Citizens of the Kingdom of God

[epronovost]

I believe societies should be politically organised rather than religiously organised - and politically, I am a liberal

Alongside the bible, this is a part of how I think Earth should be organised:

Universal Declaration of Human Rights

How do you deal with the fact that the Bible and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights don't often agree with one another? Are women free and equal or should they submit unto their husband like they themselves submit unto the Lord? Is blasphemy a natural right or the worst of all sins?

 

[Eddi]

Then why didn't he "revealed themselves to civilisation with a less hierarchical model or even an equalitarian or almost equalitarian one's like the Illyrians, the Thracians, the Sarmatians the Minoeans to name a few. These people were all living close the Meditereanean if this is important to you and they were more vigorous civilisations than the Hebrews.

Yes, you'd think he'd behave more reasonably wouldn't you? But obviously not. He does not make things easy for his apologists. But I trust that he is good, as well as powerful, and knows what he's doing in the long-run.

With that sort of reasonning you could sanction any and all sort of cruel and dangerous scientific experiment on the basis that they miht teach you something. This is morally dubious at best. It also excuses many other behavior of the sort. People can die and suffer as long as it makes you better in the long run. I can excuse anything with such reasonning.

I believe that when it comes to morals what is acceptable for a creator/ruler of the universe to do is different from what it is acceptable for a human to do. God is not a human. He is beyond humankind. They are different kinds of beings in many respects - including morally.

So you reject Jesus's words on this issue? He was crystal clear on it.

I believe it was a transgression in the dispensation he lived in, but is not a crime in today's world

Second, from an abrahamic mythic perspective this argument is nonesense. If your deity's goal was to unite humanity and make them live in peace and prosperity together, he would not have destroyed a united humanity and he did in the myth of Babel. How can you tell humans were less mature and enlighten at that point? According to God's own opinion of them, humanity was in a state of immense prosperity and capable of solving any challenge presented before it.

You know what? I'm going to bite the bullet on this one: The legend of Babel is baggage from a previous dispensation. I don't believe its lessons can be applied to this age - but that they made sense in a previous age. It is not literally true and it is now no longer metaphorically true. But as a concept, as a myth, it has had its uses..

The only difference between you and Christian of the 15th century is the moral code you think God follows. Your God is a liberal humanist of the enlightenment era, their's was the God of scriptures. Am I wrong so far about why you believe in?

Yes - my God is like the deity people had in the 15th century (all the omnis etc.) only he's a liberal humanist of the enlightenment era - I believe he's changed since that human era because we are in a new heavenly dispensation - the very beginning of End Times

I believe that some of the stuff in scripture is universal, but others historically and culturally specific. I believe it is up to people to use their God-given capacity for reason to understand what's what but that we will be more certain on such issues once we progress towards End Times

 

[Eddi]

How do you deal with the fact that the Bible and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights don't often agree with one another? Are women free and equal or should they submit unto their husband like they themselves submit unto the Lord? Is blasphemy a natural right or the worst of all sins?

The UDHR is secular scripture from a later epoch than biblical scripture, it is the modern day equivalent of the Ten Commandments, only humans came up with it (with some influence from God, I do maintain)

It's authority comes from the fact that it is a blue-print for a more perfect world

In my mind, it over-rides "biblical" scripture made for earlier periods - but that doesn't mean it invalidates all previous scripture

But it is more valuable as it comes from human reason - in accordance with God's will

But I believe God is behind it, as it points us towards where we're supposed to be, according to his plan

And I also believe very much in these:

SDGs .:. Sustainable Development Knowledge Platform

 

[epronovost]

Yes, you'd think he'd behave more reasonably wouldn't you? But obviously not. He does not make things easy for his apologists. But I trust that he is good, as well as powerful, and knows what he's doing in the long-run.

Cool statement of faith, but the perfect recepe to be horribly wrong about everything.

I believe that when it comes to morals what is acceptable for a creator/ruler of the universe to do is different from what it is acceptable for a human to do. God is not a human. He is beyond humankind. They are different kinds of beings in many respects - including morally.

I was waiting for this one and I'm always facepalming when I see it not because it's illogical, but because of how twisted it is. The idea that your deity doesn't have to follow any sort of moral code despite being the supposed author, judge and arbiter of morality is repugnant to me and clearly destroy your argument that God is your friend and your equal in relationship. God gives the rules, judges the transgressors and doesn't have to follow them. He doesn't even make the effort to. Basically he doesn't follow the axiom of responsability: "With great powers comes great responsabilities.".

