Christmas & Santa are agents of evil sent by Satan the Devil

[Ravensong]

Merry Meet Pensive
I agree with your entire post ... There is not one word or chapter in any bible that I know of that forbids Christmas . Even modern bibles don't say this .

 

[SoulTYPE]

I notice my questions have been avoided, t3gah.

So have many others.

Are you implying t3gah that this "present giving" family thing is promoting greed? Geed in the sense that the children EXPECT to recieve presents on Xmas day? as in almost Demand?

 

[Faust]

The latest version of the words of Jesus gleaned from the Bible that I'm aware of is The Lost Gospel Q, also known as the Q source.
I'm impressed at the mention of the Tynsdale Bible which, if memory serves me correctly, along with the Whycliff translation and one other early translation I can't seem to recall at the moment, were used as sources in developing the King James version.
Misters Tynsdale and Whycliff were not popular with the church for their efforts, one was tricked into returning from safe haven and subsequently killed, the others body was exhumed and abused after death but I can't remember which of my books details this episode so you'll have to forgive my poor recollection.
As for "pagan" it means rual person (Greek I believe).
Frubals for Tynsdale t3.
Faust.
P.S. forgive me if I've misspelled. I'm going somewhere and I'm in a rush.

 

[pensive]

And if those pagan nations came up with new practices that weren't on the list of "no no's" wouldn't they still be pagan and disapproved by God? Yes they would.

Well, let's stop and make sure of that, shall we? Before we can talk about whether pagan nations could add new practices on the list, we need to ask if the list was an exhaustive list of pagan practices at the time. A quick study of ancient Egyptian culture would indicate that the answer to that question is a big no. So it appears that at the time, not all the pagan practices of the time made the "no-no list," suggesting that only certain pagan practices were inpermissable to begin with. As such, any new pagan practices that came into existence would have to be carefully conidered through a lengthy study of whether that specific pagan practice is contrary to Biblical instruction.

In this case, contextual reading of this indicates that the pagan practices being condemned by God are those practices that involve what God considers sexual immorality. So if a new pagan practice does not involve sexual immorality, then I would argue that this passage does not apply. Other passages may still apply, making it an unacceptable practice, but that would require further study.

God detailed what he didn't like about those pagan practices and the key word here is 'pagan' nations.

So now you're not only focusing on single verses, but single words within those verses. There is a severe theological problem with that approach. There's also a severe problem with that approach relating to problems of translation and historical context.

So the relevance of whether I'm taking the first verse only is not relevant because the key point is that they are pagan. God doesn't like pagan observances period.

I really fail to see where you've successfully proven supported such a blanket statement.

Pagan as opposed to chosen people. They versus we. The verse is what it means, them that are they and not them that are us. Egypt, not Israel. Canaan, not Israel. Pagan, not chosen.

Now this is where your thinking gets really tricky. In one of his epistles, Paul makes it clear that he's "gave up" on the chosen people of Israel and began to teach the gospel to the Gentiles (pagan). He even went so far as to continue to write that "there is therefore no Jew (chosen) nor Gentile (pagan) in Christ Jesus." The apostles upheld this in the book of Acts when the question came up as to whether one must become a Jew and follow the law before one can become a Christian. So I'd be careful about pulling this "pagan vs. chosen" argument. After all, it tends to go against the main flow of the New Testament.

 

[SoulTYPE]

May I ask a question, t3gah?

It seems to me that,basically, you disagree or have a problem with pagans. Why not just say that you do not believe in the pagan way,and we, (at least i) will still respect you, no matter what beliefs you hold? it doesn't matter to me whether you think it is wrong or right. I know this is a debates section, but it seems to me that you are slightly pagan bashing. Just a frorm of advice, eh?

 

[t3gah]

You mean except for this:
Luke 2:
13Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying,
14“Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests.”
20The shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things they had heard and seen, which were just as they had been told.

Sounds like a pretty big deal to me.....

Matthew 2
11On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh.

They gave him gifts????? And without "Satan Claus" to deliver them??? :biglaugh:

My goodness..... I can't imagine why anyone would want to shout "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests".... and then give each other gifts to symbolize not only the gifts from the magi/wise men but to symbolize the glorious gift of Jesus Christ.

It all sounds sooooo horrible.!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You crack me up t3, thanks for being here.

Scott

Note how the magi gave him gifts and didn't exchange gifts to each other.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

You would think that, being stuck with a perpetual virgin, Joseph would have at least received a consolation gift - perhaps a "Do It Yourself" book or something.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Note how the magi gave him gifts and didn't exchange gifts to each other.

Only due to the notable absence of a 24 hour WalMart in town.

 

[t3gah]

Luke 2:
13 Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying,

Great heavenly host, not people. OK *gotcha*

Luke 2:
14 “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests.”

Nice scripture. Doesn't apply to a pagan celebration.

Luke 2:
20 The shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things they had heard and seen, which were just as they had been told.

