Clearly, God wants us to worship Him, but why should we?

[Trailblazer]

Well it sure isn't god saying so. Take a closer look at who's saying we should worship god. It certainly isn't god. Of course if there's a verse wherein god says he wants to be worshiped I'll withdraw my observation.

Okay, now I understand, but God only speaks through His Messengers so you are not going to get it directly from God.

Lack of reason to. In fact, considering his powers there's plenty of reason not to.
He

Condones slavery
Killed innocent babies and women
Supposedly gave mankind free will and then when they didn't exercise it as he demanded it he killed them all
Oversaw the creation of the Bible, a text so riddled with faults that it's led people to his Hell
Created original sin ensuring that billions of people would suffer their entire lives for the act of two very naive people.
​

I would not want to worship God either if I believed God did all that stuff.
It's hard enough as it is.

It's saying that someone else is telling people to worship god. God isn't telling anyone anything..

And I am saying that God is not going to tell anyone anything, not directly.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why? Have you asked the Savior to reveal His love to you?

No, because I do not think that would ever happen.
People can imagine anything, but that does not mean it is really happening.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

There are two questions I would like you to answer.

1. Since God is fully self-sufficient and fully self- sustaining, omnipotent and omniscient, God does not need humans for anything, so why does God want us to worship Him?

2. Look at these scriptures from various religions. They all say essentially the same thing. God wants us to worship Him, but why should we? What has God done to deserve our worship?

Bhagavad Gita 7.1 The Supreme Lord said: Now listen, O Arjun, how, with the mind attached exclusively to me, and surrendering to me through the practice of bhakti yog, you can know me completely, free from doubt.

Exodus 20:1-3 And God spoke all these words, saying, “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. “You shall have no other gods before me.”

Matthew 4:10 Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.’”

“Indeed, I am Allah. There is no God except Me, so worship Me and establish prayer for My remembrance.” (Quran 20:14)

“VERILY I am God, no God is there but Me, and aught except Me is but My creation. Say, worship Me then, O ye, My creatures.” Selections From the Writings of the Báb, p. 158

“O kings of the earth! He Who is the sovereign Lord of all is come. The Kingdom is God’s, the omnipotent Protector, the Self-Subsisting. Worship none but God, and, with radiant hearts, lift up your faces unto your Lord, the Lord of all names. This is a Revelation to which whatever ye possess can never be compared, could ye but know it.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 210

The title of your thread is a dead giveaway. There is an unstated, but unmistakably there, inference that ought to make the thread title read: "Because scripture is certain to be true, and a description of the will of God, clearly, God wants us to worship Him..."

But what if, just what if, that unstated assumption is simply not true? What is scripture is more about what those who wrote them thought, than what God thinks? Then what?

Why, obviously, all threads such as this are no longer moot -- they are arguments with no reason for existence.

 

[Vinayaka]

Why, how very anthropomorphic of him. Wants?

 

[Trailblazer]

The title of your thread is a dead giveaway. There is an unstated, but unmistakably there, inference that ought to make the thread title read: "Because scripture is certain to be true, and a description of the will of God, clearly, God wants us to worship Him..."

But what if, just what if, that unstated assumption is simply not true? What is scripture is more about what those who wrote them thought, than what God thinks? Then what?

That is a logical possibility....
Then all my questions are moot, because we cannot ever know what God wants.

Why, obviously, all threads such as this are no longer moot -- they are arguments with no reason for existence..

The reason the questions were posed is because many people believe in one of those scriptures.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

So far as I understand it, worship (at least some forms of worship) can increase the odds of a person having a mystical experience. If so, that is the only purpose of worship that I can imagine of any use to humans or their gods both. Unless one considers "feeling good" to be a worthwhile purpose. But if that's so, why not just attend a ball game, concert, or movie?

Pick up a paint brush or mold clay pretty much gets to the same mystic feeling.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why, how very anthropomorphic of him. Wants?

