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Coca Cola implements training for employees to be less white

Discussion in 'North American Politics' started by Stevicus, Feb 21, 2021.

  1. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    I'm not sure that either would apply. These are the two main definitions from Webster's:

    Racism | Definition of Racism by Merriam-Webster (merriam-webster.com)

    The first definition indicates "a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities." Anyone can have this specific belief, yet it might manifest in different ways. I remember @Audie would sometimes speak of the "White Liberal Savior Industrial Complex," somewhat jokingly, but I think most of us here knew what she was talking about. There's a certain condescension that comes into this. Essentially, this training program is a white person explaining that being "white" amounts to a certain set of behaviors and personality traits. It seems like it's directed towards other whites, but that's not entirely clear. Either way, the author of this training program is, by her own definitions and standards, "acting white" in the process of encouraging others to "be less white."

    Thinking on that, it's not really a double standard, but the same standard, and that's the problem. The bottom line is that the same structure (as you note above regarding "structural racism") is still intact and operating. The way our society has dealt with racism has been mainly at a surface level, focusing on the superficial and symbolic. As you say, it comes down to saying certain words and phrases, and if someone says the wrong thing, then their career and reputation go straight into the toilet. But the structure still remains. Nobody wants to change the structure. Nobody wants to rock the boat.
     
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  2. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue The gentle embrace of twilight has become my guide

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    It could be viewed that way.

    Imagine if people encourage blacks to be less black and more white.

    The uproar would be deafening.
     
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  3. Kooky

    Kooky Freedom from Sanity

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    I don't find dictionary definitions a particularly sensible usage when discussing academic terms.

    But didn't you just brand that exact language you're using here as racist, and therefore presumably not fit for a proper discussion? If we are unable to talk about White behavior without being racist, then criticizing the presentation on the grounds of including too much White behavior seems just as problematic.

    But that's not what most of the criticism was about. The main criticism in this thread was not that this presentation didn't go far enough, but that it went too far and became "racist" - presumably, by pointing out certain structural problems as "White".
     
  4. Kooky

    Kooky Freedom from Sanity

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    But we just established that most White people wouldn't see stereotyping as racist when directed against Black people. Since so many people here seem to be keen to play the "if you insert 'Black' here, it sounds racist, therefore this is racist" argument, they should recognize that this cuts both ways. If stereotyping people isn't racist in general, then stereotyping White people shouldn't be called 'racist'.

    EDIT: By the way, I find it interesting that you are comparing the treatment of Black people by White liberals with Jews, because in Europe, antisemitism is an endemic problem, but the education systems also consider it a worthy task to educate people on its horrors and worst examples to a degree that would probably look alien to people growing up in the American education system.
     
  5. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    At least it's a good place to start if defining a term becomes relevant.

    I'm not sure what you mean by this question. Can you elaborate?

    The point is, there really is no such thing as "white behavior," just as there is no such thing as "black behavior." If people want to suggest that such things do exist, then that may be taking a step backward and could lead to more people believing in racist ideas.

    That wasn't really my criticism. My point was that it's hypocritical for wealthy, upper class whites to design a training program and essentially say to the lower class whites, "Racism is all your fault," while implying that wealthy whites are blameless. They're saying that upper class whites are more enlightened, even to the point of criticizing people of color who don't go along with white, upper class liberals who claim to know what's best for all. Remember when Biden said to black voters, "If you don't vote for me, you ain't black." Is there any white person who is more arrogant, condescending, and presumptuous than that?
     
  6. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    So? To wrongs don't make a right.
    It stems from how Evangelical Protestants tent to view and think about the Jews. It's of in a patronizing, "we know better" sort of way, but also in a way that elevates them to unreasonably absurd heights because they are allegedly gods chosen people.
    With PC libs, we see much of the same attitudes and beliefs directed towards black people. This includes the patronizing, we know better, and trying to put them up on a pedestal as if they are only ones who suffered slavery and other severe misdeeds at the hands of others here. Black loves matter to them the same way Jewish lives matter to Fundamentalist Protestants. They really just don't other than as a token gesture.
     
  7. Kooky

    Kooky Freedom from Sanity

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    If singling out or stereotyping Whites in any context amounts to racism, then we can't exactly talk about White Liberal Savior Industrial Complex without being racist, can we? We can't criticise the practice of mentioning race as racist on one hand, and then turn around and talk about White condescension or White this or that as if it didn't completely undermine your point. In fact, we probably can't talk about racist beliefs practices that are limited to a particular ethnic group at all.


