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Clarification on Hosea and Jeremiah

Discussion in 'Christianity in General DIR' started by Dan Mellis, Apr 17, 2019.

  1. Dan Mellis

    Dan Mellis Thorsredballs

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    Hi all,

    I usually am out for a debate but in this thread that's not my aim, and I won't enter into it (promise).

    I've seen some Christians refer to a passage in Hosea (9:16) which has some pretty strong wording about 'Ephraim'. They interpret Ephraim to mean all of Israel; however from what I can see, it only refers to one of 12 tribes. Can anyone give me the reasoning behind the generalisation or is this incorrect?

    Also, I'm interested in the apologetic argument for Jeremiah 29:17-19. Specifically, I've heard some arguments that 'death doesn't really mean literal death in the bible' and that you have to refer to NT when OT seems incongruent. The following quote was given from the aforementioned passage by a Christian to explain the gravitas of their faith...

    “I will send the sword, Famine and plague against them, and I will make them like poor figs that are so bad they cannot be eaten. I will pursue them with the sword, famine and plague and will make them abhorrent to all the kingdoms of the earth and an object of cursing and horror, of scorn and reproach, among all the nations where I drive them. For they have not listened to my words,”

    again, any other views?
     
  2. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    For what its worth the Good Figs went into exile, the Bad Figs were left behind.

    SAB, Jeremiah 29
     
  3. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    "When I would have healed Israel, then the iniquity of Ephraim was discovered, and the wickedness of Samaria: for they commit falsehood; and the thief cometh in, and the troop of robbers spoileth without." *** Hosea 7:1

    "Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people; Ephraim is a cake not turned." Hosea 7:8
     
  4. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Who is Ephraim

    Because of the great sin of Solomon, God divided the kingdom into two parts; the northern and southern kingdoms.

    The Northern Kingdom was made up of ten tribes known as The House of Ephraim or The House of Israel.

    The Southern Kingdom was known as The House of Judah.

    The Northern Kingdom sinned greatly against God and changed the Festivals and Laws so the people would not go back to Jerusalem. (Jeroboam did not want to lose his subjects)

    God scattered the Northern Kingdom to the four corners of the earth because of these sins, not keeping the feasts and changing the dates and seasons God had ordained.

    God said that they would not be known by the tongue they spoke or the color of their skin. However, He said in the last days He would once again gather these Lost Tribes and bring them back to Israel.

    In Geneses 48:19 Jacob blessed Ephraim and said he would become the fullness of the gentiles. This is the correct interpretation of this verse; if you go back into the Hebrew text you will find this to be the truth.

    In Isaiah 8:14 “And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.”

    We all understand that Judah, the Southern Kingdom stumbled in seeing Yeshua (Jesus) as the Messiah.

    However, few realize that the other House was the Northern Kingdom.

    They stumbled over being able to see that the Holy Covenant was still in place. These people of the Northern Kingdom had become the fullness of the gentiles not knowing that they were the Lost Tribes. When Yeshua (Jesus) came to this earth, the Northern Kingdom was drawn to the Messiah.

    The Southern Kingdom was blinded by God that they could not see Him as Messiah, but they kept the Law or the Torah. Thus, both the kingdoms stumbled.

    In Hosea 7:8 “Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people; Ephraim is a cake not turned.” He is saying Ephraim has the Messiah but not the Law.

    Hosea 8:11-12 “Because Ephraim hath made many altars to sin, altars shall be unto him to sin. I have written to him the great things of my law, but they were counted as a strange thing.”

    Most of the Church today is the Northern Kingdom and they do not know it. God is now beginning to gather them together to one day, bring them back into the nation of Israel, the land God gave to our forefathers.

    continued

    Who is Ephraim | We Ephraim
     
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  5. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    There are numerous ones. I suggest reading John Dominic Crossan's book: How to Read the Bible & Still Be a Christian. The subtitle of it is Is God Violent: An Exploration from Genesis to Revelation. Its paperback about 250 pages and gives a very nice gentle introduction to prophecy and where Christianity comes in and all that. He doesn't specifically comment on the passages you are citing, but he does comment on Jeremiah and Hosea.