I could have said that it is God's Will that we worship Him, but it amounts to the same thing.
Either those scriptures represent God's Will, or not.

 

[Skwim]

Okay, now I understand, but God only speaks through His Messengers so you are not going to get it directly from God.

But god doesn't ONLY speak through his messengers.

Genesis 6:13
13 So God said to Noah, “Everyone has filled the earth with anger and violence. So I will destroy all living things. I will remove them from the earth.

Exodus 3:11-12
11 But Moses said to God, “I am not a great man! How can I be the one to go to Pharaoh and lead the Israelites out of Egypt?”
12 God said, “You can do it because I will be with you. This will be the proof that I am sending you: After you lead the people out of Egypt, you will come and worship me on this mountain.”

Joshua 1:1-2
1 After the death of Moses, the Lord’s disciple, God spoke to Moses’ assistant, whose name was Joshua (the son of Nun), and said to him,
2 “Now that my disciple is dead, you are the new leader of Israel.a]">[

​

I would not want to worship God either if I believed God did all that stuff.

Well, it's right there in the Bible. So why don't you believe it?

And I am saying that God is not going to tell anyone anything, not directly.

As I've shown above, he certainly directly told Noah, Moses, and Joshua some pretty important stuff.

.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

So far as I understand it, worship (at least some forms of worship) can increase the odds of a person having a mystical experience. If so, that is the only purpose of worship that I can imagine of any use to humans or their gods both. Unless one considers "feeling good" to be a worthwhile purpose. But if that's so, why not just attend a ball game, concert, or movie?

Pick up a paint brush or mold clay pretty much gets to the same mystic feeling.

 

[sun rise]

Are you forgetting the non-theists -- including atheists -- who have had mystical experiences? Just curious. Don't want to debate it with you --- at least, not in this thread.

The thread title was about God and worship. Mystical experiences are a different "kettle of fish".

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Because I need evidence to be convinced, experiential evidence, not just what scriptures say.

What do you consider as evidence, though?

Spiritual experiences from god has a clear earthly pattern. I know people like mystical words: consciousness, god, gnosism, so have you, but, when I hear people explain it, it leads to the same human desire: fulfillment, happiness, sustainability, enlightenment, wisdom, love (etc), to things like relationship, reverence, or the need to call something a "god/s" in order to find appreciation and worthiness in life, among other things.

Why do you need a mystic-named experience to find a value or so have you that makes you "feel alive"?

Thank you for the insight comment. I put up a website that I wanted to express more about my experiences and things on but for some reason, I can only express it when I'm talking to others but I look at a blank page when I'm doing it for myself.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

That is a logical possibility....
Then all my questions are moot, because we cannot ever know what God wants.

The reason the questions were posed is because many people believe in one of those scriptures.

And THAT has always been my point, and the point of every other atheist or agnostic you've ever encountered.

And just think, for a moment, how much misunderstanding, how much hate, how many human bonfires, how many religious wars, could have been avoided -- how many "savages" could have been spared the depredations of missionaries.

For me, as a reader of human history, I think the lack of that unwarranted assumption might have been one of the very greatest things to happen to humanity.

 

[Trailblazer]

But god doesn't ONLY speak through his messengers.

Genesis 6:13
13 So God said to Noah, “Everyone has filled the earth with anger and violence. So I will destroy all living things. I will remove them from the earth.

Exodus 3:11-12
11 But Moses said to God, “I am not a great man! How can I be the one to go to Pharaoh and lead the Israelites out of Egypt?”
12 God said, “You can do it because I will be with you. This will be the proof that I am sending you: After you lead the people out of Egypt, you will come and worship me on this mountain.”

Joshua 1:1-2
1 After the death of Moses, the Lord’s disciple, God spoke to Moses’ assistant, whose name was Joshua (the son of Nun), and said to him,
2 “Now that my disciple is dead, you are the new leader of Israel.a]">[​

Well, it's right there in the Bible. So why don't you believe it?

