Clearly, God wants us to worship Him, but why should we?

[A Vestigial Mote]

Thanks for your opinion. I have a different opinion and it is based upon what 'I consider' logic and common sense.

Why would other people want me to worship God? What would be in it for them, what would be their motive?
I can think of no motive and that is one reason I believe that those scriptures originated from God through His Messengers. Moreover, I can think of no motive for writing anything that is written in those scriptures, except that God was behind them in some way.

I can think of PLENTY of motives. Motives, in fact, that have even been proved (or at least very, VERY strongly suspected) even by many Christians themselves. For example, we've all heard tell of the pastors of some of these mega-churches, who ride around in sports cars - their motivation for getting you to believe may not have started out as an attempt to make money and make their lives more comfortable or exciting, but once they got a taste of how easy it was to get people to believe and get them to start giving money... well... we all have opinions about those types I am sure. They convince you to "worship God" so that you feel that giving to God is some glorious act... but the money never reaches God, now does it?

Another, even more sordid motivation - to get close to and gain the trust of children in order to be able to have their way with them sexually. In this instance, I have to guess it is entirely in the pedophilial priest's best interest that the child believe in God wholeheartedly, and believe that God is everything good, and would never want anything bad to happen to the child... and that is how I would guess that they can convince the child that what they are doing is not something as bad as it likely feels to the child.

Other reasons many people might want others to believe:

1. They want the world to conform to their ways of doing things, or their ways of thinking. I would argue that EVERYONE feels this way at times - but with "God" in your corner, you actually have means to achieving it with a "reason" behind your actions that you can readily share with others. Get them to believe, and they are more likely to "fall in line."
2. They don't want to be "wrong," and their religion is what feels "right" to them. So they may try to convince others to believe just so that they don't have to feel they are alone in their opinions and beliefs.
3. Their scriptures inform them that it is their duty to get others to believe and join in worship. This one is ENTIRELY self-explanatory, and entirely true of The Bible.
4. They truly believe this stuff, and they think they are actually helping people by convincing them that they are wrong and should instead believe as they do in order to be "right." And "worshipping God" just comes along with the package. Talking about "worship" and going that far with your mindset about it all is a tried and true method of discerning who is a "true believer." In other words - it helps when you can get a person all the way to worship so that you can be sure they are just as nutty as you are. And then you have them.

What would have been the motives for the Messengers of God to lay their lives on the line and suffer persecution throughout their entire lives, if they were not sent by God? Mind you, none of them were wealthy and they all knew they were going to die, so fame would not matter after they were dead. I just try to be logical.

I have no doubt that many of those who laid their lives down, or suffered tremendously were of the red category of people above. They were the true "believers." Unfortunately, no matter how hard you believe a thing, it doesn't make it true. You could potentially lay down your life for a complete and utter lie, and think yourself wonderfully righteous and dignified for doing so.

I do not believe that God can talk about Himself, except through His Messengers, because God is not a man. I just try to be logical.

And I see the world around me as it appears to stand, without any Gods, only a bunch of people trying to tell me a bunch of things... sometimes in conflict with each other and sometimes even in conflict with themselves. Funny how some religions make a big deal out of telling everyone that human beings are these terribly flawed/fallible creatures... but then turn on a dime directly into shouting the praises of entirely human "messengers." Such a joke.

 

[Trailblazer]

Not all of us believe in scriptures. Not all of us believe in "God".

A better question is why we worship. The word is derived from "worth" — the noun meant the quality of being worthy, as in Chaucer's "A man of worship and honour". So to worship a god is convey the fact that we honour them; it's showing respect to a superior and gratitude for benefits received from them; to worship is part of justice. Thomas Aquinas wrote "Again, honour is due to someone under the aspect of excellence … in human affairs we see that different honour is due to different personal excellences, one kind of honour to a father, another to the king, and so on." (Summa 2.2 Q81)

Thanks, that helped me a lot.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Just think, but conversely we have to think of what would have happened without Christianity.