    I also suggest Zondervan's Bible Handbook which is much like a handheld encyclopedia with bibliography and explains common Bible questions. For example where does the LXX come from? Its got some maps and explanations of common points of view about people in the Bible, clothing, some archeology etc. It is arranged alphabetically.

    As for your question about resurrection it is hotly debated sometimes, but generally people believe in either a physical resurrection or a resurrection in a spiritual like body. More rarely they will believe that the resurrection refers to investing yourself into the body of Christ. The NT is in my opinion somewhat threadbare when it comes to nailing down which one it is. By and large people are of the spiritual body resurrection type where once you die you are shifted to a different reality and have a body suitable for it. I am not certain but this would include most Baptists, most universalists, charismatics and many other large denominations. Catholics and Anglicans I think would be on the fence depending. Greek Orthodox I've no idea precisely.

    Its similar to the question of transubstantiation. There is a gospel passage where Jesus introduces communion and says "This is my blood" and "This is my body" when he serves bread and wine. In Catholic circles this is called transubstantiation, and it is required to believe that communion is the consumption of blood and body despite that it looks and tastes like bread and wine. Many people find this an obstacle. Many other denominations find this offensive and prefer to say it is a metaphor. Nevertheless Jesus only says "This is my blood" and "This is my body." So this is something where what is said is insufficient to determine what people will believe upon reading what is said. Perhaps you believe in transubstantiation, perhaps not, or perhaps you believe both ways and that it is a different way of looking at things. Resurrection similarly can be seen several ways in the NT; but not everybody agrees about that. Many would say there is only one way to look at it.
     
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  6. Dan Mellis

    Dan Mellis Thorsredballs

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    Thanks for this. However, I wasn't really asking about resurrection but about literally death.

    For example, if the bible says someone should be put to "death" for being gay (just an example, not trying to start a debate on this), I've come up against arguments that it doesnt mean they have to kill them, just legally consider them dead. Or ceremonially kill them and resurrect them.

    Any thoughts?
     
  7. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    You mean like "shunning"... Bad idea.. so is killing them literally or figuratively.
     
  8. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    There are no Christian ceremonies for killing. Christians do not stone people or pantomime execution. Maybe there used to be pantomime in executions in Judaism? I don't know, and that is a different religion. There is excommunication, shunning, casting out. These are situations where individuals are excluded from the community in order to put pressure on them to conform. You could call it spiritual death. Not everybody does. There is also a difference between being put out and leaving on your own. Some people believe that a Christian who leaves Christ on their own accord can never return, and so that would be spiritual death to them. Most believe you can always return.

    As an aside about killing: In Christianity killing anyone physically is considered a sin as is hating anyone. Many believe though that execution is a function of government and so is acceptable for the government to kill people sometimes. In Christianity we are absolutely supposed to love our enemies. This differs from Judaism which sometimes forgives enemies but doesn't require loving enemies so completely. It may be ironic but Christians aren't always at peace with enemies. Christians have been known to go to war, to have death sentences in our countries. That seems a departure from our ideals and from what we are supposed to do, but usually that comes down to believing that the government does the fighting and killing not Christians. Some Christians are pacifists. Some do not believe in war at all. Some believe only in war for self defense. Some believe offensive wars are Ok.
     
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  9. Dan Mellis

    Dan Mellis Thorsredballs

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    I entirely agree - I'm atheist haha I'm just trying to figure out the other side of the argument. I cant see any evidence that it means shunning, which would mean they mean literally killing.

    Recently when I've been pointing out that it's in the bible that certain people should be killed, I've been hit with 'oh well the NT overrides that' (why keep it in then, plenty other stuff has been removed if it was contradictory), 'they were using exaggeration, like if I said "I could kill or some ice cream" and "they didn't literally mean kill - theres no evidence that they did. They probably meant figuratively kill."

    All of which seem like absurd rebuttals to me, but I can't really say for certain because they won't explain why they think that way. I thought it might be due to the conversation getting a bit heated, so I'm looking elsewhere for clarification :)
     
  10. Dan Mellis

    Dan Mellis Thorsredballs

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    Thanks for this, it's helped to inform the christian position :) I'll bear it in mind when debating in future.
     
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  11. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    There's a long, long list of stuff in the Bible that people should be killed for.. from planting the wrong crops to mixing textiles. Its not rational IMO.
     
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