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Clearly, God wants us to worship Him, but why should we?

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I can think of no motive and that is one reason I believe that those scriptures originated from God through His Messengers.
Humans are selfish. As we say in India, they would not even peess on your finger if it was not for some selfish motive.
but so are other primates and among their habits there is severity
Yes, there is struggle for leadership, that is their rule for society. Probably better for them as it allows the most powerful to be the leader, but not all the time. Only some chimps (perhaps some apes too) are reported to have been rogues.
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
well.....as a rogue theologian.....

I like to think of myself as social
BUT...my fellowman is such an animal
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Definition of bear witness. 1 : to show that something exists or is true —+ to His success bears witness to the value of hard work. Rising ticket sales bear witness to the band's popularity.

Bear Witness | Definition of Bear Witness by Merriam-Webster
How can you show if something is true? By providing evidence. Yes, ticket sales are indicative of popularity but of nothing else. Popularity is not wisdom. Even standup comedies are popular. What evidence do these self-appointed or supposed prophets / sons / messengers / manifestations / mahdis show to establish God or Allah, or their mission, other than talk? As if talk was the evidence!
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Here, Bahaollah is talking like a tyrant and overlord. Calls his followers 'my servants'.
When Baha'u'llah wrote "O My servants!" He was not referring to any servants of His because Baha'u'llah did not consider anyone His Servants. He was speaking as the Voice of God so "My Servants" refers to Baha'is who are God's Servants.

I can certainly understand how this could be confusing.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Humans are selfish. As we say in India, they would not even peess on your finger if it was not for some selfish motive.
Yes, ordinary humans are very selfish, but Messengers of God are not ordinary humans. They have a dual nature; one nature is human and the other nature is divine, and they do what they do for the sake of God, not for themselves.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
How can you show if something is true? By providing evidence. Yes, ticket sales are indicative of popularity but of nothing else. Popularity is not wisdom. Even standup comedies are popular. What evidence do these self-appointed or supposed prophets / sons / messengers / manifestations / mahdis show to establish God or Allah, or their mission, other than talk?
I was not trying to show anything is true. I was simply explaining what I meant by "bear witness."
All true Messengers of God provide evidence in support of their claims.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
well.....as a rogue theologian.....
I like to think of myself as social. BUT...my fellowman is such an animal
Don't worry. A few like them do not harm the interest of the society. They can actually trigger better responses.
I was not trying to show anything is true. I was simply explaining what I meant by "bear witness."
All true Messengers of God provide evidence in support of their claims.
I would say none in the least in for themselves or their Gods and Allahs. Prove me wrong.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
When Baha'u'llah wrote "O My servants!" He was not referring to any servants of His because Baha'u'llah did not consider anyone His Servants. He was speaking as the Voice of God so "My Servants" refers to Baha'is who are God's Servants.
No in this particular statement, he was himself speaking as the master. Allah is mentioned as a third person and I have underlined it. Bahaollah was an ego-bloated person, more so because his equally ignorant Iranian followers accepted him as a messenger of Allah. That is nothing new about that in Abrahamic religions. At that time Bahaollah was active, Indian Muslims were accepting Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as the Mahdi. As reported in Wikipedia, Iran had thousands of these messengers / manifestations / mahdis claimants in jail before the revolution.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
:) I am a Hindu. How can I forget duties and responsibilities (dharma)? Actually we know religion only as 'dharma'. We have no other definition of religion (other than duties). Hindu 'dharma' is in actions, and only later in Gods and Goddesses.Did they ask humans to breed them? We bred them for our own benefit. The dogs to guard over the live-stock and warn us in times of danger. To be in wild was not starvation. Sure, the struggle for life is always there. There are wild dogs and wolves. We enslaved them and threw them bits of left-overs. (I am against having pets).
It was not solely humans that bred them. They themselves participated. They came close for the easy food. This is especially true in the case of cats, where it is more the case that they domesticated us for their use. :)

I'm not sure why you are against having pets. It is a mutual voluntary love relationship. It is healthy, both physically and emotionally, for both the pet and the guardian.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Yes, ordinary humans are very selfish, but Messengers of God are not ordinary humans. They have a dual nature; one nature is human and the other nature is divine, and they do what they do for the sake of God, not for themselves.
Why should we exclude some persons from this general tendency? After all, Bahaollah appointed his son as his successor and his son, his grandson. Bahaollah clearly wanted to perpetuate the rule of his family among Bahais. That his lineage did not survive is another matter. Others (like Mirza Ghulam Ahmad or the Ismailis/Daudis) were more successful. Their line survives and rules.
 
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Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
There are two questions I would like you to answer.

