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Circumcision without consent. Is it wrong?

Is it wrong to circumcise a baby who cannot consent?

  • Yes, always.

    Votes: 28 54.9%
  • No

    Votes: 18 35.3%
  • Only Jewish people should be able to

    Votes: 4 7.8%
  • Idk yo

    Votes: 1 2.0%

  • Total voters
    51

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
That is odd. He does not appear to agree with you.

Well, no, I agree with @Eha4Ever on what in my belief system is called limited cognitive, moral and cultural relativism.
In practice it is for this thread that culture and thus language shapes how you understand the world and thus morality. Notice I said limited.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Okar, your point might be that Eha4Ever and I don't agree on whether circumcision without consent is wrong or not? Is that it?
Or that I am not religious and he is?
I mean I want to learn and I might have missed something.
No. Go back to his post and see who he quoted. It was not you. It was not me.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
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Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
You've gone to an awful lot of trouble there, for little purpose.

It was a lot of fun to make, was easy to do, and was not any form of trouble at all. Also, it wasn't made specifically for you. ;)

Basically, you agree that it is fine to use a translation produced as I described.

I agreed with you from the start that for someone who is not Jewish they can use whatever they like including translations since whatever conclusions they come to for themselves isn't relevent to Torath Mosheh Jews.

For Torath Mosheh Jews, on the other hand, it is not okay, and not logical, for us to use the translations you are talking about which is why we invest so much time preserving our ancestral language and teaching it to our communities.

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KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
For Torath Mosheh Jews, on the other hand, it is not okay, and not logical, for us to use the translations you are talking about which is why we invest so much time preserving our ancestral language and teaching it to our communities.
So if there is disagreement between expert translations (which presumably you are claiming exist), how do we resolve the discrepancy?
By assertion? By consensus? By deferring to expertise?
And who decides?
 
Those who are circumcised are often circumcised when they are just a few days old, like me. Can an 8 day old baby consent to such a procedure? Of course not.
In the Protestant church my parents were going to when I was born, it was common practice for the Christians there to circumcise their children. So that’s what my mom did. We aren’t Jewish. It’s not required of us Christians. When I realized I was circumcised (whilst in high school) I was quite quite mad.
Circumcision has permanent effects on the male who is at the receiving end. At the very least shouldn’t they get a say in it? Imagine if a female got an equivalent to a male circumcision. That would F up their capacity to be intimate at least in some degree.
If you feel circumcision is wrong without consent, do you also feel that way for the Jewish people? Their religion demands that they do this, right? Is it wrong for a Jewish person to circumcise their baby?
I feel like Moses had some reservations about circumcision. He didn’t circumcise his kids, even at the threat of God killing him. It was his wife who cut the foreskins off their sons when God was chasing them.

Even Jesus was circumcised and he didn't complaint about it.

When the biblical God told Abraham to circumcise himself and the males of his clan, in that moment Judaism didn't exist. Circumcision is not for Jewish people alone but for everyone who obeys the law given in the Torah.

The common mistake is to think that circumcision is about the baby boy.

Circumcision is about the parents obedience to God.

Your parents obeyed the biblical God when they circumcised you. It wasn't about you but about their faith.

Same happens with baby baptism in Catholic church, it is not about the babies but about the obedience of those parents to the doctrines of their religion.

Same as well, if a man was not circumcised days after being born or later by the action of his parents, and as an adult he decides to be circumcised, such is also and act of faith thru obedience, following the example of Abraham.

(I think that Abraham was already a chosen one before circumcision)

Your question about your rights as a baby is very well accepted. Your position is valid as a complaint according to the law of the land. However, will you sue in a court your parents faith and obedience to their God?

I guess you can do that. I remember a young man suing their parents for that same reason. According to the victim, he didn't feel much pleasure when having sex due to the circumcision applied on him when a baby. I truly don't know what happened next, how that court case ended.

And this, in the layman world, is one more example of children's rights.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
So if there is disagreement between expert translations (which presumably you are claiming exist), how do we resolve the discrepancy?
By assertion? By consensus? By deferring to expertise?
And who decides?

Because, in Torath Mosheh communities a translation is not a source for making any kind of decision on matters, a disagreement between expert translotors would end in everyone putting away the translations and pulling out the original source material in Hebrew. No Torath Mosheh Jews takes out a translation and uses it as a standard of what the original text meant, we pull out the original. Jews who don't know Hebrew, when a question comes up, go to Jews who know Hebrew. The translation serves no purpose other than as a crutch, yet, as we know walking with a crutch is nothing like walking without one and the hope is that at some point the person can put away the crutch.

See, the below example.

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A translation, in Jewish circles, only serves those Jews who didn't learn Hebrew. Yet, those Jews know for a fact that their translation, no matter who did it, is nothing compared to understanding and reading the original in Hebrew. This is why in about 95% of synagogues no matter what type they only read the Torah publically in Hebrew, even if only a small few understanding it.
 
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Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
By assertion? By consensus? By deferring to expertise?
And who decides?

What decides matters are pulling out all relevent original texts in their original languages (Hebrew and Aramaic) with Torath Mosheh Jews who have the most expertise in Torah, Halakha, and any relevent skills to the matter in question.

The translation has no bearing in the matter, because if the question is the content of the original Hebrew/Aramaic texts with no concern over differences in translators. At such a point it doesn't matter the various translations state at all because the originals exits and there are a large percentage of Torath Mosheh Jews in virtually every Jewish local who are experts in them. I.e. texts that look like the below are what are used to decide what is correct.

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