What are they doing here? Are they engaged in any of the Christmas ceremonies? Where did they come from then?

Matthew 2
11 On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh.

My goodness..... I can't imagine why anyone would want to shout "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests".... and then give each other gifts to symbolize not only the gifts from the magi/wise men but to symbolize the glorious gift of Jesus Christ.

The magi weren't wise men, they were astrologers.

Yes, I can't imagine why either since the custom of the period was to give gifts to notable families only, not to each other. So why didn't the magi go away and give gifts to everyone they met on their way out of the territory? Why didn't they give gifts to Herod? Why didn't they give gifts to each other? Why? Because the custom didn't demand it.

Christmas is nothing like the custom at all. Gift giving to each other is a pagan thing. Taking this under the wings of Christianity and then saying, "well, the magi did it... and it was a glorious time... and we are celebrating the gift of the messiah.", still don't make it something that stemmed from the real Christians.

The apostles didn't give gifts to each other when Jesus was born. The disciples didn't give gifts to the apostles or the people in the surrounding area's either. No one in the city gave gifts to each other when Jesus was born. Jesus didn't give anyone gifts to celebrate his coming. He didn't order anyone else to do so. Paul doesn't mention any details for gift giving in any of his letters.

Note what Jesus did say on the night of 14 Nisan.

"He took a cup and blessed it, saying drink this means my blood."

He didn't say, "let's get the gifts ready."

"He looked up to heaven and broke the bread after blessing it saying, eat this means my body.."

He didn't detail the whole Christmas charade in that room. Jesus gives two simple instructions to be carried out with no pomp and circumstance or he would have supplied details to the apostles like when God supplied the details of the passover to Moses. (Exodus 12:1- ...)

 

[SoulTYPE]

Christmas is nothing like the custom at all. Gift giving to each other is a pagan thin

I best tell my mom Xmas is off this year as she is a christian..

 

[The Voice of Reason]

30 pages and almost 300 posts later ... and no one has moved one inch on this baby. t3gah still believes that Santa Claus and the Christmas celebration on December 25th is the work of Satan!!

For the sake of sanity, let's just let this one die. If t3gah wants to believe that Satan exists, let alone that he uses Christmas and Santa Claus as his evil agents, just let him. It is obvious - PAINFULLY obvious - that this guy has dug his heels in, and will not listen to anything the rest of you are saying. In fairness to t3gah, I darn sure don't see anyone else on here moving toward his camp either - and that includes me. Truth be told, I only came in here because someone started using the title of the thread in their signature. It was such a ridiculous statement, that I thought it was a joke. Now, I only wish I had never come into this thread in the first place. :bonk:

At what point do we drive a stake in this threads heart and watch it go away?

TVOR

 

[pensive]

For the sake of sanity, let's just let this one die.

Living up to your username, eh?

 

[t3gah]

Please try reading Acts 17. And the rest of Acts, for that matter. I think that you will find that Paul was quite fond of debating.

Perhaps you should try reading more than one verse at a time.

Paul doesn't debate the facts with anyone. He goes around and tells everyone what for and supplies examples from the scriptures. Some accept the news and others do not. He, Paul, doesn't go after the ones that don't and debate the facts with them.

I have read Acts 17.. here's an example from unbound.biola.edu (World English Bible), Acts 17:1-4.

[size=-1]Acts 17:1
Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews.

[size=-1]Acts 17:2
Paul, as was his custom, went in to them, and for three Sabbath days reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

[size=-1]Acts 17:3
explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer, and to rise again from the dead, and saying, "This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ."

[size=-1]Acts 17:4
Some of them were persuaded, and joined Paul and Silas, of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and not a few of the chief women.
[/size][/size][/size][/size]

 

[Scuba Pete]

Point of order TVOR...

We only have 299 posts in this thread. I think there is space for one more...

 

[linwood]

OK..now can we stop it?

 

[t3gah]

Mark 7:9
He said to them, "Full well do you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.

Ephesians 4:17
This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles also walk, in the vanity of their mind,

2 Kings 17:34
To this day they do after the former manner: they don't fear Yahweh, neither do they after their statutes, or after their ordinances, or after the law or after the commandment which Yahweh commanded the children of Jacob, whom he named Israel;

James 4:4
You adulterers and adulteresses, don't you know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
​

Now wait a second. By that logic...I'm sure that you have sinned. Therefore, you must no longer be Christian. You're making some rather powerful statements.

Continuation of this false Christian holiday only perpetuates the lie of those who claim they are Christians but are only a synagogue of Satan.
​

Indeed. Let's check out those scriptures. Let's look at them in context:

[size=-1]Mark 7:9: The Pharisees are complaining that Jesus' disciples are not obeying their rules about washing their hands before eating. Jesus replies that that rule was made by men, not God. Jesus then goes on to point out that these same Pharisees break God's law where God said "honor your father and mother." The first thing to note is that the "man's law" that Jesus is criticizing is a prohibition. There is no prohibition with Christmas. There's no requirement to observe it. It's just what people do. I don't see that as in contradiction to this passage. I would also note that Jesus goes on to say that the real problem is that while following their own, man-made rules, the Pharisees also neglect God's rules. I fail to see compelling evidence in this passage that suggests that following man-made rules or traditions by an act of conscience while still following all of God's rules is a no-no.