You know what? I'm going to bite the bullet on this one: The legend of Babel is baggage from a previous dispensation. I don't believe its lessons can be applied to this age - but that they made sense in a previous age. It is not literally true and it is now no longer metaphorically true. But as a concept, as a myth, it has had its uses..


Yes - my God is like the deity people had in the 15th century (all the omnis etc.) only he's a liberal humanist of the enlightenment era - I believe he's changed since that human era because we are in a new heavenly dispensation - the very beginning of End Times

I believe that some of the stuff in scripture is universal, but others historically and culturally specific. I believe it is up to people to use their God-given capacity for reason to understand what's what but that we will be more certain on such issues once we progress towards End Times

It seems to me you have cherry picked a holy book, built a personnal belief around those cherry picked portions and aligned them with your own personnal values which are now divine universal values that nobody can oppose without facing your god's wrath. It seems to me you simply sacralized your political and moral values. You can absolutely do so btw for the people who wrote those scripture did the exact same. There never was a Babel Tower, Global Flood and so many other things afterall.

While I do not oppose those political and moral values, I find the sacralization to be puerile and useless and this ideal of celestial justice to be even more so. I do not support either the salvaging of portion scriptures divorced of their history and culture. It smacks of bowdlerization and cultural missappropriation.

 

[WhyIsThatSo]

I have something I'd like to discuss:

I Vow To Thee, My Country is a very well known British patriotic hymn which was written in the aftermath of the first world war to a popular tune...

See here for the lyrics: I Vow to Thee, My Country - Wikipedia

Look it up on Youtube, it is quite rousing

Most people are familiar with its first verse which is all about laying down one’s life for one’s nation; here is the less well-known second verse:

And there's another country, I've heard of long ago,
Most dear to them that love her, most great to them that know;
We may not count her armies, we may not see her King;
Her fortress is a faithful heart, her pride is suffering;
And soul by soul and silently her shining bounds increase,
And her ways are ways of gentleness, and all her paths are peace.

Clearly this is about the Kingdom of God

I believe that the Kingdom of God is quite real, I believe it is a spiritual kingdom with no borders or government, it is more like a family, but with a being (God) at its head

I’m not much of a patriot, I am very much more an internationalist

But I say we don’t need world government…

Because I believe ALL humans are already all citizens of the Kingdom of God!

God knows no borders and sees the world as being made up of individual human souls, not of nations

Together we are his subjects, no matter what our creed or ethnicity

I say that one doesn’t need to believe in World Government to be an internationalist. I certainly don’t. The Kingdom of God is, I believe, quite real.

We humans just need to start acting as though we are, and then things will improve on this little planet of ours…

Question: Do you agree or disagree? And what are your reasons?

Bonus Question: How do Atheists fit into the Kingdom of God??? I say: They don't believe in God, but God believes in them so they are members too whether they like it or not! Unless they want to opt out???

psssst…..Your "second less well known verse", is a reference to the nation "Israel".

 

[Eddi]

doesn't have to follow any sort of moral code

I'd say that he does follow a moral code - just not the same code as us. Like in a school - the children have their text books, but the teacher has the teacher's edition

I see him like a referee, whose job is to enforce natural law - which he put into the bible, according to his interpretation of it, which is greater than ours

God gives the rules, judges the transgressors and doesn't have to follow them

I think the relationship between humankind is equal in some respects but unequal in others

Like the relationship between a human and a dog

Both have value, but one is clearly in charge

Would a good dog owner strip naked and run about on all fours, and eat their dinner from a ceramic dog bowl? No, they provide for and care for their dog - and train them too so they can have a good standard of life. For the greater good of all involved.

It seems to me you have cherry picked a holy book

No, I believe that parts of it reflect God's will for us here now, and that other parts were God's will for us in a different epoch. I believe that throughout history this is how people have approached it, whether they like it or not. And that the challenge is to know what's what in light of what we can be sure of.

It is my aim to do everything I do in the spirit of Christ, as we can discern it from historic scripture. I believe my hermeneutic is a legitimate one and that my belief has its roots in scripture and tradition.

built a personnal belief around those cherry picked portions and aligned them with your own personnal values

My personal beliefs are my own personal interpretation of Christianity in light of my recent study of End Times. I believe it is a legitimate interpretation. They do not pre-exist my commitment to Christianity.

which are now divine universal values that nobody can oppose without facing your god's wrath

I believe salvation (or God's wrath) happens according to God's grace alone - and I cannot believe that certain things incur God's wrath, such as homosexuality. I understand that in this age people are to be judged according to having God as their Lord. I believe God is my Lord. And if I'm wrong I am prepared for his wrath. And you know what? I think I may very well be wrong.

