Claims vs. Beliefs

[firedragon]

1) Their Person (their character, as demonstrated by the life they led)

You come out genuine.

But I have a question on this particular point. How do you know this "character" for sure? What if all you know about this person was concocted? How do you know it was not? What is your methodology?

 

[CG Didymus]

Those who claim to be Messengers do that. There are those who claim to be One with God but outside of that what you write is reasonable to me. We are all responsible to hopefully apply our best judgement in evaluating such claims.

This is the claim... "The Messengers of God made claims in their scriptures." Calling these people "messengers" doesn't completely tell the story of what Baha'is claim. They say they are "manifestations" of God. They are not ordinary people. They are supposedly perfectly polished mirrors reflecting God. And Baha'is claim that Krishna, Buddha, Abraham, Moses and maybe even Adam and Noah along with Jesus, Muhammad and their two prophets, The Bab and Baha'u'llah were manifestations of God.

The problems I have with that claim is that when did Adam, Noah, Buddha, Abraham, Moses or even Muhammad claim to be manifestations of God and not ordinary men? Some of them didn't have Scriptures in which to claim anything. And then with Krishna, as far as I know, he claimed to be an incarnation of the God Vishnu. For me, it's too much of a fabrication of the Baha'i Faith to piece together all the major religions and make them "one" and from the same source, the Abrahamic God.

Sounds reasonable? Maybe to some. But all this about claims vs. beliefs and who has the burden of proof. It is the religion that makes the claims and is always faced with trying to prove it to themselves and to those who don't believe. But then each opposing religion finds ways to prove why they are right and why other religions are wrong in some ways. Then those that don't believe any of those religions try to find reasons and proof why those religions are wrong. Then there are those people that have spiritual beliefs and just keep quiet and live by their beliefs.

Religions like the Baha'i Faith, Christianity and some others aren't like that. They are told to go teach the truth... the "word" of God to others. It don't matter what they call it. They believe it. And they tell others about it as if it is the absolute truth. If that's not claiming it, it's pretty darn close, and they better have something to back up their claims/beliefs.

 

[John53]

Why did Bahá'u'lláh marry a 15-year-old girl when he was 18?

Marriages in nineteenth century Persia were often contracted between families and not based on romantic whim. The marriage was according to Islamic law and tradition.

See the following:

“In Iran women control marriages for their children, and much intrigue in domestic life revolves around marital matters. A mother is typically on the lookout for good marriage prospects at all times. Even if a mother is diffident about marriage brokering, she is obliged to "clear the path" for a marriage proposal. She does this by letting her counterpart in the other family know that a proposal is forthcoming, or would be welcome. She then must confer with her husband, who makes the formal proposal in a social meeting between the two families.”

Read more: history, people, clothing, traditions, women, beliefs, food, customs, family

For specific information regarding the marriages of Baha’u’llah see

Wives of Baha'u'llah

In the past when marriage age was very low, there might have been a few years between the two to allow the girl to grow up. The first is called ‘Aghed’ meaning knot. This is when the legal process takes place, both the parties and their guardian’s sign a marriage contract and a bride price or ‘mahr’ is set to guarantee the financial well being of the bride. The mahr is agreed on beforehand and at this time previously prepared documents will be signed. The second stage is the actual feasts and the celebrations, which traditionally lasts from 3 to 7 days. ~ Massoume Price

Iranian Marriage Ceremony, Its History & Symbolism

Besides the awesome answers listed above, I can also add that marriage acceptable age has changed a lo in the last 60 years, I remember talking to my grandmother, she married my grandfather when she was 14 and he was 22 years old, her first son, my oldest uncle was born when she was 16, also if your intent is to accuse Baha’u’llah of any wrong doing, let me remind you that even in the USA it was perfectly fine to marry an 11 year only.
Currently in the US:

· 2 states have a minimum age of 14: Alaska and North Carolina.
· 4 states have a minimum age of 15.
· 20 states have a minimum age of 16.
· 9 states have a minimum age of 17.
· 2 states have a minimum age of 18.

see my source here: Marriage age in the United States - Wikipedia

Also, the age of maturity is set at 15 in the Baha'i Faith. It would not be possible to marry before that point according to Baha'i law.

https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Baháulláh-marry-a-15-year-old-girl-when-he-was-18

Believe whatever you want to believe. Just realize it is based upon ignorance of the customs and culture of Islam.
Bahá’u’lláh - Wives | Bahá’í Quotes

I didn't say it was illegal, I said it was evidence to me he ain't no messenger of a God.

