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Church

Tmac

Active Member
I suspect church began because some people, when time permitted, sought out a place where conversation differed than that which you would find in the average day to day life. Most people find life challenging enough that they don't have time to think about it.
It wasn't thought of or called church at this time, just a place to meet. I suspect that no matter where these conversations started they all ended at "What's it all about?". There were no names for the different thoughts put forth (at this time) but they were all there. Some believed that life came from without, some from with in and some thought of it as a fleeting moment. But they all focused on the same question, not fighting with each out.
Now we have churches and the only questions are with regrads to understanding what is being taught(thought of you when I wrote these words, Laika or more specifiically Communism). There are traditions, rituals, history and pagentry to occupy the masses and some honory degree for those that wish to master the teachings. And the leadership has trouble with transparency.

What happened between then and now, what is the missing link?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I suspect church began because some people, when time permitted, sought out a place where conversation differed than that which you would find in the average day to day life.
I think the problem with your progression starts at the beginning. "I suspect" isn't "the IS what happened". It could be that in some cases that is what evolved, but I would suspect that in Judaism the Temple, where people came to, was created for different purposes
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
I suspect church began because some people, when time permitted, sought out a place where conversation differed than that which you would find in the average day to day life. Most people find life challenging enough that they don't have time to think about it.
It wasn't thought of or called church at this time, just a place to meet. I suspect that no matter where these conversations started they all ended at "What's it all about?". There were no names for the different thoughts put forth (at this time) but they were all there. Some believed that life came from without, some from with in and some thought of it as a fleeting moment. But they all focused on the same question, not fighting with each out.
Now we have churches and the only questions are with regrads to understanding what is being taught(thought of you when I wrote these words, Laika or more specifiically Communism). There are traditions, rituals, history and pagentry to occupy the masses and some honory degree for those that wish to master the teachings. And the leadership has trouble with transparency.

What happened between then and now, what is the missing link?

Someone probably figured out that they could squeeze a few bucks out of those gathering and the rest, as they say, is history.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I suspect church began because some people, when time permitted, sought out a place where conversation differed than that which you would find in the average day to day life. Most people find life challenging enough that they don't have time to think about it.
It wasn't thought of or called church at this time, just a place to meet. I suspect ...
I suspect that you never looked into the matter. Why that might be the case is a mystery.

From Wiki ...

Etymology

In Greek, the adjective kyriak-ós/-ē/-ón means "belonging, or pertaining, to a Kyrios" ("Lord"), and the usage was adopted by early Christians of the Eastern Mediterranean with regard to anything pertaining to the Lord Jesus Christ: hence "Kyriakós oíkos" ("house of the Lord", church), "Kyriakē" ("[the day] of the Lord", i.e. Sunday), or "Kyriakē proseukhē" (the "Lord's Prayer").[2] ...

In standard Greek usage, the older word "ecclesia" (ἐκκλησία, ekklesía, literally "assembly", "congregation", or the place where such a gathering occurs) was retained to signify both a specific edifice of Christian worship (a "church"), and the overall community of the faithful (the "Church"). ...

Antiquity

According to the New Testament, the earliest Christians did not build church buildings. Instead, they gathered in homes (Acts 17:5, 20:20, 1 Corinthians 16:19) or in Jewish worship places like the Second Temple or synagogues (Acts 2:46, 19:8). The earliest archeologically identified Christian church is a house church (domus ecclesiae), the Dura-Europos church, founded between 233 and 256.[4] In the second half of the 3rd century CE, the first purpose-built halls for Christian worship (aula ecclesiae) began to be constructed. ...​

The Church was and is a gathering place with an agenda

Now we have churches and the only questions are with regrads to understanding what is being taught ... There are traditions, rituals, history and pagentry to occupy the masses and some honory degree for those that wish to master the teachings. And the leadership has trouble with transparency.
^ That doesn't even rise to the level of adolescent sophistry.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Gathering places for religious purposes is much much older than Christianity.
 