Yes and the Pharisee's sort of returned with the Churches that dug up the Christmas gig and the whole celebrating it on the 25th bit. Made it a tradition and now that's what we have today. Just like the Pharisee's, a group supposedly working with God's intentions in mind, take a bunch of pagan ceremonies, bunch them together in the real spirit of what Satan did in the garden of Eden. For sensualties sake and well, it's not really a law I'm breaking, they say to themselves, these false Christians have created a pagan monster of lies perpetuating another lie that because they were a Church of Christ, it's ok in the history books for all Christians to participate in the 'holy day' festivities.

Jesus states, those who are saved are only those doing the will of the Father.

[/size]

[size=-1]Ephesians 4:17: This verse, in context, talks about Gentiles hardening their hearts and giving themselves over to greed and needless sensuality. Again, I don't see why this necessarily has to do with Christmas. I suppose one could take a greedy approach to the gift-giving, but I'm unconvinced it's necessary.

Hardening their hearts to the scriptures and making the niceties part of Christmas a valid reason for disregarding celebrating pagan holy days, practicing pagan ceremonies and passing it off as a celebration of the Christ who was against all pagan celebrations and ceremonies just like God.[/size]

[size=-1]2 Kings 17:34: This passage has to do with people serving and honoring other gods. You have yet to demonstrate that a Christian celebrating Christmas is doing this.

Read the documents associated with the links I posted. The 24th to the 1st of January is for some pagan sun god, the winter solstice, etc. Not the God of the heavens or Jesus.[/size]

[size=-1]James 4:4: Again, this passage has to do with greed and the things caused by greed. It has little bearing an Christmas as observed by most devout Christians I know.

Friendship with the world means taking the worlds side and not God's. They aren't devout Christians if they observe this 'holiday'. Christian isn't like race. You are either following what the Father in heaven likes and what his son, Jesus added further, thus you are a Christian or you are not, which makes you a pagan, not a Christian. It's a sin if you do it out of ignorance and you can ask for forgiveness with a prayer to the heavenly Father. If you find out it's wrong and continue to do it, you are leaving the Father, which the scripture says, and if you leave Him, he will leave you forever. You cease to be Christian and become a pagan.[/size]

I'm sorry, but your verses don't pass the "context test." Nothing you have said specifically says "thou shalt not celebrate Christmas or any other holiday that coincides with a nonChristian holiday." It only says that if you completely ignore the greater message and context of the passages your verse comes in. Also, standing on your head and closing one eye may be necessary to get the interpretation you're trying to force these passages into.

And that's the kick of pagan celebrations that came to be after the bible was penned. If someone can't find it on the list of "no-no" celebrations or observances in the bible then it's alright to do it. But the key point of each "introduction" scripture is that it denotes the group or people the next scriptures will discuss in detail about the customs of the time for the real worshippers of the only true God. The rest is a list that most definitely would have included today's pagan customs and celebrations had they known about them back then. Pagan is pagan unless you can't speak english, then it's gibberish.

So if everyone on earth is looking for the exact verbage to denounce their celebration of something that isn't on the list, they aren't interested in knowing the truth. They're trying to get around the rule or are not well versed with the why's and why not's. Because if it's of pagan origin then it's not acceptable period.

Take the Ark of the covenant for example. God said not to touch it or you will die. Uzzah reaches out to grab the Ark when it falls off the wagon. What happens to him after doing this "good deed"? He dies. What's the point of this? God said it. Don't do it.

_______________________________

 

[pensive]

OK..now can we stop it?

Apparently not.

 

[Scuba Pete]

You know,

I would do a parody of the song "Maria" from the "Sound of Music", but my knuckles would be rapped. Here is the refrain, so you can use your imagination just as I did.

How do you solve a problem like Maria?
How do you catch a cloud and pin it down?
How do you find a word that means Maria?
A flibbertijibbet! A will-o'-the wisp! A clown!

Many a thing you know you'd like to tell her
Many a thing she ought to understand
But how do you make her stay
And listen to all you say
How do you keep a wave upon the sand

Oh, how do you solve a problem like Maria?
How do you hold a moonbeam in your hand?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I thought the problem of Maria was the whole virgin birth thingie ...

 

[pensive]

I thought the problem of Maria was the whole virgin birth thingie ...

I think you got you Maria's crossed. The song NetDoc is referencing is from the musical, "The Sound of Music." The "Maria" in the song is Maria Von Trapp (forgive me if I botched the spelling).