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Featured COL 2:16 And The Sabbath - Are You Being Told The Truth?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by 3rdAngel, Nov 1, 2019.

  1. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    Ah, Luciferian doctrine, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law ...". The real doctrine of Iglesia Ni Christo, is thelemic, or Aliester Crowley-ian.
     
  2. Rival

    Rival Veteran Member
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    It's a Noahide.

    And yes, you are absolutely right; there's no need for Jesus anywhere in my faith when I can repent directly to G-d.
     
  3. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Simply follow God's Word and directions in regards to the Sabbath. According to God's Word the SABBATH starts from sunset and finishes the next sunset. Here are a few thoughts from God's WORD on how we keep the Sabbath.

    HOW DO WE KEEP THE SABBATH?

    WHAT DOES GOD'S 4TH COMMANDMENT SAY?

    EXODUS 20:8-11
    [8], Remember the SABBATH DAY, to KEEP IT HOLY. <Why?> Because God made it Holy for mankind and commands us to keep it as a Holy day)
    [9], Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work:
    [10], But the SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: <WHY>
    [11], For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the SEVENTH DAY: wherefore the LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH, and HALLOWED IT.

    WHAT DAY IS GOD'S SABBATH AND WHEN DOES IT START?

    v10 The SEVENTH DAY of the week. (Friday sunset to Saturday sunset)

    GENESIS 1:4-5 [4], And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
    [5], And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. A day in God's time is the night (darkness) and the light make up one day. The DAY in God's WORD starts at SUNSET and ends the following SUNSET. So God's 4th Commandment Sabbath would start Friday at SUNSET and end Saturday at SUNSET.

    ALL UNECCESSARY WORK TO BE DONE BEFORE FRIDAY SUNSET

    EXODUS 16:22-23
    [22], And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses.
    [23], And he said to them, This is that which the LORD has said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath to the LORD: bake that which you will bake to day, and seethe that you will seethe; and that which remains over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

    MARK 15:42, And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath

    The preparation day is the 6th day of the week. This includes preparing to stop all business and secular work as well as any domestic work; cooking, cleaning; shopping, buying and selling that can be done on any other day of the week.

    IT IS LAWFUL TO DO GOOD ON THE SABBATH?

    MATTHEW 12:5-12
    [5], Or have you not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
    [6], But I say to you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
    [7], But if you had known what this means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, you would not have condemned the guiltless.
    [8], For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day
    [9], And when he was departed from there, he went into their synagogue:
    [10], And, behold, there was a man who had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
    [11], And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
    [12], How much then is a man better than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

    MARK 2:27, And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath

    It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.

    WHAT IS LAWFUL ON GOD'S SABBATH?

    1. Remembering the creator and his creation (Exod 20:8-11)
    2. Rest from all unnecessary work (Ecodus 20:10-11)
    3. Doing good (Matt 12:12)
    4. Prayer (Acts 16:13; Matt 21:13)
    5. Worship the creator (Isaiah 58:13-14; Ex 34:14; 1KING 9:6; Rev 14:6-12)

    Practical examples...

    Song, praise, bible study, helping others, preaching the gospel, resting, prayer, seeking God, remembering the creator and his creation. Walking in nature, going to church with like minded believers. (too many scriptures)

    WHAT IS NOT LAWFUL ON GOD'S SABBATH?

    WORK; all business and secular work as well as any domestic work; cooking, cleaning; shopping, buying and selling that can be done on any other day of the week and anything to do with work (Exodus 20:8-11; Ex 16:22-23; Matt 21:13).

    .............

    There is no purpose in FOLLOWING any of God's LAWs including the SABBATH if it is NOT done through FAITH that works by LOVE because it is ONLY as GOD writes his LAW to LOVE then we can take up our beds to follow him. LOVE is the fulfilling of GOd's LAW in those who BELIEVE (Rom 13:8-10)

    God's people keep God's Sabbath because they love JESUS *John 14:15. The Sabbath is a blessing from the presence of the Lord as God is in the day which makes it Holy.