Tmac

Active Member
I think the problem with your progression starts at the beginning. "I suspect" isn't "the IS what happened". It could be that in some cases that is what evolved, but I would suspect that in Judaism the Temple, where people came to, was created for different purposes

Ah, yes the Jews, the chosen ones, what vanity, Jesus exposed that part of their philosophy.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I suspect church began because some people, when time permitted, sought out a place where conversation differed than that which you would find in the average day to day life. Most people find life challenging enough that they don't have time to think about it.
It wasn't thought of or called church at this time, just a place to meet. I suspect that no matter where these conversations started they all ended at "What's it all about?". There were no names for the different thoughts put forth (at this time) but they were all there. Some believed that life came from without, some from with in and some thought of it as a fleeting moment. But they all focused on the same question, not fighting with each out.
Now we have churches and the only questions are with regrads to understanding what is being taught(thought of you when I wrote these words, Laika or more specifiically Communism). There are traditions, rituals, history and pagentry to occupy the masses and some honory degree for those that wish to master the teachings. And the leadership has trouble with transparency.

What happened between then and now, what is the missing link?

You seem to be referring to both churches that one might attend on a Sunday, and church in the abstract, which transcends its material aspects both human (clergy, lay adherents) and inanimate (buildings, pews, hymnals) that come and go over the centuries even as the church as an abstract institution persists and evolves. The latter is a set of traditions, doctrine, stories, values, goals, history, and the like.

The church in the latter respect, which has its roots in early organized Judaism, arose to meet a variety of needs. The priests were already comforting people whose lives were short, brutish, and frequently uncertain. Living on the edge or in perpetual danger creates a need for religion, which might be why it appeals more to the poor in Africa and Asia, and the relatively disenfranchised segments of American life such as people of color and poor whites, than to comfortable, educated citizens. For the latter, for the church to be effective, it needs to reach people before the age of critical thinking, and create fears and a need in them that only it can solve.

The chief beneficiaries of an organized church are the clergy. It was an opportunity for selected individuals to hold positions of social eminence while earning a living without having to labor using one's back in the hot sun. And like all businesses, it became profitable to expand the operation to include more people per cleric. Ask Joel Osteen. Build it and they will come, and they will bring their wallets.

There's a clue that this may be correct in the Old Testament, but one has to go to two parts of it: The creation story and the Ten Commandments. The Lord took the seventh day to rest, and so must you. Honor the Sabbath, which is clearly one literal day.

This is really an odd idea. Why would a god need to rest, and even if it did, why would we need to imitate it and rest?

I have a hypothesis about the origin of these ideas that relates to the arising of a clerical caste and organized religion.

Go back a few millennia, before the advent of the week and the weekend, when people worked every day, and it was likely socially unacceptable for able bodied people not to work every day. Perhaps it was taught that the gods expected it. This was very likely true in man's nomadic days of hunting and gathering, and probably applied even when he settled into a farming and herding life.

Now, fast forward to the advent of monotheism, organized religion, temples, and a priesthood, which would like it to become necessary for every head of the household and probably everybody else as well to periodically come to the temple with shekels to sustain this activity. This might be several hours of travel in each direction with several hours of congregating, which meant taking time away from work.

How do we manufacture support for that idea that it is OK to take a day off if work is considered sacred and holy? Easy. Make taking a day off once a week even holier. In fact, make it a Commandment. Even the Lord rested on the seventh day, and you will, too. And that will be a day of worship. Your presence is expected under penalty of social stigma if not cries of apostasy or impiety.

This seems very plausible to me, since it accounts an otherwise inexplicable and counterproductive idea - that a god needed to work for six days, or needed to rest - by imputing a very familiar motive to the practice. I'm betting that that story of the six days of creation followed by one of rest was concocted to imitate the cycle in man's life that the priests were trying to establish and sanctify.

Another possible clue: Look at how artificial the week is. A day, a month, and a year are each natural units of time reflecting celestial events: one rotation of the earth about its axis, one revolution of the moon around the earth, and one revolution of the earth around the sun. Why do we have the week? Probably because the day is too short and the month and year too long an interval between trips to the temple.

And so, the week was created, and with it, the weekend, or Sabbath as it was originally known.

