the tabernacle of Molek
    and the star of your god Rephan,
    the idols you made to worship.
    Therefore I will send you into exile’ beyond Babylon

    “Our ancestors had the tabernacle of the covenant law with them in the wilderness. It had been made as God directed Moses, according to the pattern he had seen. After receiving the tabernacle, our ancestors under Joshua brought it with them when they took the land from the nations God drove out before them. It remained in the land until the time of David, who enjoyed God’s favor and asked that he might provide a dwelling place for the God of Jacob. But it was Solomon who built a house for him.

    “However, the Most High does not live in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says:

    “‘Heaven is my throne,
    and the earth is my footstool.
    What kind of house will you build for me?
    says the Lord.
    Or where will my resting place be?
    Has not my hand made all these things?’

    “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit! Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him— you who have received the law that was given through angels but have not obeyed it.”

    And that's the Israelites before the Diaspora. The Jewish diaspora (Hebrew: Tfutza, תְּפוּצָה) or exile (Hebrew: Galut, גָּלוּת; Yiddish: Golus) refers to the dispersion of Israelites or Jews out of their ancestral homeland (the Land of Israel) and their subsequent settlement in other parts of the globe Jewish diaspora - Wikipedia
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  3. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Jun 20, 2009
    Christian JW
    If I may...how about we include verses 13-15 as well?

    "Furthermore, though you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcised state of your flesh, God made you alive together with him. He kindly forgave us all our trespasses 14 and erased the handwritten document that consisted of decrees and was in opposition to us. He has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake. 15 He has stripped the governments and the authorities bare and has publicly exhibited them as conquered, leading them in a triumphal procession by means of it.

    16 Therefore, do not let anyone judge you about what you eat and drink or about the observance of a festival or of the new moon or of a sabbath. 17 Those things are a shadow of the things to come, but the reality belongs to the Christ."

    According to Paul, Jesus removed the curse of the Law. It was a curse because it condemned them every day of their lives, proving that no sinful human could keep it. They needed the sacrifice of Jesus to provide permanent forgiveness...but only on the basis of sincere repentance.

    Romans 10:4...

    "For Christ is the end of the Law, so that everyone exercising faith may have righteousness."

    Romans 6:14....

    For sin must not be master over you, seeing that you are not under law but under undeserved kindness."

    Christ fulfilled the written Law and concentrated it into just two commands that are often called the "Law of Christ" or the "Law of Love"...this needs no written laws because it is inscribed on hearts and acted upon according to conscience.

    There is no command for Gentiles to keep the Law or the Sabbath.....please find me one if you think there is.

    When the Jews wanted to enforce circumcision on Gentile Christians, it caused no end of trouble with some insisting that Gentiles must follow the Law......what did the apostles do? They got together and prayed about it. What was their final, spirit directed decision?

    Acts 15:28-29...
    "The holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to [Gentiles], except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication.”
    Do you see the Sabbath as something forced on the Gentile Christians here? These "necessary things" were all the things that Jews naturally avoided because of the Law, but they were common practice among the Gentiles. Even as Paul said, no one was to judge anyone over these things. It was left up to them. There was nothing in the Law that was bad....it just wasn't necessary anymore. A new covenant was instituted and the old covenant was done away with thanks to Christ's sacrifice.

    That is how I see it....
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  4. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

    Jun 24, 2019
    Hi Deeje thanks for sharing your thoughts but from reading what you wrote here I can see you did not read the OP and the supporting scriptures provided in post # 6; posts # 7; posts # 8; posts # 9 and posts # 10 linked did you.

    Anyhow if you read these linked posts you will see that we are looking at the complete context from Colossians 2:11-17. They show that Gods 10 commandmetns are not the topic of conversation. The topic of conversation is the shadow laws in "ORDINACES" from the ceremonial and ecclesiastical laws of the Mosaic book of the old covenant.

    God's law of Love written on the heart *Hebrews 8:10-12 does not do away with God's law (10 commandments) it fulfills them or establishes them in the life of the believer. *Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:8-10; Romans 3:31; Romans 8:2-4 and James 2:8-12.

    I suggest you read post # 6; posts # 7; posts # 8; posts # 9 and posts # 10 linked from the OP as they prove that Colossians 2:11-17 is not talking about God's 10 Commandments but the shadow laws from the Mosaic book of the old covenant that pointed to JESUS and God's plan of salvation in the new covenant and feast days.

    According to God's Word in the new covenant God's LAW (10 commandments) gives us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20 and if we break any one of them we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11. No one is under the law if they have repented and been forgiven of their sins. We are only "under the law" if we are guilty before God of breaking the law *Romans 3:19-20.

    Finally Acts 15 is in reference to "circumcision" being a requirment for salvation *Acts 15:1-2 not weather gentile believers should follow God's 10 commandments or not. Putting that interpretation of Acts 15 is a contradiction on all the new testament scripture and what Paul says elsewhere in Corinthians.

    1 Corinthains 7:19 [19], Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

    Hope this helps

    May God bless you as you seek him through his Word
    #24 3rdAngel, Nov 2, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2019
  5. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

    Jun 24, 2019
    There were none unexplained texts in post #15 they are all proof text to every comment made for post #15 linked in relation to the topic of discussion.
    Thank you brother it is God's Word I am sharing with you not mine. Glad we can agree.
    Nope. God's Israel in the new covenant are all those who believe and follow God's Word. If you are not a part of God's Israel you have no part in God's new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12. Gentile believers are now grafted in *Romans 11:13-27.

    God's true ISRAEL are faithful and are all those who believe and follow God's Word.


    God's ISRAEL are all those in CHRIST that have been given a NEW HEART according to the NEW COVENANT promise...