    May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.
     
    #243 3rdAngel, Nov 6, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
  4. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Hello Rival nice to see you. For me I see you are living in the prophetic shadow laws dear friend of the Old Covenant needing animal sacrifices and burnt offereings that you cannot practice in order to follow a faith that missed the coming of the Messiah that these shadow laws all pointed to. That is like planning to go on a holiday and buying a plane ticket only to miss the plane and have no holiday. The law and the prophets all pointed to JESUS and God's plan of salvation through faith in His Word.
     
  5. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Hi RS nice to see you again and welcome back. Good question but a misguided one by many churches (not you) trying to justify breaking God's law.

    Very simply though according to God's Word, before the written Word of God given by God and through Moses there was the "spoken" Word of God given directly to God's people.

    The Sabbath was not given to mankind at Mt Sinai it was given to mankind (Adam and Eve) at creation. The written Word of God was given to God's people at Sinai because God's people were in slavery for 400 years to the Egyptians and had mostly forgotten it.

    Genesis 26:5 Because Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

    Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong
    LAWS - H8451; תּורה תּרה; tôrâh tôrâh; to-raw', to-raw'From H3384; a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch: - law.

    Abraham kept God's TORAH which includes God's LAW (10 Commandments) and the sacrificial laws for remission of SIN and SIN offerings.

    Genesis 22:3-13,
    3, And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it on Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
    7, And Isaac spoke to Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
    8, And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

    13, And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

    Burnt offereings were made for remission of SIN. What is SIN? Sin is disobedience to God's WORD and includes breaking God's Commandments (Romans 7:7; James 2:9-11; 1 John 3:4). It is God's WORD and his LAW that give us a KNOWLEDGE of SIN (Romans 3:20)

    Romans 3:19, Now we know that what things soever the law said, it said to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
    20, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    NOW if GOD tells us that Abraham kept his TORAH (LAWS) then is God's 4th Commandment not part of the TORAH?

    Indeed it is. Where does it say in God's WORD that Abraham or any of God's people before MOSES did NOT Keep God's Sabbath?

    God says Abraham kept TORAH (10 Commandments and sin offereings). You say Abraham DID NOT keep TORAH (This includes God's 4th Commandment). Who do we believe God or man?

    Now if you BELIEVE Abraham did NOT keep God's SABBATH (part of TORAH) then please show the scriptures proving that Abraham did not keep the Sabbath which is part of the TORAH?

    God's WORD shows God's LAW (10 Commandments) and the CEREMONIAL laws and ORDINANCES for SIN offerings (TORAH) were kept BEFORE Mt Sinai through the spoken Word of God.

    Let's look at God's WORD....

    Genesis 26:5, Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

    Genesis 5:24, And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

    Genesis 6:8, But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. 9, These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

    .............

    CONCLUSION
    : God's people before Mt Sinai followed him and kept his laws (TORAH) through the God's spoken Word. God's Sabbath is a part of God's law (TORAH). There is NO scripture that says God's people including Abraham did NOT keep God's Sabbath. Genesis shows that God's people including Abraham kept his law (TORAH) which includes the Sabbath. There are many more scripture proof here in the torah on the spoken Word of God showing that God's people before Exodus knew God's laws but this is enough for now.
     
    #245 3rdAngel, Nov 6, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
  6. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Are you so busy collecting scripture out of all context to that for which they were intended in your attempt to support your erroneous beliefs, that you are ignorant to the fact that the Israelites were not in Egypt for over 400 years, but only 215.

    In what year do you suppose that the Israelites left Egypt?
     