Another group that benefited from an organized church was the kings (and emperors and tsars), which is undoubtedly why Constantine promoted Christianity. It serves the interest of monarchs to teach the masses that the king rules because God has chosen him, that resisting him is defying God, and that the proper attitude for the ruled was to accept their lot however exploited without rising up. Thus subjects were expected to submit to kings, slaves to masters, and wives to husbands. Instead, they were instructed to be meek, told that they should be long-suffering, to turn the other cheek if smitten, accept poverty (your reward comes later), and the like. As Napoleon said,
  • "How can you have order in a state without religion? For, when one man is dying of hunger near another who is ill of surfeit, he cannot resign himself to this difference unless there is an authority which declares 'God wills it thus.' Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."
Yes, I know that this is a cynical view, but it's rooted in human nature. Priests don't want to have to labor, kings want subjects to bend the knee, the basic disposition that worship of gods facilitates. And neither group wants ordinary people to read, think, or doubt - just believe, which is why faith is considered a virtue and skepticism a sin.

Even in a modern liberal, democratic state, the church still serves these purposes. The Republicans motivate believers to vote for them with promises of political rewards of interest to Christians, and it seems to work very well, especially with the cooperation of the church promoting such ideas and candidates. How else are we to account for the white evangelicals, for example, voting overwhelmingly for a man that defies most of their stated values if not in the hope that he will put justices on the Supreme Court to overrule their least favorite decisions from the past?

I hope that I addressed your question about what has become of the church and why it has evolved in the way it did.
 

Tmac

Active Member
You seem to be referring to both churches that one might attend on a Sunday, and church in the abstract, which transcends its material aspects both human (clergy, lay adherents) and inanimate (buildings, pews, hymnals) that come and go over the centuries even as the church as an abstract institution persists and evolves. The latter is a set of traditions, doctrine, stories, values, goals, history, and the like.

The church in the latter respect, which has its roots in early organized Judaism, arose to meet a variety of needs. The priests were already comforting people whose lives were short, brutish, and frequently uncertain. Living on the edge or in perpetual danger creates a need for religion, which might be why it appeals more to the poor in Africa and Asia, and the relatively disenfranchised segments of American life such as people of color and poor whites, than to comfortable, educated citizens. For the latter, for the church to be effective, it needs to reach people before the age of critical thinking, and create fears and a need in them that only it can solve.

The chief beneficiaries of an organized church are the clergy. It was an opportunity for selected individuals to hold positions of social eminence while earning a living without having to labor using one's back in the hot sun. And like all businesses, it became profitable to expand the operation to include more people per cleric. Ask Joel Osteen. Build it and they will come, and they will bring their wallets.

There's a clue that this may be correct in the Old Testament, but one has to go to two parts of it: The creation story and the Ten Commandments. The Lord took the seventh day to rest, and so must you. Honor the Sabbath, which is clearly one literal day.

This is really an odd idea. Why would a god need to rest, and even if it did, why would we need to imitate it and rest?

I have a hypothesis about the origin of these ideas that relates to the arising of a clerical caste and organized religion.

Go back a few millennia, before the advent of the week and the weekend, when people worked every day, and it was likely socially unacceptable for able bodied people not to work every day. Perhaps it was taught that the gods expected it. This was very likely true in man's nomadic days of hunting and gathering, and probably applied even when he settled into a farming and herding life.

Now, fast forward to the advent of monotheism, organized religion, temples, and a priesthood, which would like it to become necessary for every head of the household and probably everybody else as well to periodically come to the temple with shekels to sustain this activity. This might be several hours of travel in each direction with several hours of congregating, which meant taking time away from work.

How do we manufacture support for that idea that it is OK to take a day off if work is considered sacred and holy? Easy. Make taking a day off once a week even holier. In fact, make it a Commandment. Even the Lord rested on the seventh day, and you will, too. And that will be a day of worship. Your presence is expected under penalty of social stigma if not cries of apostasy or impiety.

This seems very plausible to me, since it accounts an otherwise inexplicable and counterproductive idea - that a god needed to work for six days, or needed to rest - by imputing a very familiar motive to the practice. I'm betting that that story of the six days of creation followed by one of rest was concocted to imitate the cycle in man's life that the priests were trying to establish and sanctify.