    Do you believe there are phenomena such as White Supremacy ideology, or White racism against Black people?
    Are we allowed to talk about these and frame them as issues that are limited to particular social groups, or would that already constitute racism against White people?


    Are you privy to a source that has not been shared on this forum? What I've perused here simply does not match your descriptions.

    Also, since when did this become a discussion on Joe Biden? I'm faily sure that Biden had no particular influence on Coca Cola's campaign, let alone its business and employment practice, so I don't really see a point in bringing him up in a discussion that has absolutely nothing at all to do with the office of the POTUS.
     
  8. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    Do you even know what my point was? You sound like you're just being contrary for the sake of being contrary, without really addressing much of anything.

    Yes, I do believe that these phenomena exist.

    Sure, we're allowed to talk about them. That's what we're doing here.

    Not that I'm aware of.

    My descriptions of what?

    I was just using an example, which was recent and relatively well-publicized.
     
  9. Kooky

    Kooky Freedom from Sanity

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    I'm sorry but I really couldn't keep track of what each individual poster had been argueing up to that point given that the arguments fielded were so contradictory and incoherent to begin with. You were talking about a Liberal White Savior Complex in the same breath as you were agreeing with the others who argued that calling out certain sets of behaviors as "White" was racist.

    So just to get this straight, you argue that it's not racist to talk about problematic behavior that originates predominantly in White people, and mention that it is predominantly by White people? But you also argue that it's racist to call something "White behavior"?

    In other words, we are back to debating racism as limited hyper-rudeness, rather than adressing the elephant of structural and institutional racism?
     
  10. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough, which can sometimes happen in an online forum.

    I think others in this thread may have been calling it out as a double standard. Reverse racism is very much a thing in our society, although it can be problematic when trying to discuss it. However, that wasn't exactly the same point I was making. I was saying that by categorizing any race and ascribing certain sets of behaviors and characteristics to them, it essentially categorizes every race by default.

    I had earlier referred to a poster who apparently isn't posting here anymore. She happens to be Chinese, and she was the one who came up with the White Liberal Savior Industrial Complex - obviously as a joke. I don't think she was referring to all whites, only white liberals who fall into that category. So, in that sense, it wasn't really racist, since it wasn't directed at all whites, only those of a certain political persuasion. I only brought it up because the author of the training program appeared to the fall into the same general category.

    How did you formulate the premises of these questions? Just because I said that White Supremacy exists and that there has been racism against Black people?

    Of course White Supremacy exists and has existed for centuries. But it's not a "white behavior." It's a political philosophy - an ideology formulated by governments, politicians, and other leaders in society. It's not something that whites just took to naturally, as if it's some kind of inborn "behavior" which is common to everyone who is classified as "white." White Supremacy wasn't something that "just happened." It was caused. It was brought about intentionally, mainly by the early colonial governments operating under British rule in the 17th and most of the 18th century. The primary motive appears to have been greed and expansionism, and it wasn't just directed against Black people, but also Native Americans.

    I think this is pretty much common knowledge. Anyone who has gotten past the third grade would know this basic fact of American history. So, when you ask me if I believe that such phenomena exist, it comes off as slightly insulting. Maybe you didn't intend to come across that way, so I'm not in any way bothered by it. But it makes me wonder if you're interested in a reasonable discussion, or if you're just toying with me.

    I'm not really sure what we're debating here anymore. You've asked a lot of question with faulty premises, but I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at or what your position actually is on the issues under discussion.

    Let me ask you a question: Would you agree that structural and institutional racism must necessarily come from the ruling class, and not from the lower classes?
     
  11. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    Empowering the individual through corporate training has long been a way in which the corporate elites try to have us forget how hurtful the few at the top can be when they make decisions about layoffs. Consider "Who moved my cheese?" as an example.

    However, there is also much that is true in these trainings as otherwise they would cause more apathy.

    Still be less white does not sound like a good way of putting the message across. Rather it is ironic as prejudice often has the message "be less you" embedded in it.

    I think "be more aware and empathetic" would be better start. Talking about being in the majority power group and what that is like independent of racial references might be even better.
     
  12. Watchmen

    Watchmen Well-Known Member
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    Change the first line to, “To be less black....”

    is it offensive now?
     
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  13. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue The gentle embrace of twilight has become my guide

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    Evergreen state college.





    Should have known. Not surprised.
     
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