That, I'm afraid, you can never know.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't read here, that "God wants us to worship Him".
God shows how to ''know Him completely, free from doubt". Just a friendly advice/gift. Free to take or leave; no hurt feelings...Love only.

No, I do not see that either.
The Abrahamic religions definitely have a requirement.

 

[Trailblazer]

That, I'm afraid, you can never know.

None of us can ever know.

 

[Trailblazer]

When we encounter God, or even just a reflection of God as in the spectacular beauty and order of nature, we cannot be but moved to worship. It is simply a natural thing.

But only if we SEE God in those... Not everyone sees -- or believes -- the same things.

 

[Trailblazer]

I can think of PLENTY of motives. Motives, in fact, that have even been proved (or at least very, VERY strongly suspected) even by many Christians themselves. For example, we've all heard tell of the pastors of some of these mega-churches, who ride around in sports cars - their motivation for getting you to believe may not have started out as an attempt to make money and make their lives more comfortable or exciting, but once they got a taste of how easy it was to get people to believe and get them to start giving money... well... we all have opinions about those types I am sure. They convince you to "worship God" so that you feel that giving to God is some glorious act... but the money never reaches God, now does it?

Another, even more sordid motivation - to get close to and gain the trust of children in order to be able to have their way with them sexually. In this instance, I have to guess it is entirely in the pedophilial priest's best interest that the child believe in God wholeheartedly, and believe that God is everything good, and would never want anything bad to happen to the child... and that is how I would guess that they can convince the child that what they are doing is not something as bad as it likely feels to the child.

Those are valid reasons as to why religious leaders would want people to worship God, but it does not explain why Messengers of God would exhort us to worship God.

Other reasons many people might want others to believe:

1. They want the world to conform to their ways of doing things, or their ways of thinking. I would argue that EVERYONE feels this way at times - but with "God" in your corner, you actually have means to achieving it with a "reason" behind your actions that you can readily share with others. Get them to believe, and they are more likely to "fall in line."
2. They don't want to be "wrong," and their religion is what feels "right" to them. So they may try to convince others to believe just so that they don't have to feel they are alone in their opinions and beliefs.
3. Their scriptures inform them that it is their duty to get others to believe and join in worship. This one is ENTIRELY self-explanatory, and entirely true of The Bible.
4. They truly believe this stuff, and they think they are actually helping people by convincing them that they are wrong and should instead believe as they do in order to be "right." And "worshipping God" just comes along with the package. Talking about "worship" and going that far with your mindset about it all is a tried and true method of discerning who is a "true believer." In other words - it helps when you can get a person all the way to worship so that you can be sure they are just as nutty as you are. And then you have them.

Again, these explain why people might want other people to worship God, but they do not explain why the Messengers would tell us to do so.

I have no doubt that many of those who laid their lives down, or suffered tremendously were of the red category of people above. They were the true "believers." Unfortunately, no matter how hard you believe a thing, it doesn't make it true. You could potentially lay down your life for a complete and utter lie, and think yourself wonderfully righteous and dignified for doing so.

Oh I see, you were getting around to that. So let's look at that...

They truly believe this stuff, and they think they are actually helping people by convincing them that they are wrong and should instead believe as they do in order to be "right."

I agree that no matter how hard you believe a thing, it doesn't make it true. I agree that a Messenger could potentially lay down his life for a complete and utter lie, and think of himself as wonderfully righteous and dignified for doing so. However, that does not mean it is a lie; it could be true or false, logically speaking.

And you still have not given me any motives. You explained why religious leaders or other people would tell us to worship God and that made sense, because you gave motives that made sense. But why would a man claiming to be a Messenger of God suffer and sacrifice his life for what He claimed was the Cause of God and get nothing in return for his suffering and sacrifice?

And I see the world around me as it appears to stand, without any Gods, only a bunch of people trying to tell me a bunch of things... sometimes in conflict with each other and sometimes even in conflict with themselves. Funny how some religions make a big deal out of telling everyone that human beings are these terribly flawed/fallible creatures... but then turn on a dime directly into shouting the praises of entirely human "messengers." Such a joke.