Another possible clue: Look at how artificial the week is. A day, a month, and a year are each natural units of time reflecting celestial events: one rotation of the earth about its axis, one revolution of the moon around the earth, and one revolution of the earth around the sun. Why do we have the week? Probably because the day is too short and the month and year too long an interval between trips to the temple.

And so, the week was created, and with it, the weekend, or Sabbath as it was originally known.

Another group that benefited from an organized church was the kings (and emperors and tsars), which is undoubtedly why Constantine promoted Christianity. It serves the interest of monarchs to teach the masses that the king rules because God has chosen him, that resisting him is defying God, and that the proper attitude for the ruled was to accept their lot however exploited without rising up. Thus subjects were expected to submit to kings, slaves to masters, and wives to husbands. Instead, they were instructed to be meek, told that they should be long-suffering, to turn the other cheek if smitten, accept poverty (your reward comes later), and the like. As Napoleon said,
  • "How can you have order in a state without religion? For, when one man is dying of hunger near another who is ill of surfeit, he cannot resign himself to this difference unless there is an authority which declares 'God wills it thus.' Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."
Yes, I know that this is a cynical view, but it's rooted in human nature. Priests don't want to have to labor, kings want subjects to bend the knee, the basic disposition that worship of gods facilitates. And neither group wants ordinary people to read, think, or doubt - just believe, which is why faith is considered a virtue and skepticism a sin.

Even in a modern liberal, democratic state, the church still serves these purposes. The Republicans motivate believers to vote for them with promises of political rewards of interest to Christians, and it seems to work very well, especially with the cooperation of the church promoting such ideas and candidates. How else are we to account for the white evangelicals, for example, voting overwhelmingly for a man that defies most of their stated values if not in the hope that he will put justices on the Supreme Court to overrule their least favorite decisions from the past?

I hope that I addressed your question about what has become of the church and why it has evolved in the way it did.

To be exact, you swamped me, I found some it to be rambling but the part that did catch my eye was your words about work and that maybe God expected it, well I don't know if that's true but if I was working to support the tribe and you became a liability and food was short, yours would be shorter.

What really impresses me about your answer is that you don't seem to care, as if all these thoughts don't speak about injustice.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
Ah, yes the Jews, the chosen ones, what vanity, Jesus exposed that part of their philosophy.

For what it's worth, I had a Rabbi explain the "Chosen"concept like this:

It wasn't so much that Yahweh chose the Hebrews, the Hebrews of the time choose the God of Abraham. There were other religions of the time, but the Jews choose not to follow any of them.
 

Tmac

Active Member
Jesus and all twelve of the apostles were "Jews" that you appear to disdain.


Actually if you were to read the book, you would find that it was Jesus who had disdain for them. To be exact they were of Jewish decent.
 

Tmac

Active Member
For what it's worth, I had a Rabbi explain the "Chosen"concept like this:

It wasn't so much that Yahweh chose the Hebrews, the Hebrews of the time choose the God of Abraham. There were other religions of the time, but the Jews choose not to follow any of them.

True, but the unenlightened can't see it that way or won't. It kind of helps that they made this one up (with divine help).
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
To be exact, you swamped me, I found some it to be rambling

Sorry. I thought that it was a cogent argument laid out with sufficient evidence to be at least thought provoking if not persuasive.

the part that did catch my eye was your words about work and that maybe God expected it, well I don't know if that's true

You're probably aware that I'm an atheist. My words were, "Perhaps it was taught that the gods expected it." I'm pretty sure that no god ever taught that - just men speaking for gods of their own creation. It's an age-old, tried and true method for assuming authority that you wouldn't have if you admitted that such opinions were actually your own.

What really impresses me about your answer is that you don't seem to care, as if all these thoughts don't speak about injustice.

Then you've misunderstood what I wrote. I'm passionate about justice. And truth. And societal well-being. And the future of man and the other life on earth. Those are the chief reasons I am such an avid antitheist. I find organized Christianity and Islam antithetical to those values. And I understand how off putting that is to those who value congenial conversation and a positive attitude over countenancing issues that may require criticism of cherished beliefs, such as the one that the church is an agent of social good, or that faith is a virtue.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Ah, yes the Jews, the chosen ones, what vanity, Jesus exposed that part of their philosophy.