Because I do not believe everything I read, especially if it is in the Bible.
I do believe that God spoke to Noah and Moses, because both of them were Prophets/Messengers, but I believe that because it is in the Baha'i scriptures.

As I've shown above, he certainly directly told Noah, Moses, and Joshua some pretty important stuff..

Noah and Moses for sure, Joshua maybe.

 

[izzy88]

so why does God want us to worship Him?

You're going to get a very diverse set of answers to such a question when you haven't defined terms. The first question you'd need to ask before getting to the "why" is the "what" - what does it actually mean to worship God? We need to figure what exactly we mean by "God" and what exactly we mean by "worship", otherwise everyone's going to be answering different questions because they all likely have different ideas about what these terms mean.

What has God done to deserve our worship?

Setting aside what I just said, if two of God's characteristics are omnibenevolence and being the creator of all that exists - which they classically are - I'd say it's pretty self-evident why God would deserve our worship. If your parents brought you into the world and have been good parents to you, do they not deserve your respect? It's a very similar situation with God.

 

[Unity of Mankind]

So God's goal with us is to make truest friends of us. To stand independently and not as children.

So could you elaborate what you mean by "To stand independently and not as children" insofar as "...God's goal with us..."?

If God is the means by which everything has existence to not depend on God, even for humans, would be logically impossible. In that since humankind would always be as children being led toward self fulfillment. God then would be as is expressed in Baha'i terms "Self-Subsisting" so any relationship we could possibly have with God would not be as equals.

Of course atheists have independently decided that any idea that there is any truth to the existence of a real God is pure illusion which consequently leaves humans completely on their own as individuals and for society. In this regard I like what a German Baha'i, who works as a lawyer in Germany, by the name of Udo Schaefer, wrote in his book and doctoral thesis entitled "the light shineth in darkness" as follows:

"...no one has to steal, no one has to commit adultery, no one has to get drunk, no one has to smoke hashish. The theory which denies all human responsibility, on the assumption that man, bound by society's restrictions and his own impulses has no freedom of action, is the logical consequence of atheism: 'If God does not exist', Dostoevsky makes Ivan Karamozov say, 'then everything is permitted; if there is no God, then everything is indifferent.' Dostoevsky means here that when man is his own law-giver and acknowledges no higher responsibility than the state courts, he can justify any crime." page 39

 

[osgart]

That's true, but how do we know that God deserves this?
It all boils down to what scriptures say about God doesn't it, but why should we believe them?

I have no reason to trust scriptures as being true. Words alone don't do anything for me. I need evidence or irrefutable expressions of what everything means.

I have an independent view on God. I see God as the maximum greatest possible being in terms of morals, and actions, and character. The way I see it is with God you are only going to get what you deserve or what is truly necessary.

Nature tells me a radically different story than God. Still I hold on to the idea that because of the miracle of intelligence and the existence of virtues there is reason to believe in a beyond.

According to nature God has limits and does not seem to be responsible for the behaviour of nature. That's how I see it.

Nature is blind and indifferent for the most part.

To me all powerful and all knowing should solve every problem everywhere. But I don't see that.

 

[Trailblazer]

And THAT has always been my point, and the point of every other atheist or agnostic you've ever encountered.

A point well taken by me because it is a logical possibility.
And even if scriptures are from God, there is still a possibility we misunderstand them.

And just think, for a moment, how much misunderstanding, how much hate, how many human bonfires, how many religious wars, could have been avoided -- how many "savages" could have been spared the depredations of missionaries.

Just think, but conversely we have to think of what would have happened without Christianity.

For me, as a reader of human history, I think the lack of that unwarranted assumption might have been one of the very greatest things to happen to humanity.

Maybe or maybe not. Only God knows.

 

[osgart]

So could you elaborate what you mean by "To stand independently and not as children" insofar as "...God's goal with us..."?

If God is the means by which everything has existence to not depend on God, even for humans, would be logically impossible. In that since humankind would always be as children being led toward self fulfillment. God then would be as is expressed in Baha'i terms "Self-Subsisting" so any relationship we could possibly have with God would not be as equals.