    In the NEW COVENANT all those in Christ are are God's ISRAEL...

    EPHESIANS 2:11-13 [11], Why remember, that you being in TIME PAST Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; [12], That AT THAT TIME [in the Past] YOU WERE WITHOUT CHRIST, BEING ALIENS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL, STRANGERS FROM THE COVENANT OF PROMISE, HAVING NO HOPE, AND WITHOUT GOD IN THE WORLD: [13], BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS, YOU WHO WERE FAR OFF ARE MADE NEAR BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.


    Hope this helps
    #25 3rdAngel, Nov 2, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2019
  6. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

    Mar 17, 2017
    Iglesia Ni Cristo (Church of Christ)
    This is what I know about Israel.
    I believe God divorced Israel as he declared in:


    Jeremiah 3:8 New International Version (NIV)
    I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery.

    There is no true faithful Israel, what is left is a divorcee.
    And the divorcee killed and murdered the Son of God

    Jeremiah 5:11 New International Version (NIV)
    The people of Israel and the people of Judah
    have been utterly unfaithful to me,”
    declares the Lord.

    Hosea 9:1 New International Version (NIV)
    Do not rejoice, Israel;
    do not be jubilant like the other nations.
    For you have been unfaithful to your God;
    you love the wages of a prostitute

    at every threshing floor.

    And the last book of the Old Testament says this about Israel and Judah:

    Malachi 2:11 New International Version (NIV)
    Judah has been unfaithful. A detestable thing has been committed in Israel and in Jerusalem: Judah has desecrated the sanctuary the Lord loves by marrying women who worship a foreign god.

    No wonder the new covenant was needed, Israel and Judah became

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  7. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

    Nov 2, 2019
    Seventh-day Adventist

    To begin with, Jesus Christ is the true Israel, the anti-type, the Israel that is not the type as Jacob was.

    Jesus is Israel (Matthew 2:13-15; Hosea 11:1; his children are his disciples; Hebrews 2:13; Isaiah 8:16,18; John 13:33), the true "overcomer" (John 16:33; Revelation 3:21), the real "Prince" with God (Isaiah 9:6; Daniel 8:11,25, 9:25, 10:13,21, 11:22, 12:1; Acts 3:15, 5:31; Revelation 1:5), being Lord over His own house, whose house are we (Psalms 98:3; Hebrews 3:6; Jeremiah 31:33), who himself is the "elect" (Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18; 1 Peter 2:6) of the Father, in whom all the promises of God find their realization (2 Corinthians 1:20). The promises made by God were all based upon condition (Exodus 19).

    Mat 2:13-15; Hos 11:1; Jer 31:33; Rom 9:6-8; Heb 2:13; Isa 8:16,18; Jhn 13:33, 16:33, 17:12, 18:9, 21:5; 1 Cor 15:46; 2 Cor 1:20; Gal 6:16; Heb 3:6, 8:8,10; Rev 3:21

    'Israel' "after the flesh", as a 'nation', is left desolate (Matthew 23:38; Luke 13:35), to bear no more fruit ever again (Matthew 21:19), cursed, withered away (Mark 11:21), dried up from the roots (Mark 11:20), "twice dead" (Jude 1:12), and the axe already laid at their root (Matthew 3:10; Luke 3:9), cut down and to be thrown into the fire.

    The New [or Everlasting] Covenant is only made with the spiritual “Israel” (Jesus Christ, the "elect" of the Father; Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18-20), this “Judah” (Revelation 5:5) and His “house” (2 Corinthians 1:20 KJB - For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.; – for Christ Jesus, the true “Israel” is the “elect” of God, and thus all who choose to be in Him; see Isaiah 42:1, 45:4, 65:9 KJB)

    As for the Death Penalty, it is addressed here, and still very much applies, but all in the matter of Who, What, Where, When, Why and How (for the "camp of the saints" is in the 3rd Heaven at the moment, and not on earth):

    You can find a Powerpoint of the Sermon here
  8. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

    Nov 2, 2019
    Seventh-day Adventist
    It is straight forward, in its proper self-interpreting (Gen. 40:8; 2 Peter 1:20) context:

    There is not a single verse in scripture that states that the Sabbath of the LORD was, is or ever will be "Jewish". In fact, Moses was "Hebrew" (of "Levi", not "Judah") and Zipporah wasn't even that (of Midian), so likewise the midwives, and others. The "mixed multitude" were Egyptians, etc. Jesus states that He is the Lord also of the Sabbath. Therefore it is His.

    Colossians 2 KJB (citing Ezekiel 45:17 KJB), parallels Ephesians 2 KJB, and Hebrews 9-10 KJB. The language is the same. The "ordinances" in Colossians 2 deals with "shadows", such as the daily "meat and drink" offerings of a worldly sanctuary and carnal ordinances, the seasonal "feast days", the monthly "new moons", and the year based "sabbaths", in the singular, every 7 and 50th years, as Paul is citing Psalms 98:1-3; and Ezekiel 45:17 KJB with other texts.

    The Sabbath of the LORD thy God is always called "my [as in God's] sabbaths", and the others in Leviticus 23:4 onward are called "your [the peoples] sabbaths" [Leviticus 26:35 KJB] which are "beside [given in addition to] the sabbaths of the LORD" [Leviticus 23:38 KJB]. The Ten Commandments, including the Sabbath of the 4th Commandment, are "light" [Proverbs 6:23, Isaiah 8:20, 51:4 KJB], never a "shadow", are "spiritual" [Romans 7:14 KJB], never "carnal" [Hebrews 9:10 KJB].