I'm sure vanity was exposed but yes, they were the carriers of the Gospel for Christians and the one's that the Messiah came through (or will come through for many Jews).
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Actually if you were to read the book, you would find that it was Jesus who had disdain for them. To be exact they were of Jewish decent.
Ya, I "read the book" many times over, but did you forget the part whereas Jesus said he came only for the Jews? Also, can you show us where Jesus supposedly had "disdain for them"?

And, if they "were of Jewish decent" [actually "descent"], then they're "Jews" since it is a nationality.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I suspect church began because some people, when time permitted, sought out a place where conversation differed than that which you would find in the average day to day life. Most people find life challenging enough that they don't have time to think about it.
It wasn't thought of or called church at this time, just a place to meet. I suspect that no matter where these conversations started they all ended at "What's it all about?". There were no names for the different thoughts put forth (at this time) but they were all there. Some believed that life came from without, some from with in and some thought of it as a fleeting moment. But they all focused on the same question, not fighting with each out.
Now we have churches and the only questions are with regrads to understanding what is being taught(thought of you when I wrote these words, Laika or more specifiically Communism). There are traditions, rituals, history and pagentry to occupy the masses and some honory degree for those that wish to master the teachings. And the leadership has trouble with transparency.

What happened between then and now, what is the missing link?

Maybe...

Here's an interesting article.

Gobekli Tepe: The World’s First Temple? | History | Smithsonian

One of man's first temples.

A place of natural awe, to gather, wonder and deal with their fears.

Animals and other natural predators became demons and Heroes who fought the predators and won became gods. They probably celebrated the stories of heroes, maybe even imagined the watched over the brave and carried the fallen to a place of rest. In this case the temple/burial ground.

The temple where the spirit of the heroic remained. Go there and speak with the ancients to gather courage and ask for blessings. You'd bring gifts to please the heroic ancients to obtain their blessings. You needed caretakers for the site who became priest and survived off the gifts brought. Eventually demanding a gift for the blessing.

These places held the authority of the ancient heroes/gods. Chieftains would seek out this blessing before battle. Those that were successful in battle were chosen/blessed by the gods.

The priests held divine authority they could give to a chieftain of their choosing. Having divine authority allowed a chieftain to gather more followers, become more powerful. Tribal leadership and the priesthood began to walk hand in hand.

Temples became a place of divine authority which gave that authority to the tribal leaders.

I recall when president Bush said something about God being on his side in the war against terror.

That's how I imagine it happening anyway.
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I suspect that you never looked into the matter. Why that might be the case is a mystery.

From Wiki ...

Etymology

In Greek, the adjective kyriak-ós/-ē/-ón means "belonging, or pertaining, to a Kyrios" ("Lord"), and the usage was adopted by early Christians of the Eastern Mediterranean with regard to anything pertaining to the Lord Jesus Christ: hence "Kyriakós oíkos" ("house of the Lord", church), "Kyriakē" ("[the day] of the Lord", i.e. Sunday), or "Kyriakē proseukhē" (the "Lord's Prayer").[2] ...

In standard Greek usage, the older word "ecclesia" (ἐκκλησία, ekklesía, literally "assembly", "congregation", or the place where such a gathering occurs) was retained to signify both a specific edifice of Christian worship (a "church"), and the overall community of the faithful (the "Church"). ...

Antiquity

According to the New Testament, the earliest Christians did not build church buildings. Instead, they gathered in homes (Acts 17:5, 20:20, 1 Corinthians 16:19) or in Jewish worship places like the Second Temple or synagogues (Acts 2:46, 19:8). The earliest archeologically identified Christian church is a house church (domus ecclesiae), the Dura-Europos church, founded between 233 and 256.[4] In the second half of the 3rd century CE, the first purpose-built halls for Christian worship (aula ecclesiae) began to be constructed. ...​

The Church was and is a gathering place with an agenda

^ That doesn't even rise to the level of adolescent sophistry.
Great information... thank you.

Do you think that there might have been churches before but we simply haven't archaeologically found them?

I ask because of letters of Paul:
Greet also the church that meets at their house. Greet my dear friend Epenetus, who was the first convert to Christ in the province of Asia.

The churches in the province of Asia send you greetings
 
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