1. Since God is fully self-sufficient and fully self- sustaining, omnipotent and omniscient, God does not need humans for anything, so why does God want us to worship Him?

2. Look at these scriptures from various religions. They all say essentially the same thing. God wants us to worship Him, but why should we? What has God done to deserve our worship?


1. Because God is the provider of life and knows what is best for us. Humans rebelling from God and living independently from him has not turned out to well for us now has it? God knows that. Now you know it.

2. God gave you life. You can be unthankful if you want. But if you were a good person you would thank God for your life, instead of enjoying it and all it has to offer without giving him a second thought. So many today gorge themselves on food, salivating over their favorite meals, without giving a second thought as to why they enjoy the food they eat.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
1. Because God is the provider of life and knows what is best for us. Humans rebelling from God and living independently from him has not turned out to well for us now has it? God knows that. Now you know it.
I already knew all of that, but that still does not answer the specific question I had:
.
Since God is fully self-sufficient and fully self- sustaining, omnipotent and omniscient, God does not need humans for anything, so why does God want us to worship Him?
2. God gave you life. You can be unthankful if you want. But if you were a good person you would thank God for your life, instead of enjoying it and all it has to offer without giving him a second thought. So many today gorge themselves on food, salivating over their favorite meals, without giving a second thought as to why they enjoy the food they eat.
One might thank God if they were grateful to have been born and thankful to be alive, enjoying all that life has to offer, but what if that was not their situation? Do believers ever stop to think about the less fortunate, or do they just blame these people for a situation which is outside of their control?

I sure hope God has more compassion than that.
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
I already knew all of that, but that still does not answer the specific question I had:
.
Since God is fully self-sufficient and fully self- sustaining, omnipotent and omniscient, God does not need humans for anything, so why does God want us to worship Him?

One might thank God if they were grateful to have been born and thankful to be alive, enjoying all that life has to offer, but what if that was not their situation? Do believers ever stop to think about the less fortunate, or do they just blame these people for a situation which is outside of their control?

I sure hope God has more compassion than that.

We all suffer in this unjust world. But even in the worst of circumstances life is beautiful. For example what do you know of me and my life and the suffering I have seen?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I think that knowing God and worshiping God are separate although they are related because first you have to know God and then you worship God for who you know He is. That is exemplified in this Baha'i prayer:

Short Obligatory Prayer

“I bear witness, O my God, that Thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee. I testify, at this moment, to my powerlessness and to Thy might, to my poverty and to Thy wealth.

There is none other God but Thee, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.”

Bahá’u’lláh


However, if one does not believe all the good things scriptures say about God, one might not like God very much so one would probably be hard pressed to worship God.

I think that following God's commandments is a separate matter altogether, although maybe not, because in my religion we are commanded to work for a living and Baha'u'llah also wrote that work done in the spirit of service to God is equivalent to worship.
In order to bear witness to God, how would you personally describe him? And from where do you get your information about Him?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Thanks for that information about Hinduism and the scriptures. Yes, I know there are many different sects of Hinduism, just as in all the older religions.

You raise a good point. I say that prayer every day and I never thought of that. So, when we say that prayer we are bearing witness before God that that what follows is true -- that God has created us to know Him and to worship Him. That does not require any evidence or proof because it does not involve a court of law.

Definition of bear witness. 1 : to show that something exists or is true —+ to His success bears witness to the value of hard work. Rising ticket sales bear witness to the band's popularity.

Bear Witness | Definition of Bear Witness by Merriam-Webster
So with that in mind, to bear witness to God is also in a sense, worshipping him. Satan the devil did not worship God since he did not bear a truthful witness. Jesus did call false teachers like the devil.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
We all suffer in this unjust world. But even in the worst of circumstances life is beautiful. For example what do you know of me and my life and the suffering I have seen?
All humans suffer, but clearly, everyone does not suffer equally.
Life is beautiful for you, but you cannot speak for anyone except yourself.

No, I do not know you or your life and you do not know me and my life, but that does not really matter because we all have different capacities to endure suffering and only God knows what those capacities are. That is why only God can judge anyone.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
In order to bear witness to God, how would you personally describe him? And from where do you get your information about Him?
I would describe God in many ways, as God has many attributes. Among these attributes are: Eternal, Holy, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, Sovereign, Righteous, Immaterial, Benevolent, Compassionate, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Forgiving, and Patient.

I get my information about God from the Bible and the Writings of Baha'u'llah.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So with that in mind, to bear witness to God is also in a sense, worshipping him. Satan the devil did not worship God since he did not bear a truthful witness. Jesus did call false teachers like the devil.
Yes, I believe that bearing witness to God is also worshiping Him.
 
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