    Colossians 2:14 - "ordinances"
    Ephesians 2:15 - "law of commandments contained in ordinances"
    Hebrews 9:1 - "ordinances of divine service"
    Hebrews 9:10 - "carnal ordinances"

    Colossians 2:16 - "in meat, or in drink" [offerings]
    Hebrews 9:10 - "meats and drinks" [offerings]

    Colossians 2:12 - "also ye are risen with him"
    Ephesians 2:6 - "raised us up together"

    Colossians 2:16 - "a shadow of things to come"
    Ephesians 2:7 - "in the ages to come"
    Hebrews 9:11 - "of good things to come"
    Hebrews 10:1 - "the law having a shadow of good things to come", "those sacrifices", "offered year by year"

    [ps. none of the Ten Commandments deal with carnal sacrifices]

    it speaks of plural, "sabbath days" (or 'of sabbaths'). The context, is also not concerned with all 'sabbaths' but is limited in scope, to that which is "shadow" (not light, not body or substance), that which is "of things to come" (type pointing to the future events) and of "ordinances", as follows.

    [1] The Sabbath of the LORD thy God, of Creation (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11), was given to mankind (Adam) before the sin of mankind (Mark 2:27), before the need of shadow and type, which were given after the sin of mankind, under the Levitical priesthood.

    [2] The Sabbath of the LORD the God, is a memorial (pointing backwards, thu the words "Remember" (Exodus 20:8)), to a perfect world without sin, perfect relationship, perfect rest), and is not pointing to the future.

    [3] The Sabbath of the LORD thy God, is singular and specific. "The seventh day" "the sabbath" "of the LORD thy God".

    Exodus 20:8 KJB - Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
    Exodus 20:9 KJB - Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
    Exodus 20:10 KJB - But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
    Exodus 20:11 KJB - For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

    Exodus 20:8 HOT - זכור את־יום השׁבת לקדשׁו׃
    Exodus 20:9 HOT - שׁשׁת ימים תעבד ועשׂית כל־מלאכתך׃
    Exodus 20:10 HOT - ויום השׁביעי שׁבת ליהוה אלהיך לא־תעשׂה כל־מלאכה אתה ובנך־ובתך עבדך ואמתך ובהמתך וגרך אשׁר בשׁעריך׃
    Exodus 20:11 HOT - כי שׁשׁת־ימים עשׂה יהוה את־השׁמים ואת־הארץ את־הים ואת־כל־אשׁר־בם וינח ביום השׁביעי על־כן ברך יהוה את־יום השׁבת ויקדשׁהו׃

    Exodus 20:8 HOT Translit. - zäkhôr et-yôm haSHaBät l'qaD'shô
    Exodus 20:9 HOT Translit. - shëshet yämiym Taávod w'äsiytä Käl-m'lakh'Tekhä
    Exodus20:10 HOT Translit. -w'yôm haSH'viyiy shaBät layhwäh éloheykhä lo-taáseh khäl-m'läkhäh aTäh ûvin'khä-ûviTekhä av'D'khä waámät'khä ûv'hem'Tekhä w'gër'khä ásher Bish'äreykhä
    Exodus 20:11 HOT Translit. - Kiy shëshet-yämiym äsäh y'hwäh et-haSHämayim w'et-hääretz et-haYäm w'et-Käl-ásher-Bäm waYänach BaYôm haSH'viyiy al-Kën Bërakh' y'hwäh et-yôm haSHaBät way'qaD'shëhû š

    [4] The Sabbath of the LORD is separate from the yearly festal sabbaths, as denoted in Leviticus 23 (see Leviticus 23:3; then see Leviticus 23:4,38 "beside the sabbaths of the LORD")

    [5] The Sabbath of the LORD thy God, is called "the sabbath of the LORD" (Exodus 20:8-11, etc), and "My sabbaths" (Isaiah 56:4; Ezekiel 20:20), as opposed to theirs, called "your sabbaths" (Leviticus 26:34,35), and "her sabbaths" (Leviticus 26:34,43; 2 Chronicles 26:31; Lamentations 1:7; Hosea 2:11), etc.

    [6] Colossians 2, in its entire context says nothing about "the seventh day", but speaks of merely the shadow sabbaths (plural, not singular), and says nothing of "commandment" (as Luke 23:54,56 does), but speaks of worldly "ordinances" (Colossians 2:14,20).

    [7] Colossians 2, speaks of "sins" (Colossian 2:13), which is "transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4), of which the 4th Commandment (Exodus 20:8-11) is central, whereas the yearly (and of years) sabbaths are not given in the Ten Commandments at all

    More can be said, but 7 was a good number to round it off at this point, more in detail as needful.

    Paul was citing Ezekiel 45:17:

    Eze 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

    Read Ezekiel 45 in all of its context (and then see Numbers 28-29 from it itself cites),

    Eze_45:14 Concerning the ordinance of oil, the bath of oil, ye shall offer the tenth part of a bath out of the cor, which is an homer of ten baths; for ten baths are an homer:


    Paul's use of Ezekiel 45:17 is in both places contextual to "ordinances", and "shadow", and elsewhere "carnal" and "worldly" (Ephesians 2 and Hebrews 9-10).

    Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

    Therefore, it is not all "sabbaths". It is limited to Paul's citation, and use.