I do not support either the salvaging of portion scriptures divorced of their history and culture. It smacks of bowdlerization and cultural missappropriation.

The same could be said against people in previous centuries who are now thought of as progressives

 

[WhyIsThatSo]

I have something I'd like to discuss:

I Vow To Thee, My Country is a very well known British patriotic hymn which was written in the aftermath of the first world war to a popular tune...

See here for the lyrics: I Vow to Thee, My Country - Wikipedia

Look it up on Youtube, it is quite rousing

Most people are familiar with its first verse which is all about laying down one’s life for one’s nation; here is the less well-known second verse:

And there's another country, I've heard of long ago,
Most dear to them that love her, most great to them that know;
We may not count her armies, we may not see her King;
Her fortress is a faithful heart, her pride is suffering;
And soul by soul and silently her shining bounds increase,
And her ways are ways of gentleness, and all her paths are peace.

Clearly this is about the Kingdom of God

I believe that the Kingdom of God is quite real, I believe it is a spiritual kingdom with no borders or government, it is more like a family, but with a being (God) at its head

I’m not much of a patriot, I am very much more an internationalist

But I say we don’t need world government…

Because I believe ALL humans are already all citizens of the Kingdom of God!

God knows no borders and sees the world as being made up of individual human souls, not of nations

Together we are his subjects, no matter what our creed or ethnicity

I say that one doesn’t need to believe in World Government to be an internationalist. I certainly don’t. The Kingdom of God is, I believe, quite real.

We humans just need to start acting as though we are, and then things will improve on this little planet of ours…

Question: Do you agree or disagree? And what are your reasons?

Bonus Question: How do Atheists fit into the Kingdom of God??? I say: They don't believe in God, but God believes in them so they are members too whether they like it or not! Unless they want to opt out???

The second verse of your country's patriotic hymn, is in reference to your country's origin.
It speaks of the nation of "Israel", from which your country and mine (USA) was founded.

And has nothing to do with the Kingdom of God.

 

[Eddi]

I stand corrected

Regarding the meaning of that verse, assuming you're correct

But I stand by all else I have said

I think...

 

[WhyIsThatSo]

I stand corrected

Regarding the meaning of that verse, assuming you're correct

But I stand by all else I have said

I think...

That's no problem , at least you can "see" the possibilities.
unlike most here.

And if you look at the words closely, you will "see" more.

 

[WhyIsThatSo]

I stand corrected

Regarding the meaning of that verse, assuming you're correct

But I stand by all else I have said

I think...

"we may not count HER armies, we may not see HER king "

 

[epronovost]

I'd say that he does follow a moral code - just not the same code as us. Like in a school - the children have their text books, but the teacher has the teacher's edition.

Wrong example. A teacher's edition is not different than a textbook. The only difference is that a teacher's eddition has the answers to the exercise and the evaluation material in it too. They are the same books with the exact same information.

I see him like a referee, whose job is to enforce natural law - which he put into the bible, according to his interpretation of it, which is greater than ours


I think the relationship between humankind is equal in some respects but unequal in others

Like the relationship between a human and a dog

Both have value, but one is clearly in charge.

Thus you withdraw your argument that God and humans are equal and one isn't subject to another; you now agree that you are a subject of the kingdom of God and not a citizen? Dogs aren't citizens, children aren't citizens. If God makes and enforces the rules because "He knows better", then you aren't his equal nor his friend. I am not my dogs or my child's friend. I am their master and father respectively. I am not a friend to my students, I'm their teacher.

My personal beliefs are my own personal interpretation of Christianity in light of my recent study of End Times. I believe it is a legitimate interpretation. They do not pre-exist my commitment to Christianity.

Then how do you reconcile this with your belief that men and women are (or at least should be) equals, that homosexuality is not a sin, that blasphemy isn't a sin, that pre-marital sex isn't a sin, that divorce is okay, that unbelievers are your equals. These are all core values mentionned in scriptures in unambiguous ways. You supported those things before your conversion if I remember well? Isn't odd that you now think that your very Christian God supports those things he clearly opposed in scripture?

