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Christmas is Pagan!
- Thread starter Augustus
- Start date
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
I hope you don't mind if we borrow it for a while then:
Their reply seems to have ignored what UnvirtuousAbbey had to say.
The Digital Monks of @UnvirtuousAbbey
Christmas is Pago-Christian, not pago-pagan.
Guitar's Cry
Disciple of Pan
It all comes out in the wash.
Yes, except for the socks that disappear. Some people have started pinning their socks together to prevent this from happening, but I think its only resulted in 2 socks getting lost instead of 1 -- plus the pin.
The so-called Christmas is really Non-Christian.
How the apostles celebrated Christmas was that they did Not celebrate Jesus' birth.
The Saturnalia existed in the first century and that festival, in one form or another, continues today.
Northern European peoples celebrated mid winter, Yule, a time of renewal of the earth.
Rome celebrated Saturnalia, a remembrance of the time Saturn ruled the world.
The first recorded Christmas was in 336, as Christianity began to gain favour the old tradition was adopted
So yes Christmas is derived from pagan ritual.
Rome celebrated Saturnalia, a remembrance of the time Saturn ruled the world.
The first recorded Christmas was in 336, as Christianity began to gain favour the old tradition was adopted
So yes Christmas is derived from pagan ritual.
I think "Do not taste. Do not touch" is not for Christians. Its just like with anything else. You eat the wheat and chuck the chaff. Christians simply take advantage of the freedom they have in Christ, and why should it be any surprise to find something good in festivities? Christmas has become a time for family to gather, and it was also just amazingly transformed by Charles Dickens book. He turned the focus towards giving, so then it was not even just a festival anymore but a time to recommit to charitable action.
I find even a non-Christian can be a good neighborly Samaritan.
Yes, Charles Dickens Victorian influence, and then coupled with Norman Rockwell paintings.
Irving Berlin's White Christmas, not only put Bing Crosby on the pop hit list, but White Christmas became a sort of anthem to a 'holiday of its own creation' by superimposing Currier & Ives imagery onto a day that had become characterized by feasting and family.
None of which has anything to do with 1st-century Scripture about Jesus' birth.
Before 1850 Americans did Not long for such a Christmas, after all it did Not originate in the Bible.
I understand that Christmas isn't in the canon, and I understand that the date of Jesus birth is withheld. This I have always known. No one has ever attempted to deceive me about this, but if someone did I might be annoyed. If they tried to get me to believe that December 25 was the actual day I would have a problem with that. For one thing the specific day does not matter, or it would be provided. In fact there seems to be some kind of point to not telling us when he is born, as if it were purposely concealed from us. Nobody can say when it happens. This doesn't mean I can't have a day to celebrate the things in the nativity story. They are rich with messages, and there is the declaration of the angels and the bit about the shepherds and all that. Surely its fitting to have a day of celebration. If once a year seems wrong then how about two or three times a year? You could celebrate it every 4 months and avoid the appearance of deceiving people that he was born on a particular day. As for me I think that is not necessary, because its just so widely known that nobody knows the day.I find Jesus said to base worship in truth at John 4:23-24. To Jesus 'religious truth' is Scripture - John 17:17.
Since Jesus was 33 1/2 years old when he died in the Spring month of Nisan,(April) the 14th day, then Jesus would have turned 34 in the autumn of the year.
( Plus, Jesus instructed to remember his 'day of death' at Luke 22:19 )
Jesus stressed worship of his Father and Not of Jesus.
Thus, in Scripture there is No holiday time set aside to put Jesus in 1st place over his Father.
We can honor Jesus in the same way his apostles did.
Thank you. Here are my thoughts on this:
Your division of the aforementioned scripture verse indicates to me that we have very different ideas of what worship is, and I think you will benefit from considering this. Worship is not defined explicitly in canon except when it describes sacrifices, and that is an indirect explanation. There is no 'This is what worship is' How-to Guide, so I have determined this as best as I can. I think I have sleuthed it. My best information and intuition indicates that sacrifices are treaties, and the worship is part of that. This is the original 'Worship'. The sacrifices are times of forgiveness and renewal, of letting go of slights and wrongs. Eucharist is similarly a time when we forgive one another and do not take communion if we have resentment against each other. That's worship in my opinion, and its the closest thing to defining worship based on canon.
Praise is an interesting term, but this is not worship on its own. Its related and can be involved. Worship is work and it is personal, and it is communal harmony. Praise should flow naturally, effortlessly and should always be honest. If someone is amazing, if they are astonishing, if they are fantastic then this should be recognized. Don't hold back, because they are in the image of God. The prophets say that if Israel follows its principles then there will be praise. They say "The LORD dwells in the praises of his people." Sometimes the people praise the LORD but only because of what has been done and what is. If they don't feel it they shouldn't say it. Honesty is very important. Just talking or pretending to praise is not good enough to count. Praise ought not to be hollow. Its better to say nothing, and what good is praising God if you aren't praising the people made in God's image? Therefore praise begins with those made in God's image. "Enter his gates with thanksgiving in your heart and into his courts with praise." A Christmas party well planned can be a great way to do it. You can consolidate ties and mend friendships and so all sorts of neat things.
If you worship in truth it means you truly forgive. You don't merely pretend. The thing is not to let anger and resentment grow in your heart, and then you worship honestly. Don't pretend to forgive. If there is someone you haven't forgiven, go and be reconciled first. You can't say you love God and not love your sibling. God is invisible, and they are visible. You shouldn't bless God and judge your sibling who is made in God's image. That's salt from a fresh spring which is impossible.