    Non-Seventh-day Adventist sources:

    Interestingly enough Albert Barnes, a noted Bible Commentator, states on Colossians 2:16, on the word “sabbatwn”:

    “... Or of the Sabbath days - Greek, “of the Sabbaths.” The word Sabbath in the Old Testament is applied not only to the seventh day, but to all the days of holy rest that were observed by the Hebrews, and particularly to the beginning and close of their great festivals. There is, doubtless, reference to those days in this place, since the word is used in the plural number, and the apostle does not refer particularly to the Sabbath properly so called. There is no evidence from this passage that he would teach that there was no obligation to observe any holy time, for there is not the slightest reason to believe that he meant to teach that one of the ten commandments had ceased to be binding on mankind. If he had used the word in the singular number - “the Sabbath,” it would then, of course, have been clear that he meant to teach that that commandment had ceased to be binding, and that a Sabbath was no longer to be observed. But the use of the term in the plural number, and the connection, show that he had his eye on the great number of days which were observed by the Hebrews as festivals, as a part of their ceremonial and typical law, and not to the moral law, or the Ten Commandments. No part of the moral law - no one of the ten commandments could be spoken of as “a shadow of good things to come.” These commandments are, from the nature of moral law, of perpetual and universal obligation. ...” - Albert Barnes, Colossians 2:16 Commentary. E-Sword App.

    Furthermore, another noted Commentator, Adam Clarke, states on the same passage:

    “... There is no intimation here that the Sabbath was done away, or that its moral use was superseded, by the introduction of Christianity. I have shown elsewhere that, Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, is a command of perpetual obligation, and can never be superseded but by the final termination of time. ...” - Adam Clarke, Colossians 2:16 Commentary. E-Sword App.

    Even the Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary state:

    “... the sabbath — Omit “THE,” which is not in the Greek (compare Note, see on Gal_4:10). “SABBATHS” (not “the sabbaths”) of the day of atonement and feast of tabernacles have come to an end with the Jewish services to which they belonged (Lev_23:32, Lev_23:37-39). The weekly sabbath rests on a more permanent foundation, having been instituted in Paradise to commemorate the completion of creation in six days. Lev_23:38 expressly distinguished “the sabbath of the Lord” from the other sabbaths. A positive precept is right because it is commanded, and ceases to be obligatory when abrogated; a moral precept is commanded eternally, because it is eternally right. If we could keep a perpetual sabbath, as we shall hereafter, the positive precept of the sabbath, one in each week, would not be needed. Heb_4:9, “rests,” Greek, “keeping of sabbath” (Isa_66:23). But we cannot, since even Adam, in innocence, needed one amidst his earthly employments; therefore the sabbath is still needed and is therefore still linked with the other nine commandments, as obligatory in the spirit, though the letter of the law has been superseded by that higher spirit of love which is the essence of law and Gospel alike (Rom_13:8-10). ...” - Jamieson, Fausset and Brown, Colossians 2:16 Commentary. E-Sword App.
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  9. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

    Jun 20, 2010
    Whaaa? What's a self-interpreting context? A definition please. And what do Gen. 40:8 and 2 Peter 1:20 have to do with what I posted?

    Okay, but :shrug:

  10. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

    Mar 17, 2017
    Iglesia Ni Cristo (Church of Christ)
    When the Lord Jesus Christ walked the earth, there were plenty of Israelites in Israel.
    All of them are Israelites - Jesus and his apostles, the Pharisees, the Saducees, Barabas, Judas every a-ho in Israel were Israelites. Everybody
    John 1:47; Acts 2:22

    But where are they now?
    I can see...Gal Gadot, the wonder woman
    but they are not Israelites
    they are Israelis
    practicing Jews, observing the Sabbath but not Israelites
    because their blood is no longer pure due to inter racial marriages over the centuries after
    the Jewish Diaspora of 70 AD
    that is why you call them Israelis and not Israelites
    The old covenant was only in effect with the Israelites, not with the hybrids.

    That is why we have the new covenant.
    The new covenant is about the Church of Christ
    not the nation of Israel but the Body of Christ
    Here in the Church we are a multi-race

    We do not observe the Sabbath because it passe and obsolete
    People who observe the Sabbath couldn't even enforce the Sabbath rule to kill the violator of the Sabbath.
    And that is the same as breaking the Sabbath, if you cannot enforce it by the letter.


    Matthew 12:1-12 New International Version (NIV)
    At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”

    He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.

    Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to bring charges against Jesus, they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”

    He said to them, “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.

    Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other.


    Did the apostles violate the Sabbath, as written in the Old Testament?
    According to the Pharisees, the apostles of Jesus Christ did violate the Sabbath.

    Did the Lord Jesus Christ violate the Sabbath, as written in the Old Testament?
    According to the Pharisees, Jesus Christ did violate the Sabbath.

    Did Jesus and his apostles commit a sin by not observing the Sabbath?
    No they did not.

    Jesus said - For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.
    And he broke the Sabbath by lording it and not being a slave of the Sabbath
  11. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

    Nov 2, 2019
    Seventh-day Adventist
    Rom_9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
    Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
    Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
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  12. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

    Nov 2, 2019
    Seventh-day Adventist
    Not according to scripture:

    Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
    Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

    Notice in Isaiah 56, speaking of the New and Everlasting Covenant:

    “Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.” – Isaiah 56:1 KJB

    Who is this “salvation” that comes?

    “And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.” – Matthew 1:21 KJB

    “For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,” – Luke 2:30 KJB

    “And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.” – Luke 3:6 KJB

    What/who is this “righteousness” that is revealed?

    “But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;” – Romans 3:21 KJB

    “Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:” – Romans 3:22 KJB

    Jump to vs 8 of Isaiah 56;

    “The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.” – Isaiah 56:8 KJB

    This is cited in the New Testament texts as being fulfilled by Jesus:

    “And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. ” – John 10:16 KJB

    See also: John 21:15-17 KJB, “lambs” (young and spiritually young, babes in Christ), “sheep” (Jewish believers), “sheep” (Gentile believers)

    So, Isaiah 56:1,8 KJB are about Jesus Christ in the New Testament, and those who would follow Him.