  7. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    These are all your words my friend denying God's Word. You say "out of context out of context" yet you have been provided context and all the scripture and chapter context to this OP on Colossians 2:11-17 that show why a single scripture you cherry pick and take out of context to the rest of the chapter is in error. Now what is it exactly that you claim I have taken out of context and if you cannot show me through the scriptures alone, why do you not believe God's Word when I have only provided the context you have left out? You post is only a distraction to the post you are quoting from that shows before the written Word there was the spoken Word of God.
     
    #247 3rdAngel, Nov 6, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
  8. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    Your mathematics are in error, see the full chain here: Age of the Earth, a Chronological study

    Just jump to the section you refer to, the scriptures are therein listed.

    In Part:

    "... Exodus 12:40 Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years.

    Exodus 12:41 And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt.

    We have further confirmation of the 400+ year time span (400 years of being entreated evil, and the first 30 of being treated with kindness because of Joseph), as God had foretold this to Abraham:

    Genesis 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

    Genesis 15:14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

    Acts 7:6 And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years.

    Acts 7:6 And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place.

    Galatians 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

    Genesis 47:4 proves that the famine in the land of Canaan was already in its second year (Genesis 41:30, 45:6; at which time Jacob was 130 years of age; Genesis 47:9; AM 2299), and Genesis 46:4 shows that it was God who commanded Jacob/Israel to go into Egypt, and that God would be with Him entering in, and leaving (with his children), for a promise of the future was given to Abraham, that the Egyptians would “afflict them” (Genesis 15:13), and “entreat them evil four hundred years” (Acts 7:6). Yet we know that Jacob/Israel and his children were not entreated evil or afflicted at the first (30 years), but received welcome into Egypt on behalf of Joseph by command of Pharaoh (Genesis 47:6,11,29, 50:22). It was only after the famine of 7 years was over (Genesis 41:30, 45:6; AM 2304), and after Jacob/Israel died (17 years later from speaking to Pharaoh, at the age of 147; Genesis 47:28, 49:33; Acts 7:15; AM 2316) and a few more years (AM 2329), that a change slowly began to take place, and all the moreso when Joseph himself died (Genesis 50:22,26; Exodus 1:6; AM 2370) and a new Pharaoh arose (Exodus 1:8-14). A slow transition had taken place, and didn't all take place in a day.

    Therefore, if we take the date at which Jacob/Israel stood before Pharaoh (at age 130; Gen 47:9; AM 2299) and was invited into the land of Egypt, along with all his household, we can simply add the 430 years (Exodus 12:40-41; Galatians 3:17) to that date. AM 2299 + 430 = AM 2729, for the coming out of Egypt, “even the selfsame day” (Exodus 12:41). ..."
     
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  9. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for sharing this Crosstian. It was a very good post. I was going to answer this but decided not to as I only saw the post you were quoting from here as a distraction to the post he was quoting from that I provided earlier to someone else that shows that before the written Word of God there was the spoken Word of God.
     
    #249 3rdAngel, Nov 6, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
  10. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry, but I like to go slowly. I will require more substantial scriptural evidence to be convinced of your interpretation!

    Abraham obeyed God's voice, kept His charge, His commandments, statutes and laws (Gen.26:5). This is what scripture tells us. This we agree on.

    You have then interpreted the text privately to suggest that the laws given to Abraham must have been the same laws as those given of Moses. The word TORAH means 'instruction or teaching' and could be used to refer to laws that were given by God prior to the covenant with Moses. Strong's definition does not say that the Torah IS exclusively the Mosaic Law. It says that the Mosaic Law, and Decalogue, are specific examples of TORAH. [It would be interesting to hear what our Hebraists have to say about this]

    You cite the example of Abraham offering Isaac as a burnt offering. Scripture interprets scripture, so this is not because he was following the Mosaic law but because he was following the specific commandment given to him by God in Genesis 22:2; 'Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.' This is what Abraham did in compliance with the commandment of God.

    I also question your understanding of burnt offerings. Under Mosaic law burnt offerings were voluntary offerings, unlike sin and trespass offerings, which were compulsory. In your evidence you have described the burnt offering as a sin offering.

