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Featured 'Christ's family were refugees too'

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Vouthon, Dec 29, 2018.

  1. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    How can Christ Jesus the Lord be a refugee in his own land, have you figured that out.

    Let's for say that you own a thousand acres of land, now no matter where you go in that land you can never be a refugee seeing you own the whole land.
     
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  2. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Because the Romans had jurisdiction, plus one of the gospels has it that the Holy Family sought refuge in Egypt. Also, a "refugee" is defined as "one whom seeks refuge", typically of a political and/or religious type, regardless as to where they may end up going.

    Hispanics live on Earth, and since boundaries are artificial creations, one can view that they have rights even outside their country of origin, and the U.N. and also American law recognizes that.
     
    #122 metis, Jan 3, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
  3. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    There's no where in any of the four gospel's that has anything about refuge.
    Since you said in the four gospel's then you wouldn't mind by producing in what gospels it's written ( Refuge)

    But still any where Christ Jesus the Lord would go is still his land.
     
    #123 Faithofchristian, Jan 3, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
  4. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    How can you possibly not understand that what you
    are saying is obvious to anyone, and that it was
    obvious the first time through???????

    IN ANY CASE, it is your opinion that he "owned" the
    land.

    But then, "jesus" is said to have said he wasnt god,
    but maybe you dont agree with him. :D
     
  5. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Matt.2[13] Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, "Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there till I tell you; for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him."[14] And he rose and took the child and his mother by night, and departed to Egypt,[15] and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, "Out of Egypt have I called my son."

    I think the rest of us at least know what a "refugee" is even if that word is not used above.

    BTW, Jesus was borne a Jew, and Egypt was and is certainly not a Jewish country.
     
  6. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    So that you know, it's not my opinion, it's what's written in the Bible/scriptures.
    But then you wouldn't no nothing about it.

    Like I said, if you owned a thousand acres of land and no matter where you went on that land, there is no way you can be a refugee on your own land.

    There's no where Jesus as ever saying that he isn't God.
    Can you produce in what book and chapter and verses in the Bible where Jesus said such a thing.
     
  7. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    There's nothing there about ( Refuge)

    It doesn't matter what others will say, What really matters is what God will say, who's land is who's. Seeing that Christ Jesus created all things and even the earth, that means all land of the earth belongs to Christ Jesus the Lords.

    So how is it that you add unto what isn't there.
    Still all land whether it's Egypt or Jewish or any where else, is still the land of Christ Jesus the Lords

    Exodus 19:5--"Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine"

    Colossians 1:16-17--"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him"

    17-- "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist"

    Therefore no matter where Christ Jesus the Lord goes in the land of the earth, all the land of the earth belongs to Christ Jesus the Lord.

    Seeing to be a refugee, means going into a land that is not yours
    Seeing that Christ Jesus created all things, including the earth.
    Therefore Christ Jesus the Lord can not be a refugee in his own land the earth.
     
    #127 Faithofchristian, Jan 3, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
  8. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Apparently you have no comprehension of even the most basic English as other words can sometimes mean much the same as another word. The author could easily have put "refuge" or "refugees" in when referring to the Holy Family fleeing to Egypt without changing its context.

    Anyhow, believe in what you want to believe as you surely do that quite well.

    BTW, are you related to Donald Trump as I see a similar pattern with this between you two?
     
  9. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Are we getting a little sarcastic, of not having things come your way.
     
  10. TheresOnlyNow

    TheresOnlyNow The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think

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    John 14:7-10 [7] If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." [8] Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." [9] Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'? [10] Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

    John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

    John 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

    John 10:37-38 [37] Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. [38] But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

    Matthew 27:43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, 'I am the Son of God.'"

    John 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one.
     
  11. TheresOnlyNow

    TheresOnlyNow The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think

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    They that attack the individual and not the argument have lost their point. Don't let their tactics get to you.
     
  12. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Actually you are right about that, so I do apologize for my rude behavior towards @Faithofchristian.
     
  13. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    If I may say, their not getting to me, but I think I am getting to them.
    Thanks for the information.
     
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  14. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Apology accepted.
     
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  15. TheresOnlyNow

    TheresOnlyNow The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think

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    Perhaps the Christian doesn't realize when reading this latest. This meme isn't new as it seeks to make a corollary between refugees and the holy family. And thereby impugn contemporary efforts to secure a nations border from encroachment by illegal entities. And those who do not have lawful refugee status.

    Shared with permission:
    The Daily Wire
    Joseph, Mary, and Jesus Were Not Refugees


    By FRANK CAMP
    December 25, 2016


    Every December, as millions celebrate the birth of Christ, a bevy of people who know absolutely nothing about the New Testament try their dead-level best to trap Christians in a hypocrisy trap. Memes and quotes spread across social media like a virus, claiming the story of Mary, Joseph, and Jesus is analogous to the Syrian refugee crisis:

    Jesus was a refugee
    Matthew 2: 1-23 pic.twitter.com/zZZp3n1dPK

    — Sara Proegler (@saraeproegler) December 6, 2016
    Although there are multiple variations of the meme, most are similar to the one above, which reads: "Don't forget to hate refugees as you set up a nativity scene celebrating a middle eastern couple desperately looking for shelter."

    A healthy debate about the Syrian refugee crisis is perfectly acceptable and necessary, however, it is in no way analogous to the story of the birth of Christ. Let us count the ways.

    Mary and Joseph Weren't Fleeing a Brutal Civil War

    While thousands of Syrians are fleeing the horrifying civil war in which Syrian President Bashar al-Assad is killing thousands of his own people, Mary and Joseph were returning home for a government-mandated census.