It would indeed be a joke if they were entirely human, but the caveat is that the Messengers are not "entirely human."

According to my beliefs, a Messenger of God is not an ordinary man... If He was, there would be absolutely no reason to believe Him at all. My belief is that Messengers of God, what Baha’is normally refer to as Manifestations of God, possess two stations: one is the physical station pertaining to the world of matter, and the other is the spiritual station, born of the substance of God. In other words, one station is that of a human being, and one, of the Divine Reality. It is because they possess both a human and a divine station that they can act as "mediators" between God and man. There is a lot more to this, but since you are an atheist I won't bore you with all of my beliefs.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

But only if we SEE God in those... Not everyone sees -- or believes -- the same things.

My statement was based on the assumption that we perceived what we sensed to be God.

 

[Trailblazer]

My statement was based on the assumption that we perceived what we sensed to be God.

Okay, fair enough.

But if one is going to take that to the hilt, I wonder why believers do not see the bad things in this world as "of God."
I mean if God created everything, then.certain logical conclusions follow....Fair is fair.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Okay, fair enough.

But if one is going to take that to the hilt, I wonder why believers do not see the bad things in this world as "of God."
I mean if God created everything, then.certain logical conclusions follow....Fair is fair.

I understand. I have wrestled with this all my life.

But lately I have begun to intuit a different answer. I see that most of the good is only possible because of what we perceive as bad. For example, a tornado is only possible because we have heat, cold, and water. For God to have never created hurricanes would mean that he would have to not created the laws of physics that make hot, cold, and water possible. That would undo the universe as we know it.

A lot of my thinking is about the afterlife, aka the world to come. It is supposed to be a heavenly existed where we don't sin, where the wolf lies down with the lamb, etc. But without the possibility of mistakes, there can be no possibility of growth. It would be static. An eternity of stasis would eventually seem like hell. For it to matter, to have meaning, there would have to be an end to it, and the possibility of error and so growth.

But that is THIS world. IOW I have begun to wonder if THIS isn't the best of all possible worlds.

I am hanging on to the idea that the two improvements I would make are:
1. That the bad things that happen would be proportional to the bad things one does.
2. That we ourselves could choose when we end our lives, that we'd decide when we are ready.

But who knows what I'll think in another 50 or so years?

 

[Bird123]

If that were true, that would mean all the religions from which I quoted scriptures are based upon a lie.
The hundred-dollar question is why you believe you know more about God than all the major religions.

That said, I do not believe that God needs worship, and God does not even want worship, not for Himself.

It is not a lie. It is a Belief. The term lie implies they know the truth.

Many people recite beliefs so long that they convince themselves they have the truth. Example: Which freezes quicker, cold water or hot water? Some people will tell you hot water freezes quicker. They say it draws somehow. People repeat it so often they do like religion believe and accept.

So which freezes quicker cold or hot water?? Do you know what happens when this is dropped at my door? I do not choose. I discover the answer. Beliefs merely point a direction by which one can journey to Discover the real truth.

Discovery takes work but the results are so much better. I got a commercial ice machine. I put cold water in one tray, hot in the next. Which froze first? The cold water froze first but not by much. To check all variables I swapped trays. I now put the cold water in that hot water tray on the last run and put the hot in the cold water tray last run. Which froze quicker? The cold water once again froze quicker.

Are all those people telling me hot water freezes quicker lying? Should anyone blindly believe them or anyone?? That depends on whether you want the Real Truth.

So now you know a little about me. What happens when they drop a bunch of religious beliefs at my door that to me do not add up? Do I accept and blindly believe their hot water freezes quicker? No, I do as I did with the freezing water ordeal. I work at Discovery no matter how long it would take or what effort it would take.

Why do I believe I know more than all those religions? I have bumped into God and who they describe is more mankind than God.

That's what I see. It's very clear.