    Finally, I feel very uncomfortable with the suggestion that somehow there are 'spoken' words of God that God has chosen to hide from us, despite the fact that their revelation could dramatically alter our understanding of how we are to please Him! It's not good enough to argue that because Abraham never overtly celebrates the Sabbath, that this means he must have done so covertly! Surely, it's what God SAYS that is of importance, not what God witholds.

    My conclusion: If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. The law is a default for all who require discipline.
    Romans 14:5: One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
    I would like to see government uphold the right of individuals to take a day of rest every seven days, but I am not about to suggest to others that strict Sabbath adherence is necessary for acceptance into God's Kingdom.
     
  11. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Your earlier claims and question was...
    As shown through the scriptures alone in the post that responds to the quote above from post # 245 linked, it was shown that before the written word of God there was the spoken word of God. Your argument for trying to claim no one kept God's 4th commandment before Exodus is in fact an argument of silence as you have no scripture to say that God's LAWS were not kept before Exodus.

    On the other hand you were provided God's Word showing that God's people who were given the spoken word of God, "before" the written Word of God at Mt Sinai did indeed keep God's LAW's.

    No one said these laws were exactly the same as the Mosiac laws. Your stating something I have never said therefore your making a strawman argument no one has ever said or believes and if I have never said as such why are you pretending that I have?

    The spoken Word of God shows that before the written Word of God Abraham obeyed God's voice (the spoken Word), and kept his charge, his commandments, his statutes, and his laws. The Hebrew Word used here as shown earlier is תּורה תּרה; tôrâh tôrâh; to-raw', to-raw' From H3384; a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch: - law. *Genesis 26:5

    This was provided to show that God's laws were given by the spoken Word of God before the written Word of God and to show that God's people knew about God's laws were before Sinai including the sin offereings or burnt offereing reguired for the forgiveness of sin *Genesis 22:3-13.

    A burn't offering is a voluntarty freewill offering of dedication and what you leave out are for the cleansing of sin..

    “He shall lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him. Then he shall kill the bull before the Lord” (Leviticus 1:4–5).

    According to God's Word sin is the transgression of God's LAW *1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11. Burnt offerings under the old Covenant are for both dedication and for cleansing of sin (atonement). These of course are shadow laws pointint to JESUS as our true sacrifice for sin *John 1:29; Hebrews 10:1-10

    As posted earlier your argument is one of silence as there is no scripture that says God's people by the spoken word of God did not know about or follow God's laws. Yet it is the word of God alone (not mine that says God's people before Exodus knew about God's laws and followed them *GENESIS 26:5; GENESIS 22:3-13 if they did not know what sin was there was no reason to have sin offerings.

    The knowledge of sin for God's people by the spoken Word of God before Exodus is also shown in GENESIS through Joseph...

    Genesis 39:7-9
    7, And it came to pass after these things, that his master's wife cast her eyes upon Joseph; and she said, Lie with me.
    8, But he refused, and said unto his master's wife, Behold, my master wotteth not what is with me in the house, and he hath committed all that he hath to my hand;
    9, There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back anything from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?

    If Joseph did NOT know God’s LAW then how did he know he was SINNING against God by committing adultery with Potifer’s wife?

    ...........

    CONCLUSION: SIN existed BEFORE Mt Sinai, SIN is disobeying God's WORD and breaking his law (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; James 2:9-11). Joseph knew that to commit ADULTERY (7th Commandment; Exodus 20:14) was SIN against God and refused not to SIN.

    ..........

    Finally your claims to Romans 14 only show your reading into the scriptures something that they do not say. Where in Romans 14 does it say that it is talking about God's 4th commandment Sabbath? It doesn't. Happy to provide a detail look at Romans 14 showing all context if you like? Just let me know.

    The scriptures are talking about food connected to days (eating and not eating (fasting) on days men esteem over other days. Not what days God esteems and judging others.