    Luke 2: 1-7 states:

    "In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. (This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was governor of Syria.) And everyone went to their own town to register.

    So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David. He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child. While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no guest room available for them."

    The two situations couldn't be more different.

    There Was No Room at the "Inn"

    Tradition has long-held that the reason Mary and Joseph were sheltered in a manger was because there was "no room at the inn." This is a mistranslation of sorts, and as seen above in the New International Version (NIV) of the New Testament, the Greek word "kataluma" is more accurately translated as "guest room."

    Regardless of exact meaning, the reason Mary and Joseph couldn't find a room--be it a guest room, or a room at an inn--was likely because the town of Bethlehem was filled to the brim with travelers returning home for the census. They weren't turned away because they were refugees fleeing a war-torn nation.

    Mary and Joseph Weren't Potential Terrorist Threats

    Mary and Joseph were Jews returning to Bethlehem for a census; they weren't potential radicals. There was no reason to believe they would enact violence upon the people of Bethlehem.

    Syrian refugees are majority Muslim. Western civilization is currently waging a war with the socio-political ideology of radical Islam. As it stands, the United States has an extraordinarily difficult time vetting Syrian refugees because there is little (if any) data intelligence agencies can extract from Syria due to its ongoing civil war.

    As FBI Director James Comey said: "We can only query against that which we have collected...with respect to Iraqi refugees, we had far more in our databases because of our country's work there for a decade. This is a different situation."

    Fox News reports that Syrian refugees face additional vetting, including the gathering of biometric data, like fingerprints. They also face an interview:

    There is also a "non-adversarial” in-person overseas interview of the applicant conducted by a DHS agent that’s been specially trained during an eight-week course in how to probe an applicant’s credibility.

    However, even the most thorough vetting isn't perfect:

    One example is the case of two Iraqi refugees who were accepted into the U.S. and lived for a time in Bowling Green, Ky. – before they were outed as former Al Qaeda in Iraq terrorists who had shot at U.S. troops and planted IEDs.

    Director of National Intelligence James Clapper said in September, 2015: "I don’t, obviously, put it past the likes of ISIL to infiltrate operatives among these refugees, so that’s a huge concern of ours." One month later, two men entered Greece as refugees. The men later travelled to Paris where they participated in one of the most heinous terror attacks in European history.

    Mary and Joseph were not terrorists.

    They Fled to Egypt

    Proponents of the "Mary, Joseph, and Jesus were refugees" argument frequently point out that the trio fled to Egypt when Herod called for Christ's execution.

    Matthew 2: 13-15 states:

    "When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. 'Get up,' he said, 'take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.'

    So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: 'Out of Egypt I called my son.'"

    Though slightly more analogous than before, Mary, Joseph, and Jesus fleeing to Egypt is still not comparable to the Syrian refugee crisis. As was mentioned above, there was no fear that the blessed family were potential terrorists who would pose a danger to the people of Egypt. Moreover, it's not known if authorities in Egypt even knew that the family entered the nation.

    Progressives, many of whom have only a tenuous understanding of the Bible--if any at all--revel in making Christians appear hypocritical or disingenuous because it validates their belief that those who follow scripture are intolerant, bigoted fools. They publish memes on social media featuring punchy talking points about Jesus and refugees in the hope that people will take them at face value. Unfortunately, many do take such memes at face value, thus feeding the ever-increasing social hatred of Christians.
     
  16. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Whatever the semanticality, it was seriously missing the
    point, but hey, it was not much of a point any of the time.
     
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  17. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    And as many sources will say he did not claim to be god.
    If I wanted to play dueling quotes and websites.

    But then, the guy never wrote anything down, and,
    nobody else recorded (claimed to have "recorded") anything
    till years and years later.

    You of course are welcome to believe as you will, but
    statements of facts not in evidence will not win the day
    except with your group.

    Your last quote presumably makes you about to be
    as much god as jesus. Which, imho, aint much.

    -so that they may be one as we are one.
     
  18. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    Wrong. The comparison is being made by others. I only force people to use the standard they would rather omit as it causes the point to collapse.



    Yes. Now do you see the political angle behind the later point? The "gotcha" attempt at anti-immigration Christians?

    Wrong. You missed the political background of the point. I acknowledge the religious axiom days ago.

    Do you really want to get into theology here? How can Jesus, who is also God, be a refugee due to a human source? How can a prophesied Messiah be a under a real threat while still maintain the prophecy and Messiah claim?

    Believer #1 "Behold our prophesied savior! He will led us to the Kingdom of God by doing X, Y, Z!"
    Believer #2 "Umm Bob...... The King killed him before the Messiah got to point A. They found out about his bday party"
    Believer #1 "Well then.... Who is the next Messiah on the list?"

    Someone stumbles into being a Messiah by accident right? Like falling into a tree.



    Now add the comparison being made.

    Wrong. I only force people to use the standard they rather omit.

    Wrong. I am attacking the political background which has been omitted.

    See the above.

    Yet the comparison must using the modern standard or it fails.

    Wrong. I am just pointing out the political bias and the omission of standard being used.

    We do that all the time anyways.

    Yet you still miss the point that there is an omitted standard which must include modern standards for refugees or the point fails. Try again. Perhaps ask yourself why this comparison is being made so you get a clue
     
    #138 Shad, Jan 4, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
  19. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    As hidden agendas go, that one was kinda
    not so well camoflaged, was it.
     
  20. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    Yet people are blind to it and refuse to acknowledge it even when I put their nose in it.
     
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