    Let’s go back and look at the immediate context (vss. 2-7) in between those two verses, and see what it says about sabbath keeping in the New Covenant.

    “Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.” – Isaiah 56:2 KJB

    “Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.” – Isaiah 56:3 KJB

    “For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;” – Isaiah 56:4 KJB

    “Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.” – Isaiah 56:5 KJB

    “Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;” – Isaiah 56:6 KJB

    “Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.”– Isaiah 56:7 KJB

    This is fulfilled all throughout Acts; Hebrews 4, etc:

    Acts 1:2, 4:24, 13:14,27,42,44, 14:15-16 (17:30), 15:21, 16:13, 17:2, 18:4;
    Hebrews 3:11, 4:1,3,4,5,8,9,10,11; [Hebrews 4:9 "rest" Greek: sabbatismos, literal sabbath-keeping]

    The many times that the "Sabbath" of the LORD is given in the Old Testament (Genesis to Malachi)

    Genesis 2:1-3; (see also, Genesis 18:19, 26:5, &c.)

    The sabbath commandment in the beginning with God (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11; Psalms 119:142).
    The sabbath commandment with Adam (Mark 2:27; Ecclesiastes 12:13-14).
    The sabbath commandment with Enoch (Genesis 5:22,24; Hebrews 11:5; Isaiah 58:13)
    The sabbath commandment with Noah (Genesis 6:9; 2 Peter 2:5; Psalms 119:172).
    The sabbath commandment with Eber (Genesis 10:21,24-25; Exodus 3:18, 5:3, 7:16).
    The sabbath commandment with Abraham (Genesis 17:9, 18:19, 26:5; 2 Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8; James 2:23; John 15:14).
    The sabbath commandment with Isaac (Genesis 17:9, 18:19, 26:5).
    The sabbath commandment with Jacob/Israel (Genesis 17:9, 18:19, 26:5, 32:28).
    The sabbath commandment with Moses (Exodus 5:4-5;, 16:1-36, 20:8-11; Deuteronomy 5:12-15, 31:12-18). ...
    The sabbath commandment with Jesus (Luke 4:16-19).
    The sabbath commandment with the Apostles/Disciples (Acts 1:2, (4:24), 13:14,27,42,44, (14:15), 15:21, 16:13, 17:2, 18:4; Hebrews 3:11,18, 4:1,3,4,5,8,9,10,11; Revelation 1:10, 10:6, 12:17, 14:6-7)
    The sabbath commandment with us today (Hebrews 4:9; Revelation 12:17, 14:6-7; John 14:15; Exodus 20:6,8-11).
    The sabbath commandment on into eternity (Isaiah 66:23).

    Exodus 5:4-5,8-9, 16:23-30, 20:8-11, 23:12, 31:12-18, 34:21, 35:1-3
    Leviticus 19:3,30, 23:3,11,15-16,38, 24:8, 26:2
    Numbers 15:32, 28:9
    Deuteronomy 5:12-15
    2 Kings 4:23, 11:5,7,9, 16:18
    1 Chronicles 9:32, 23:31
    2 Chronicles 2:4, 8:13, 23:4,8, 31:3
    Nehemiah 9:6,14, 10:31,33, 13:15-22
    Psalms 92:1, 146:6
    Isaiah 56:2,4,6, 58:13, 66:23
    Jeremiah 17:21-27
    Ezekiel 20:12-24, 22:8,26, 23:38, 44:24, 46:1,3-4,12
    Amos 8:5

    The many times that the "Sabbath" of the LORD is given in the New Testament:

    Matthew 12:1,2,5,8,10,11,12, 24:20, 28:1;
    Mark 1:21, 2:23,24,27,28, 3:2,4, 6:2, 7:6-9, 15:42, 16:1;
    Luke 4:16,31, 6:1,2,5,6,7,9, 13:10,14,15,16, 14:1,3,5, 23:54,56;
    John 5:9,10,16,18, 7:22,23, 9:14,16, 12:1 (calculated), 19:31;
    Acts 1:2, 13:14,27,42,44, 15:21, 16:13, 17:2, 18:4;

    Additional references are:

    John 12:1 (six days before the Passover, Jesus was at Lazarus' house, on Sabbath)
    Hebrews 3:11, 4:1,3,4,5,8,9,10,11; [Hebrews 4:9 "rest" Greek: sabbatismos, literal sabbath-keeping]
    Revelation 1:10 [kuriake hemera, "the Lord's Day" [the 7th Day Sabbath, not "the Day of the Lord", this is totally different in the Greek], see Genesis 2:1-3, Exodus 20:8-11, Deuteronomy 5:12:15, Isaiah 58:13, 66:23, Matthew 12:8, Mark 2:27,28; Luke 6:5 ], Revelation 10:6 [see also Exodus 20:11, 31:17; Nehemiah 9:6; Psalms 146:6; Acts 4:24, 14:15, Revelation 14:7]; Revelation 14:7 [see previous], etc

    Additionally, further references in the Greek are [every single 'first [day] of the week' text, as each text clearly shows that the first day is simply a number, with no special association or designation, other than it is simply one day toward the culmination of the week, being the 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD thy God]:

    1:5 (Masoretes Hebrew) יום אחד׃ (Transliterated) yôm echäd f
    Matthew 28:1(a) - (Koine Greek) οψε δε σαββατων (Transliterated) oye de sabbatwn
    Matthew 28:1(b) - (Koine Greek) εις μιαν σαββατων (Transliterated) eiV mian sabbatwn
    Mark 16:2 - (Koine Greek) και λιαν πρωι της μιας σαββατων (Transliterated) kai lian prwi ths mias sabbatwn
    Mark 16:9 - (Koine Greek) αναστας δε πρωι πρωτη σαββατου (Transliterated) anastas de prwi prwth sabbatou
    Luke 24:1 - (Koine Greek) τη δε μια των σαββατων (Transliterated) th de mia twn sabbatwn
    John 20:1 - (Koine Greek) τη δε μια των σαββατων (Transliterated) th de mia twn sabbatwn
    John 20:19 - (Koine Greek) τη μια των σαββατων (Transliterated) th mia twn sabbatwn
    Acts 20:7 - (Koine Greek) εν δε τη μια των σαββατων (Transliterated) en de th mia twn sabbatwn
    1 Corinthians 16:2 - (Koine Greek) κατα μιαν σαββατων (Transliterated) kata mian sabbatwn

    That the Sabbath [of the Lord thy God], [being] the 7th day, is always the culmination of the week in God's Created order and is always referred to as such in all of scripture.

    Therefore, every single “first [day] of the week” text upholds the 7th Day Sabbath, and is undeniable evidence of its continued existence and prominence.

    The body of believers may gather on any and every day with no injunction anywhere found in scripture against such, and in truth they met "daily", "continually", etc (Mat 26:55; Mar 14:49; Luk 22:53, 24:33,36; Acts 19:9) and likewise among the followers of Jesus Christ (Luk 24:51,53; Acts 1:3,9, 2:46-47, 5:42, 6:1, 16:5, 17:11,17; Heb 3:13, etc), but not every day is the sabbath of the LORD.
    #32 Crosstian, Nov 3, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2019
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  13. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

    Nov 2, 2019
    Seventh-day Adventist
    There is no text in scripture that says so. You might attempt John 5:18, but look at the word "broke" in its context, for scripture cannot be broken (Jon 10:35), for Jesus said:

    Joh_15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

    looking at the text [John 5:18], this word for “broken” is ελυενG3089 V-IAI-3S [Grk. Trans. = eleun] and, generally meaning 'loosed' [as in, 'untied', 'unbound', 'set free'], can be seen in other passages, like:

    loose, 15

    Mat_16:19, Mat_18:18, Mar_11:2 (2), Mar_11:4, Luk_13:15, Luk_19:30-31 (2), Luk_19:33, Joh_11:44, Act_24:25-26 (2), Rev_5:2, Rev_5:5, Rev_9:14

    loosed, 10

    Mat_16:19, Mat_18:18, Mar_7:35, Luk_13:16, Act_2:24, Act_22:30, 1Co_7:27, Rev_9:15, Rev_20:3, Rev_20:7

    broken, 7

    Joh_5:18, Joh_7:23, Joh_10:35, Act_13:43, Act_27:41, Act_27:44, Eph_2:14

    unloose, 3

    Mar_1:7, Luk_3:16, Joh_1:27

    destroy, 2

    Joh_2:19, 1Jo_3:8

    dissolved, 2

    2Pe_3:11-12 (2)

    loosing, 2

    Mar_11:5, Luk_19:33

    break, 1


    melt, 1


    off, 1


    put, 1

    Act_7:33 (2)

    Therefore did Jesus “destroy” the Sabbath? No. He clearly defends His position from Scripture upholding the Sabbath. Did Jesus “dissolve” the Sabbath? Again, No, otherwise why defend His actions from Scripture about the appropriateness of what was permissible in/on the Sabbath? Did Jesus actually “break” the Sabbath? No, for that would have been sin [1 John 3:4, etc], and would have been contrary to Jesus' own mission as stated in Prophecy [Isaiah 42:21], in which He would “magnify” the Law and make it “honourable”, not dishonourable or lessened. Therefore, what does this word “broken” mean in the context of the Pharisaical understanding? Jesus ignored their ma-made traditions which placed heavy “burdens” upon Sabbath, which God never gave:

    Mat_23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

    Jesus therefore indeed “broke” the Sabbath free of these horrendous selfish regulations which the Pharisees, etc had burdened it with which went counter to God's law and intent from Creation, but never ever would He break the Sabbath as commanded to all men [the Sabbath commandment even speaks of Gentiles and beasts of the earth, and nowhere does it say “Jew” in the Commandment, Exodus 20:8-11]. In effect, what Jesus did was give rest back to the people on Sabbath. :) He loosed their restrictions, untied those toilsome knots, and set it free to be obeyed in righteousness.

    Jesus is still LORD also of the Sabbath. Which means He properly demonstrated how to observe it, keep it, not cast it away. See Luke 4:

    Luk 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.
    Luk 4:15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
    Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
    Luk 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
    Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
    Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
    Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
    Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
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  14. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

    Jul 1, 2018
    biblical believer
    It was the prophet Zephaniah through whom the Lord said; "I am going to destroy everything 'ON EARTH', All human beings and animals, birds and fish. I will bring about the downfall of the wicked. I will destroy mankind and no survivors will be left. I the Lord have spoken. . . . . . . . . "On the day when the Lord shows his fury, not even all their gold and silver will save them. The whole 'EARTH' will be destroyed by the fire of his anger. He will put an end----a sudden end----to everyone who lives 'ON EARTH.' " GNB.

    The weekly Sabbath, said Paul, in Colossians 2: 17; was but a shadow of the reality in the future, which is the Great Sabbath, the Lords day of one thousand years.

    From the Book of Jubilees 4: 30; "And He (Adam) lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: "On the day thou eat thereof ye shall die." For this reason, Adam did not complete the years of that first day; for He died during it." Adam died at the age of 930 in the first day.