 

[Aman Uensis]

Why should I believe God loves me or others, just because scriptures say so?
I am not that easily convinced.
Let's see some real evidence.

This is a fair point that nobody seems able to answer. I was recently criticized for my writings from a gentleman, who had read these writings, said I was ignoring all reputable theology about God's nature. But what, precisely, is reputable theology?

I never quite understood how some faithful could demand proof of, say, evolution, but could never render the same burden of proof for God. But neither could I reconcile science's claims that there could be no God when even scientific fact does not constitute an absolute truth. It's like two sides playing the same game by different rules.

 

[Trailblazer]

I understand. I have wrestled with this all my life.

But lately I have begun to intuit a different answer. I see that most of the good is only possible because of what we perceive as bad. For example, a tornado is only possible because we have heat, cold, and water. For God to have never created hurricanes would mean that he would have to not created the laws of physics that make hot, cold, and water possible. That would undo the universe as we know it.

I understand your point about the laws of physics. This world is a package deal.

Okay, you have my undivided attention, because as luck, or God, would have it, as of now I only have one other post left to answer on this forum, which is indeed a rarity.

I appreciate your reply, as I do all your replies, because I need all the help I can get in the God department; but it has to be from someone who has actually thought it through, and looked at the other side, and from what I have seen, most believers have not thought it through. This world and God are only good, period, but they cannot say why.

The goodness and thus the worthiness of God is a very important subject and it is definitely tied in with my second question in the OP.

A lot of my thinking is about the afterlife, aka the world to come. It is supposed to be a heavenly existed where we don't sin, where the wolf lies down with the lamb, etc. But without the possibility of mistakes, there can be no possibility of growth. It would be static. An eternity of stasis would eventually seem like hell. For it to matter, to have meaning, there would have to be an end to it, and the possibility of error and so growth.

Okay, since you mentioned the afterlife, I will explain what I believe it will be, according to my understanding of my scriptures. It is an interesting subject, and a very important one. The afterlife is largely unknown to us and there are reasons for that but I do not want to get into that right now. Suffice to say:

“As to those that have tasted of the fruit of man’s earthly existence, which is the recognition of the one true God, exalted be His glory, their life hereafter is such as We are unable to describe. The knowledge thereof is with God, alone, the Lord of all worlds.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 345-346

I believe that the wolf will lay down with the lamb eventually, but I believe that verse applies to this life, not the afterlife.

I do not believe there will be any more 'sinning' in the afterlife simply because there will be no opportunity to sin, since the afterlife is a spiritual world and sins can only be committed in a physical world.

I do not believe there will be the possibility of making mistakes because we will no longer have free will. One Baha'i belief is that there will not be any retrogression in the spiritual world, only progression. So there will be no stasis because we will be in continual movement towards God, however that happens, which is a mystery.

The hundred-dollar question is how we will progress without free will, without making choices and mistakes and learning from them. What it says in our writings is that we will progress by the mercy of God, prayers of others, and good works done on earth in our name. This drives home a very important point, and explains why this earthly life is so important, since what we become here is essentially what we will be when we enter the spiritual world. No doubt that is why the scriptures of various religions exhort us to do good deeds and improve our character.

At the risk of having this sound like a sermon, this is one of my favorite scriptures that says what I am trying to say:

40: O MY SERVANT! Free thyself from the fetters of this world, and loose thy soul from the prison of self. Seize thy chance, for it will come to thee no more. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 36

But that is THIS world. IOW I have begun to wonder if THIS isn't the best of all possible worlds.

If this world was 'the best of all possible worlds' I believe that God would have to be terribly unjust. Just think of all the suffering in this world and how unevenly distributed it is. I could never believe in God at all without my belief in the afterlife, the Baha'i version.