I believe salvation (or God's wrath) happens according to God's grace alone

So now it's not even ruled based, it's based on your deity's fancy? You seemed to be all over the place trying to reconcile your humanist enlighten values and political beliefs with that of christianity. Need I remind you that humanist and enlighten values were developped in the western world in opposition to christian values.

 

[Eddi]

Yes, you're right, I have disintegrated and by trying to defend my original propositions rather than go after truth I have committed an intellectual sin - when the aim of the original post was to examine the truth of things, I lost my way in an adversarial encounter

You win

But I do think it's possible to hold certain enlightenment values and believe in God and the historic Jesus - and to successfully follow them

But maybe one needs to move beyond sola scriptura to do this, to a limited extent.

And if I am mistaken I accept the consequences

 

[epronovost]

Yes, you're right, I have disintegrated and by trying to defend my original propositions rather than go after truth I have committed an intellectual sin - when the aim of the original post was to examine the truth of things, I lost my way in an adversarial encounter

You win

It's a rare sight I must admit to see someone recognising their error and is a mark of strong character on that I must tip you my hat.

But I do think it's possible to hold certain enlightenment values and believe in God and the historic Jesus - and to successfully follow them

But maybe one needs to move beyond sola scriptura to do this, to a limited extent.

And if I am mistaken I accept the consequences

Unfortunately, we have next to zero information on the preaching of the "historical Jesus" and the other nazarene. You can believe in all the gods you want, past or present or even produce your own with its own mythology; you are free to believe in anything that your heart's desire. At the very least I will personnaly have no real issue with you as long as you hold to humanist and universalist values.

 

[Eddi]

psssst…..Your "second less well known verse", is a reference to the nation "Israel".

According to Wikipedia "The poem described how a Christian owes his loyalties to both his homeland and the heavenly kingdom"

I Vow to Thee, My Country - Wikipedia

 

[WhyIsThatSo]

According to Wikipedia "The poem described how a Christian owes his loyalties to both his homeland and the heavenly kingdom"

I Vow to Thee, My Country - Wikipedia

Well, what would you expect ?

 

[shmogie]

I have something I'd like to discuss:

I Vow To Thee, My Country is a very well known British patriotic hymn which was written in the aftermath of the first world war to a popular tune...

See here for the lyrics: I Vow to Thee, My Country - Wikipedia

Look it up on Youtube, it is quite rousing

Most people are familiar with its first verse which is all about laying down one’s life for one’s nation; here is the less well-known second verse:

And there's another country, I've heard of long ago,
Most dear to them that love her, most great to them that know;
We may not count her armies, we may not see her King;
Her fortress is a faithful heart, her pride is suffering;
And soul by soul and silently her shining bounds increase,
And her ways are ways of gentleness, and all her paths are peace.

Clearly this is about the Kingdom of God

I believe that the Kingdom of God is quite real, I believe it is a spiritual kingdom with no borders or government, it is more like a family, but with a being (God) at its head

I’m not much of a patriot, I am very much more an internationalist

But I say we don’t need world government…

Because I believe ALL humans are already all citizens of the Kingdom of God!

God knows no borders and sees the world as being made up of individual human souls, not of nations

Together we are his subjects, no matter what our creed or ethnicity

I say that one doesn’t need to believe in World Government to be an internationalist. I certainly don’t. The Kingdom of God is, I believe, quite real.

We humans just need to start acting as though we are, and then things will improve on this little planet of ours…

Question: Do you agree or disagree? And what are your reasons?

Bonus Question: How do Atheists fit into the Kingdom of God??? I say: They don't believe in God, but God believes in them so they are members too whether they like it or not! Unless they want to opt out???

The Bible makes clear that there are two Kingdoms of God, it is spiritual now, but will be a literal, physical, kingdom on earth in the near future.

One can only be a member of these kingdoms through Christ, "for there is no other name under heaven by which man can be saved"

 

[blü 2]

I have something I'd like to discuss:

I Vow To Thee, My Country is a very well known British patriotic hymn which was written in the aftermath of the first world war to a popular tune...

See here for the lyrics: I Vow to Thee, My Country - Wikipedia

Look it up on Youtube, it is quite rousing

Most people are familiar with its first verse which is all about laying down one’s life for one’s nation; here is the less well-known second verse:

And there's another country, I've heard of long ago,
Most dear to them that love her, most great to them that know;
We may not count her armies, we may not see her King;
Her fortress is a faithful heart, her pride is suffering;
And soul by soul and silently her shining bounds increase,
And her ways are ways of gentleness, and all her paths are peace.