    We are now approaching the close of the 6th day and the beginning of the 7th, which is the great Sabbath, “The Day of The Lord” the seventh period of one thousand years from the day that Adam ate of the forbidden fruit and died in that first day at the age of 930, which day begins after the greatest period of tribulation that this world has ever seen.

    This coming period of tribulation is said to be so severe, that if it were not for the intervention of the Lord, no flesh would survive. We are almost at the close of the sixth day, and soon comes the great tribulation, which is the war to end all wars, after which the Sabbath will dawn, but when? Nobody knows the exact date.
  15. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

    Nov 2, 2019
    Seventh-day Adventist
    All scripture is inspired of God (2 Timothy 3:16-17), given by the Holy Ghost/Spirit (2 Peter 1:21), and as such God defined what God said through the prophets.messengers all along the way in scripture:

    Gen 40:8 And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you.

    2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

    Luk_24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

    The word of God (KJB) defines itself internally. It is a self contained dictionary, thesaurus, math tables, alpha-bet, etc

    For instance:

    Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

    For instance:

    Rev_19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

    Eph_6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
    Heb_4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

    For instance:

    Jdg_9:5 And he went unto his father's house at Ophrah, and slew his brethren the sons of Jerubbaal, being threescore and ten persons, upon one stone: notwithstanding yet Jotham the youngest son of Jerubbaal was left; for he hid himself.

    2Ki_10:7 And it came to pass, when the letter came to them, that they took the king's sons, and slew seventy persons, and put their heads in baskets, and sent him them to Jezreel.

    For instance:

    Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

    Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

    Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

    For instance:

    [1] Defining the words according to the scriptural method [Isaiah 28:9-10], even like a Thesaurus:
    Isa_43:7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

    [A] I have created him,

    I have formed him,

    [C] I have made him.

    Thus we see that the Bible defines words for us, even after a manner of a Thesaurus, for “created”, means “formed”, and means “made”. Did not need another book, any look at the Hebrew or Greek, did we? The whole King James Bible is like this. It is the True Bible in English. Look at Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 1:27. Again, see the words “created” and “made”. Though they are two different Hebrew words, even as the English shows, they mean the same thing. God does this all of the time, since it is written, that it must be, in the mouth of two or three witnesses, let everything be established [2 Corinthians 13:1, etc].
    1Jn_1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

    [A] which we have seen with our eyes

    which we have looked upon
    Notice that the words which are being defined or given in similitude, have surrounding words which are normally, usually, the same, “I have … him” [Isaiah 43], and “which we have” [1 John 1:1], etc. Again, take notice:
    1Jn_1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

    1Jn_1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

    1Jn_1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

    1Jn_1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

    [A] bear witness, and shew unto you

    manifested unto us

    [C] seen and heard declare we unto you

    [D] these things write we unto you

    [E] this is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you

    [A] the life

    that eternal life … with the Father, ...

    [C] with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ

    [D] God … in him ...

    Those are the similitudes, samenesses, but notice also, the oppositions, the negatives, which also help in defining:

    [A] God is light

    in him is no darkness at all

    [2] Consider another example:

    1Pe_3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:

    1Pe_3:11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.

    [A] let him refrain his tongue from evil

    let him eschew evil

    [A] let him seek peace

    ensue it
  16. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

    Nov 2, 2019
    Seventh-day Adventist
    3] Another, more complex:
    Jdg_9:2 Speak, I pray you, in the ears of all the men of Shechem, Whether is better for you, either that all the sons of Jerubbaal, which are threescore and ten persons, reign over you, or that one reign over you? remember also that I am your bone and your flesh.

    Jdg_9:4 And they gave him threescore and ten pieces of silver out of the house of Baalberith, wherewith Abimelech hired vain and light persons, which followed him.

    Jdg_9:5 And he went unto his father's house at Ophrah, and slew his brethren the sons of Jerubbaal, being threescore and ten persons, upon one stone: notwithstanding yet Jotham the youngest son of Jerubbaal was left; for he hid himself.

    Jdg_9:18 And ye are risen up against my father's house this day, and have slain his sons, threescore and ten persons, upon one stone, and have made Abimelech, the son of his maidservant, king over the men of Shechem, because he is your brother;)

    Jdg_9:24 That the cruelty done to the threescore and ten sons of Jerubbaal might come, and their blood be laid upon Abimelech their brother, which slew them; and upon the men of Shechem, which aided him in the killing of his brethren.

    Jdg_9:56 Thus God rendered the wickedness of Abimelech, which he did unto his father, in slaying his seventy brethren:

    [A] threescore and ten sons

    his sons, threescore and ten persons

    [C] threescore and ten sons

    [D] seventy brethren

    With this, we can even see how the Bible defines “score”, as twenty. Consider:

    threescore and ten = seventy

    subtract, “take away” [Proverbs 25:4], “ten” from both sides; for the “ways of the LORD are equal” [Ezekiel 18:25] and “my [the LORD's] ways equal” [Ezekiel 18:29].

    threescore and ten “take away” ten = seventy “take away” ten

    threescore = sixty

    then “rightly divide” [2 Timothy 2:15] both sides by “three”, keeping them in equality.

    threescore divided by three = sixty divided by three

    score = twenty

    Didn't even need a dictionary, nor Abraham Lincoln [fourscore and seven years ago...]

    [A] slew his brethren

    slain his sons

    [C] the cruelty done to … sons

    [D] slew them … in the killing of his brethren

    [E] the wickedness … in slaying … brethren

    [4] A different example, should God's word retain the so-called 'archaic' words, or do we need to update them? What does God do?

    1Sa_9:9 (Beforetime in Israel, when a man went to enquire of God, thus he spake, Come, and let us go to the seer: for he that is now called a Prophet was beforetime called a Seer.)