    The things that men esteem are an abomination in God's eyes.

    LUKE 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God

    There is no mention in all of ROMANS 14 of God's 4th commandment or any of God's 10 commandments. Your reading into the scriptures something it is not talking about.
     
    #251 3rdAngel, Nov 6, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
  12. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Lots of typos.
    Kinda funny because the church is very independent not Catholic or Protestant
    We do not adhere with Western philosophy be it European or American
    Our leaders do not develop dogmas but rather the doctrines are derived entirely from the Bible
    Iglesia Ni Cristo emerged in the Philippines in 1914 during the out break of WW 1

    So how do you people observe Sabbath?
    Can you describe it hour after hour, your Sabbath day?
    Let us start with 0000 to 2400 hrs of the Saturday
     
  13. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Could you describe it hour after hour? Describing your activities on the Sabbath?

    Friday
    1200 hrs - We....

    to

    Saturday
    1200 hrs - We....
     
  14. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    Is the exact number extremely important to her argument?

    Again, is the particular number extremely important?

    Bani, is the Arabic word for "children of". The correct word is "ben". You may want to edit that small detail.

    All of these points don't appear to be particularly relevant to the argument. All of these listings agree that there is significantly more than 10 with the overwhelming majority overlapping with each other.

    This citation is coming from some crackpot author that has posted here as well, who believe she's found the "true" order of letters and gematria. She's wrong, so this entire citation is as well.

    The word dvr does not mean commandment or promise. It just means "thing" or "spoken [thing]". The relation to the as commandments stems from the opening statement of Ex. 20:1 and it's paraphrase in Deut. 10:4 that G-d spoke them. And that's something you find in virtually every other "commandment" G-d gives to Moses and/or Aaron as well.

    Your extrapolation is conjecture. If nothing further was added to the Law, then the words "he added no more" should be found after the word "These words". Rather, it appears to be saying that He added no more out of the midst of the fire of the cloud and of the thick darkness with a great voice. Implying that He added more that were not under these conditions.

    The phrase "Ten Commandments" does not exist in the Tanach. As noted above, they're simply called "Ten Things". These things may be commandments, but their limitation as such is brought on by your naming them as such.

    This is your interpretation. The other interpretation is that it means inside the ark, to the side (as opposed to the center).

    You are again using your name for what's written on the Tablets and conflating them with the actual word commandment when used in the Tanach. Since the "Ten Commandments" aren't actually called commandments, David must not be talking about them in particular.

    He did stop. Isaiah 8:20 does not appear to contradict that.

    There is a difference between these words, but they all fall under the umbrella term "commandments" because they are all things that G-d commanded, regardless of the particular form of legislation the commandment takes.
     
    #254 Tumah, Nov 6, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
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  15. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Sadly that would have to be one of the weakest rebuttals to scripture evidence I have seen and is simply your words denying God's. Anyhow I guess it has given you something to think about of you would not have even bothered. o_O

    May you receive God's Word and be blessed.
     
    #255 3rdAngel, Nov 6, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
  16. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    I'm pretty sure that the weakest rebuttal, is one where someone simply makes an assertion without any evidence at all...
     
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  17. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    True, thankyou for agreeing with me. The other person you were responding to provided evidence for his post backed in scripture. You simply denied it with your own words when it was written in the very scriptures you were quoting from without supplying any evidence to show why you disagree. Anyhow no worries, each to their own and thankyou for sharing.
     
  18. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    And I explained why the poster's "evidence" was in fact not evidence at all.
    Can you provide an example of where I've done this?
     
  19. Rival

    Rival Veteran Member
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    *Wakes up, checks phone. Sees Tum winning argument.*

    Aw yeah.

    *Rates posts, turns over and goes back to sleep.*
     
  20. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2019
    Messages:
    2,781
    Ratings:
    +178
    Religion:
    truth
    Absolutely if scripture does not count :confused:
     
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