Clearly this is about the Kingdom of God

I believe that the Kingdom of God is quite real, I believe it is a spiritual kingdom with no borders or government, it is more like a family, but with a being (God) at its head

I’m not much of a patriot, I am very much more an internationalist

But I say we don’t need world government…

Because I believe ALL humans are already all citizens of the Kingdom of God!

God knows no borders and sees the world as being made up of individual human souls, not of nations

Together we are his subjects, no matter what our creed or ethnicity

I say that one doesn’t need to believe in World Government to be an internationalist. I certainly don’t. The Kingdom of God is, I believe, quite real.

We humans just need to start acting as though we are, and then things will improve on this little planet of ours…

Question: Do you agree or disagree? And what are your reasons?

Bonus Question: How do Atheists fit into the Kingdom of God??? I say: They don't believe in God, but God believes in them so they are members too whether they like it or not! Unless they want to opt out???

Having read through your post twice, all that occurs to me to say is, Good luck with that.

 

[dfnj]

God knows no borders and sees the world as being made up of individual human souls, not of nations
Question: Do you agree or disagree? And what are your reasons?
Bonus Question: How do Atheists fit into the Kingdom of God??? I say: They don't believe in God, but God believes in them so they are members too whether they like it or not! Unless they want to opt out???

God does not know borders. God does not have a "chosen" people. Everyone is equal in the eyes of God. My reasons are as follows. The Universe is cyclical in nature. We live and infinite number of lives and we make a different set of choices in each life. Ultimate, based on every possible choice each human being can make, God realizes His omnipotence. God is outside the boundaries of time. Each space-time dimension is like a cell in God's body. Every Big Bang event is like a cell dividing in the body of God. Our Big Bang was the result of star collapsing to a black hole in a previously existing space-time dimension.

And our experience and consciousness is like a neuron in the brain of God. Each person then is essential to God's plan of realizing His omnipotence. We are our omnipotent God's way of experiencing the thrill of having limitations by sharing in our experiences of joys and frustrations.

When we die all souls are collected the same way. When we die we go into the light, we look into the face of God, we experience eternal bliss. All our needs and desires are experienced at the greatest possible fulfillment. We become so enamored with God's infinite beauty time stops and we melt into the mind of God as an instance of the realization of His omnipotence.

Atheist fit in just fine. Since our God is about collecting experience as part of the realization of omnipotence, when we die we all go into the light regardless of who we are or were during our life. God uses His omnipotent powers of unconditional love to allow everything through the gates of Heaven to experience eternal bliss regardless of how we practiced or not practiced our religion. God's unconditional love has no limits. Every person is sacred and infinitely important as any other piece in the puzzle making up God's mind of infinite realization.

People who turn away from God end up in Hell. It is Hell because you are wasting time away from eternal bliss which is the greatest most fulfilling experience possible. Instead, in Hell, you are given omnipotent powers. At first it may sound like a good thing but it isn't. After a million times you will become bored with having sex with multiple partners at once. You would become bored with having omnipotent powers because since you are not God you will exhaust your imagination.

At the moment you give up and become humble you again will have the choice to go into the light. What better way to rehabilitated lost souls and regain their love than by given them everything they want and desire but at the same time exercising and causing a person to learn and move beyond everything that went wrong with someone's life. The powers go away when the person becomes so bored they prefer to no longer go on and then humbled before God. God's abilities in reclaiming lost souls has no limitations. The are shown the entrance to Heaven but this time the go into the light without any hesitation.

The bottom line is everyone is sacred and an essential part of God's plan for the realization of His own omnipotence.

Speaking of omnipotence the cool thing about God's omnipotence an the way nature occurs in our Universe is it looks like it is design to realize unimaginable possibilities or creativity in reality. Although on the surface it looks like it follows strict mathematical laws, deep down the Universe exists so that nothing ever repeats and what does occur is usually very interesting. If we lived in a clockwork type Universe it would be very boring and predictable like NPC characters in video games. Human players are just way more exciting and behavior is virtually impossible to predict.

 

[dfnj]

Having read through your post twice, all that occurs to me to say is, Good luck with that.

You mean God luck with that. I can't resist a good pun.

 

[blü 2]

You mean God luck with that. I can't resist a good pun.

You appear to be from the TheWorseThe PunTheBetter School, from which I have a doctorate.