This of course is canonical to me. I would not say it if I didn't think so, but still I am like Moses a man who never gets to enter the land. I have a sibling who is particularly difficult to forgive. I'm angry; and so I cannot enter. That land is not for me until I soften my heart. Right? So I have done so to the best of my ability. I have opened channels and am working on this.
One thing about you that is praiseworthy is this supreme effort you put forward. I always have difficulty focusing enough to figure out all of these things about the dates. Its not my gift. I always get it wrong. There are so many details to track.
Thank you for your reply.
I find the definition of worship is found at James 1:27
1 ) care for orphans
2 ) care for widows ( in Scripture a widow of age 60 or more )
3 ) keep oneself from being spotted by the world
Jesus and his followers kept themselves without spot from the world by being neutral in world affairs.
Neutral to world affairs, but Not neutral about God's kingdom government of Daniel 2:44.
Declaring God's kingdom was a theme of Jesus for himself and his followers - Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8
I agree that helping widows and orphans is pure religion as opposed to a system of teaching or ideas about helping widows and orphans.
This does not provide for me a definition of worship just as peace is not the same word as love though they are related. I know worship is related to a gathering of people. I know worship happens at the temple. I know it happens at the tabernacle. I also know that offerings are made there, and I know their names and the conditions of their offering and who eats them. I think worship is described at least partly in passages which describe offerings: fellowship, peace, burnt, firstfruits, sin. Christians taking communion must address the same concerns listed in those offerings or we are forbidden to partake: fellowship, peace, burnt, firstfruits and sin. All of it spells "Forgiving others" to me or "Be at peace with others." It doesn't exclude helping orphans and widows, but that doesn't seem like what worship means specifically. Having a Christmas party seems like a great way to worship if done right.
Often in canon when the term 'Worship' appears it refers to some things related to locations and relates to a gathering of people. "Worship at his holy hill" or in Jesus comment to the woman at the well about worship, where she thinks it must done in particular locations; and he says no the time has come where the location is anywhere. To his disciples Jesus says that they must gather in his name. This is likely a reference to worship, since they are not gathering in their individual names.
Jesus' definition of worship is to worship based on truth, and 'religious truth' is Scripture as per John 17:17.
So, every aspect of one's life as per 1 Corinthians 10:31. Basically meaning to serve, obey in doing God's will.
Thus, primary emphasis is the doing of God's will and Not on ceremony or ritual - Matthew 7:21; James 2:17-26
Micah 6:6-8 wrote to exercise justice, love kindness and be modest in walking with God - Psalms 50:8-15,23.
Yes, according to Hebrews 10:24-26 Jesus' followers must gather in his name.
One reason for such gathering together is because meetings are: survival classes.
Survival classes for the coming time of Revelation 7:14,9 when there will be a great crowd of survivors.
The meeting together found at Luke 10 was to get together to do the work of Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8.
Declare everywhere the good news of God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44 is coming in the hands of Christ Jesus.
Its a constraint not a definition of worship. Its a constraint. He uses the word worship, and that's why we need a definition if we're saying that we're getting everything from the Bible. Its why we need the definition. You have interpolated or inferred a definition into it, but its not there. What he provides is a constraint.
We have to stop there. I've already said that it doesn't explain what worship is, and I've pointed out that there is no explicit definition of worship in the canon except for the descriptions of the offerings which are terse.
Not ceremony got it. Not ritual got it. Still not a definition.
I rest, because all I am saying is there is no explicit definition of worship except for a partial one in the description of the offerings. I have come up with a pretty good and useful definition, not necessarily the last word. I think its forgiving others and being at peace with others, and that this is honoring God through one another.
James 1:27 gives us a meaning of worship.
Jesus gives us a meaning of worship at John 4:23-24 to worship based on truth ( 'religious truth' aka Bible )
Even an atheist can be forgiving and at peace with others. So, can a neighborly good Samaritan.
Only a Christian would declare God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44 as Jesus said at Matthew 24:13-14; Acts 1:8
Only a Christian would baptise followers as instructed at Matthew 28:18-20.
He doesn't use the term worship there. He contrasts pure religion with impure religion. He doesn't explain what worship means, and he certainly doesn't explain in what way offerings are worship. Also if you make James 1;27 the definition of worship arbitrarily then you are presuming that there is no such thing as worship using burnt offerings and that all of the offerings are pointless, but we know they aren't pointless.
He constrains us to be honest when we worship, which ought to indicate that worship is something in which some people can be dishonest. This points to forgiveness or some other thing which tends to be fake. Its no definition and leaves worship up for definition.
Jesus puts huge emphasis upon forgiving others. Forgive and you are forgiven. Luke 6:37 It is of utmost importance. 2Corinth 2:10 "Anyone you forgive I also forgive..." John 20:23 "If you forgive anyone's sins they are forgiven..." There is also the story of the man let down through a hole in the roof, and Jesus seeing the faith of his friends says "Your sins are forgiven," and the gospel explains that the son of man has power on Earth to forgive sins. Its sounds very much like fulfillment of prophecy, goes along with what Jesus says to the woman at the well, fits a definition of worship which involves forgiving others, fits with Eucharist or communion. Its seems like an apt potential definition of worship considering the mystery is Christ in us the hope of glory. Also we can still say that helping widows and orphans is a pure form of religion and not have to give up forgiveness as worship.