Of course atheists have independently decided that any idea that there is any truth to the existence of a real God is pure illusion which consequently leaves humans completely on their own as individuals and for society. In this regard I like what a German Baha'i, who works as a lawyer in Germany, by the name of Udo Schaefer, wrote in his book and doctoral thesis entitled "the light shineth in darkness" as follows:

"...no one has to steal, no one has to commit adultery, no one has to get drunk, no one has to smoke hashish. The theory which denies all human responsibility, on the assumption that man, bound by society's restrictions and his own impulses has no freedom of action, is the logical consequence of atheism: 'If God does not exist', Dostoevsky makes Ivan Karamozov say, 'then everything is permitted; if there is no God, then everything is indifferent.' Dostoevsky means here that when man is his own law-giver and acknowledges no higher responsibility than the state courts, he can justify any crime." page 39

I mean that God aims to create equals. Nothing less then that. If God is God.

Whether there is a God or not, for a quality of life to happen you need virtues, you need conscience, and you need to act on those things or everything goes bankrupt. Without love there is doom to be paid. So I see a truth to freedom and for love. Yet God is not at all clear to me that God exists.

God may well be the source, but truth is truth regardless if there is a God or not. Imo.

The Greeks were wise to acknowledge virtues. And there are a lot more virtues than originally thought. So maybe God does bestow a spirit upon mankind. I do not know.

 

[Trailblazer]

You're going to get a very diverse set of answers to such a question when you haven't defined terms. The first question you'd need to ask before getting to the "why" is the "what" - what does it actually mean to worship God? We need to figure what exactly we mean by "God" and what exactly we mean by "worship", otherwise everyone's going to be answering different questions because they all likely have different ideas about what these terms mean.

That's true, the terms have to be defined, but what matters most is what God meant by them, if God was responsible for those scriptures I posted.

What does it mean to worship God, that is a good question, and a very important one to me given this is what my religion teaches about why we were created:

Short Obligatory Prayer

“I bear witness, O my God, that Thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee. I testify, at this moment, to my powerlessness and to Thy might, to my poverty and to Thy wealth.

There is none other God but Thee, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.”
Bahá’u’lláh

I only wish I could believe that last sentence on more than an intellectual level.

Setting aside what I just said, if two of God's characteristics are omnibenevolence and being the creator of all that exists - which they classically are - I'd say it's pretty self-evident why God would deserve our worship. If your parents brought you into the world and have been good parents to you, do they not deserve your respect? It's a very similar situation with God.

Yes, if God had those characteristics, but where is the proof?
And even if God has those attributes, what about the other things God does or fails to do?
What if your parents who brought you into the world had been good parents to you but they also beat you?

 

[Trailblazer]

I have no reason to trust scriptures as being true. Words alone don't do anything for me. I need evidence or irrefutable expressions of what everything means.

I do trust 'certain scriptures' as being true but words alone don't do anything for me on more than an intellectual level, and even though I understand the scriptures on an intellectual level, I still need evidence or irrefutable expressions of what everything means.

I have an independent view on God. I see God as the maximum greatest possible being in terms of morals, and actions, and character. The way I see it is with God you are only going to get what you deserve or what is truly necessary.

That is now I see it too and how Baha'u'llah depicts God, for all intents and purposes.

Nature tells me a radically different story than God. Still I hold on to the idea that because of the miracle of intelligence and the existence of virtues there is reason to believe in a beyond.

According to nature God has limits and does not seem to be responsible for the behaviour of nature. That's how I see it.

Nature is blind and indifferent for the most part.

I see nature similarly and it also tells me a different story than God.

To me all powerful and all knowing should solve every problem everywhere. But I don't see that.

I would not expect God to do that even though hypothetically He could, because that would leave nothing for humans to do but sit around and have fun, and I do not see fun as the purpose of our existence or as even something we need. Solving problems is one thing humans were designed for and it enriches our lives and grows our souls.