    2Sa_24:11 For when David was up in the morning, the word of the LORD came unto the prophet Gad, David's seer, saying,

    1Ch_29:29 Now the acts of David the king, first and last, behold, they are written in the book of Samuel the seer, and in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the book of Gad the seer,

    2Ch_9:29 Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, first and last, are they not written in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite, and in the visions of Iddo the seer against Jeroboam the son of Nebat?

    2Ch_12:15 Now the acts of Rehoboam, first and last, are they not written in the book of Shemaiah the prophet, and of Iddo the seer concerning genealogies? And there were wars between Rehoboam and Jeroboam continually.

    2Ch_29:25 And he set the Levites in the house of the LORD with cymbals, with psalteries, and with harps, according to the commandment of David, and of Gad the king's seer, and Nathan the prophet: for so was the commandment of the LORD by his prophets.

    [A] Beforetime … a man went to enquire of God … let us go to the seer

    for he that is now called a Prophet was beforetime called a Seer.

    [A] beforetime [past]

    now [in contrast, opposite; therefore - present]

    [C] beforetime [past]

    The word “seer” is the older, so-called 'archaic' word, because it is said that this word was used “beforetime”, which means in the past before that moment. The current word in use was the word “prophet”. Even though the current word utilized is “prophet”, God did not remove the older word “seer”, but keeps them both, so that when one comes across the older words elsewhere, we know what that word means, and can also understand that the time was before the time that the word prophet was in use. It helps to identify the various epochs in scripture, from one generation to another. If we removed the older word “seer” and just replaced it with the current word “prophet”, then not only would 1 Samuel 9:9 not make any sense, but it would also confuse the previous epochs with the current. See fore yourself. Go ahead and mentally substitute the word “prophet” where the word “seer” is in 1 Samuel 9:9 and see if it makes any sense without changing the actual meaning of the other words present. It cannot be done, unless one would want to re-write that verse in their own manner, a “private interpretation” [2 Peter 1:20], ignoring the underlying Hebrew manuscripts, in what it actually says. If this is done here, how many other places in scripture, in both Hebrew and Greek, would also have to be re-written, just to be rid of the so-called 'archaic' words? God is very serious about the punishments for those who do that [Deuteronomy 4:2, 12:32; Proverbs 30:6; Numbers 22:18, 24:13; Revelation 22:18,19].

    Who does “translation” anyway? God [2 Samuel 3:10; Colossians 1:3; Hebrews 11:5]. A “translation” done by God, through the Holy Spirit, is always better. Who does “interpretation” anyway? God, see Genesis 40:8, for there is to be no private interpretations, per 2 Peter 1:20.
  17. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

    Jun 24, 2019
    Hi MJ, your only repeating yourself here brother as this post has already been addressed in post # 25 linked. The scriptures provided in the linked post # 25 show your getting "ISRAEL" of the "OLD COVENANT" mixed up with God's ISRAEL in the "NEW COVENANT" I am happy to start a new thread about this and discuss this topic in detail if you like just let me know?

    However brother it is simply a distraction from the OP here which is talking about COLOSSIANS 2:11-17. Did you have anything to share in relation to this OP?

    May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.
  18. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

    Jun 24, 2019
    Hi brother Anointed nice to meet you here. :) Brother from reading your post here it seems you have not read the OP and the scriptures provided there.

    Can I suggest you read post # 6; posts # 7; posts # 8; posts # 9 and posts # 10 linked from the OP as they prove that Colossians 2:11-17 is not talking about anyone of God's 10 Commandments but the shadow laws from the Mosaic book of the old covenant that pointed to JESUS and God's plan of salvation in the new covenant and feast days. This includes all the "shadow sabbaths" connected to the annual feast days.

    According to God's Word in the new covenant God's LAW (10 commandments) gives us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20 and if we break any one of them we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11. No one is under the law if they have repented and been forgiven of their sins. We are only "under the law" if we are guilty before God of breaking the law *Romans 3:19-20.

    It is impossible for God's 4th commandment "seventh day" weekly sabbath to be a shadow of anything as it was part of a "finished work" of creation where God rested after he created all things in heaven and earth, set apart the "seventh day" from all the other days of the week, "blessed" the seventh day and made the seventh day a "holy day for all mankind *Genesis 2:1-3; Mark 2:27. The reason why God's 4th commandment "seventh day sabbath" is "impossible" to be a "shadow law" was because there was no sin, and mankind was in perfect harmony with God and there was no plan of salvation given to mankind from which the shadow laws of Moses are given.

    May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.
  19. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

    Jun 24, 2019
    Hello Crosstian, welcome brother :). Great post! It is alway so nice to see others who read and prayerfully study God's Word for themselves. This is a very good post and complimentary to the OP. Thankyou very much for sharing it with us here.

    You may also be interested in another thread just started here called...

    Man made traditions from the Church or the Word of God - Who do you believe and follow?

    God bless
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

    Nov 2, 2019
    Seventh-day Adventist
    Actually that is not what Paul said. There is nowhere in the context anything about the 7th day or "week". The context declares Paul citing Ezekiel 45:17 in the context of "ordinances". The 4th Commandment is never called "ordinance" in scripture, but either "commandment" or "law". The 4th Commandment, being one of the "ten commandments", is thus part of a "whole" law (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14), and the Bible states that the Law is Light, never shadow. That which was shadow were their yearly (of years) sabbaths, given after sin. The 7th day the sabbath of the LORD exists before the sin of mankind, when there was no need of shadow, all being Light, good, very good and finished (perfected, completed).

    Pro_6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:
    • Like Like x 1