“Death proffereth unto every confident believer the cup that is life indeed. It bestoweth joy, and is the bearer of gladness. It conferreth the gift of everlasting life.” Gleanings, p. 345

So what I worry most about is being a 'confident believer' because I am not sure exactly what that means but I suspect it does not mean still being angry at God when I depart out of this mortal realm if existence. There are certain things I still do not forgive God for and I get all messed up in my head when Christians say that I am the one who needs to be forgiven. What did I do? I did not break any of God's Laws and I steer clear of other people so as not to hurt anyone. Will I be forgiven if I am still angry at God when I die? Only God knows.

I am hanging on to the idea that the two improvements I would make are:
1. That the bad things that happen would be proportional to the bad things one does.
2. That we ourselves could choose when we end our lives, that we'd decide when we are ready.

But who knows what I'll think in another 50 or so years?

The bad things that happen being proportional to the bad things one does sounds like karma. I am not sure that plays out in this world but I believe it will all be leveled out in the spiritual world, since I believe we reap what we sow.

I believe we can choose when we end our lives but I also believe there are consequences, although what those would be would depend upon the situation. Another one of my favorite passages addresses that:
Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, pp. 200-201

In another 50 years or so you will probably be in the spiritual world, and I hope to see you there.

 

[Trailblazer]

This is a fair point that nobody seems able to answer. I was recently criticized for my writings from a gentleman, who had read these writings, said I was ignoring all reputable theology about God's nature. But what, precisely, is reputable theology?

I never quite understood how some faithful could demand proof of, say, evolution, but could never render the same burden of proof for God. But neither could I reconcile science's claims that there could be no God when even scientific fact does not constitute an absolute truth. It's like two sides playing the same game by different rules.

I do not believe that theology about God's nature represents God's nature. The closest we have to knowing about God's nature is scriptures. Theology is simply what some religious leaders decided those scriptures mean, and that is subject to error.

Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt that God exists, I am just not so certain of the 'attributes' some religious believers use to describe God, namely that God is All-Loving. It is difficult to believe that simply because it is written in scriptures, when I see no actual evidence of that in the world.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why do I believe I know more than all those religions? I have bumped into God and who they describe is more mankind than God.

When and where did you 'bump into God?'
I sure would like to know....

 

[Thief]

I believe in existence of Brahman, which is not a God. For me the Krishna of BhagawadGita is the Brahman

I get a picture in mind.....the Force be with you

any similarity?

 

[Aupmanyav]

What is freedom? Human beings are best free when we accept responsibility and boundaries. Total lack of these things results in a chaotic life that ultimately enslaves us.

I am a Hindu. How can I forget duties and responsibilities (dharma)? Actually we know religion only as 'dharma'. We have no other definition of religion (other than duties). Hindu 'dharma' is in actions, and only later in Gods and Goddesses.

For cat and dogs, etc., being a pet is what they have evolved to be, what they are bred to be. They are no longer wild. To be wild is to face starvation. They need human beings not only for food, but for affection and attention. Yes, even cats!

Did they ask humans to breed them? We bred them for our own benefit. The dogs to guard over the live-stock and warn us in times of danger. To be in wild was not starvation. Sure, the struggle for life is always there. There are wild dogs and wolves. We enslaved them and threw them bits of left-overs. (I am against having pets).

 

[Thief]

I am a Hindu. How can I forget duties and responsibilities (dharma)? Actually we know religion only as 'dharma'. We have no other definition of religion (other than duties).

are these duties dealt by self revelation?
by scripture?
or a Greater Spirit directly speaking?

 

[Aupmanyav]

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.”

Here, Bahaollah is talking like a tyrant and overlord. Calls his followers 'my servants'. I would hate to be any one's servant, especially if it was an uneducated ego-bloated Iranian preacher of 19th Century. I am sure, those who died by Corona virus are enjoying Allah's hospitality.

are these duties dealt by self revelation? by scripture? or a Greater Spirit directly speaking?

Duties are decided by the society at any point of time. We are social animals.

 

[Thief]

We are social animals.

but so are other primates
and among their habits there is severity

I prefer to think we can be......more than ape

there's a thread about that somewhere
see if your search can find it