 

[The Hammer]

Then why did you say that? In the context of the conversation that was what it was.

You ask for proof of that which is ineffable.

That's as wishful as any belief.

 

[CG Didymus]

What does it make it then?

What makes it even worse is that apparently it was okay with God. And I think it might be okay with Baha'u'llah for men to have two wives. I wonder what God's new minimum age is? (I guess it is 15). Oh, and I wonder if woman can have two husbands?

 

[Subduction Zone]

You ask for proof of that which is ineffable.

That's as wishful as any belief.

No, I didn't. I did not even come close to that. I only pointed out that claiming something is ineffable is only an excuse and it still tells us that one only has a belief. If you want to claim that something is ineffable that is fine with me, but then you will never have anything more than a mere belief.

 

[The Hammer]

No, I didn't. I did not even come close to that. I only pointed out that claiming something is ineffable is only an excuse and it still tells us that one only has a belief. If you want to claim that something is ineffable that is fine with me, but then you will never have anything more than a mere belief.

Gotcha. Either way...

You make that sound like a bad thing?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Gotcha. Either way...

You make that sound like a bad thing?

Knowledge would be better. Mere belief is often wrong. And if you belief that something is ineffable that may be wrong too. Or in other words, knowledge trumps belief.

 

[The Hammer]

What makes it even worse is that apparently it was okay with God. And I think it might be okay with Baha'u'llah for men to have two wives. I wonder what God's new minimum age is? (I guess it is 15). Oh, and I wonder if woman can have two husbands?

I don't see the big deal with multiple marriages in either direction. Where/Why is monogamy held as sacred? If you can provide for more, by all means have more.

 

[The Hammer]

Knowledge would be better. Mere belief is often wrong. And if you belief that something is ineffable that may be wrong too. Or in other words, knowledge trumps belief.

I have ineffable knowledge .

I can feel it, I can express it in song and dance. But I'll never be able to put it pen to paper so to speak, or to say it aloud.

B.G. 11.52 and 54
"This form you have seen
is rarely revealed;
the gods are constantly craving
for a vision of this form.(52)"

"By devotion alone
can I, as I really am,
be known and seen
and entered into, Arjuna. (54)"

 

[Subduction Zone]

I have ineffable knowledge .

I can feel it, I can express it in song and dance. But I'll never be able to put it pen to paper so to speak, or to say it aloud.

B.G. 11.52 and 54
"This form you have seen
is rarely revealed;
the gods are constantly craving
for a vision of this form.(52)"

"By devotion alone
can I, as I really am,
be known and seen
and entered into, Arjuna. (54)"

No, at best you have ineffable beliefs. I am not saying that all beliefs are bad. We need some of them. But if you want to understand the world then knowledge is the way to go. Everybody has a belief and many of them are contradictory with neither being better than the other.

 

[The Hammer]

No, at best you have ineffable beliefs.

Yes. I have ineffable knowledge.

 

[John53]

Well if nothing else I've learnt what ineffable means

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes. I have ineffable knowledge.

Then prove it. A claim won't do it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well if nothing else I've learnt what ineffable means

I might be dropping a few eff bombs soon.

 

[The Hammer]

Then prove it. A claim won't do it.

Prove what is indescribable, you jest?
(The ineffability of Gods designates incomprehensibility.)

I'd rather explain color to someone blind
from birth.

Or better yet can you prove to me that YOU exist?

 

[The Hammer]

I might be dropping a few eff bombs soon.

It won't help any.

 

[sun rise]

knowledge trumps belief.

I agree but in a way you may disagree with: Knowledge (experience of Truth) trumps belief. The intellect is the best tool to have knowledge of the world. The heart is the best tool to have knowledge of the ineffable.

Hafiz: “The heart is the thousand – stringed instrument that can only be tuned with Love.”

 

[Trailblazer]

You come out genuine.

But I have a question on this particular point. How do you know this "character" for sure? What if all you know about this person was concocted? How do you know it was not? What is your methodology?

That is a useful question. How we can know is by reading about Baha'u'llah and there are accounts from people who knew Him in these texts.

 

[Trailblazer]

I didn't say it was illegal, I said it was evidence to me he ain't no messenger of a God.

That is your opinion to which you are entitled.