Christians, Why Jehovah?

[Halcyon]

Ok, you believe Jesus was the son of God, and Jesus also happened to be a Jew. Take these as undisputed facts for the sake of this argument.

Now, most Christians today are Gentiles. St. Paul brought the teachings of Jesus and the belief in his divinity to the Gentiles from what was a strictly Jewish sect.

Why then do Gentiles suddenly believe the god of the Jews is the God of us all?
It takes quite a major change in viewpoint to go from believing in your own God/s to believing in the Jewish God. And the only reason for doing so is because Jesus and Paul were Jewish.

You can accept that Jesus is the son of god, but why must you also accept that his father is the Jewish God?

 

[No*s]

Ok, you believe Jesus was the son of God, and Jesus also happened to be a Jew. Take these as undisputed facts for the sake of this argument.

Now, most Christians today are Gentiles. St. Paul brought the teachings of Jesus and the belief in his divinity to the Gentiles from what was a strictly Jewish sect.

Why then do Gentiles suddenly believe the god of the Jews is the God of us all?
It takes quite a major change in viewpoint to go from believing in your own God/s to believing in the Jewish God. And the only reason for doing so is because Jesus and Paul were Jewish.

You can accept that Jesus is the son of god, but why must you also accept that his father is the Jewish God?

And how could we accept anything different? The God proclaimed by Christianity is the one that acted in the OT. I simply don't see any other way to go about it.

 

[Halcyon]

And how could we accept anything different? The God proclaimed by Christianity is the one that acted in the OT. I simply don't see any other way to go about it.

The God of modern Christianity, yes. But of Jesus?

If you accept Christ, why must you also accept Jehovah?

 

[No*s]

The God of modern Christianity, yes. But of Jesus?

If you accept Christ, why must you also accept Jehovah?

Again, though, I don't see how a distinction can be made. This is not just because I'm Trinitarian, but also because I cannot imagine Christ, a Jew, saying, "Keep worshipping your gods" either way. To accept His religious teachings would seem to necessitate a change in deity.

I guess I don't see how to come at another conclusion. Forgive me, but I'm quite perplexed

 

[SoyLeche]

The God of modern Christianity, yes. But of Jesus?

If you accept Christ, why must you also accept Jehovah?

Well, since Jesus and Jehova are the same person.....

 

[Halcyon]

Again, though, I don't see how a distinction can be made. This is not just because I'm Trinitarian, but also because I cannot imagine Christ, a Jew, saying, "Keep worshipping your gods" either way. To accept His religious teachings would seem to necessitate a change in deity.

I guess I don't see how to come at another conclusion. Forgive me, but I'm quite perplexed

Maybe i'm no good at explaining myself. I guess its my Gnostic thought clouding my explaining abilities.

I believe in God, an unnamed God. I believe Jesus was the son of God (not in the Pauline sense). Whether you decide to worship God using a name, be it Jehavah, Thor, Ra, Baal etc... that doesn't change who God is.

So, you can believe Jesus was the son of God, sent from God - but you don't necessarily have to accept the Jewish form of God to believe that.

What i'm asking is, why do/did Gentile Christians adopt the Jewish God when previously they did not accept Him as God?

 

[No*s]

Maybe i'm no good at explaining myself. I guess its my Gnostic thought clouding my explaining abilities.

I believe in God, an unnamed God. I believe Jesus was the son of God (not in the Pauline sense). Whether you decide to worship God using a name, be it Jehavah, Thor, Ra, Baal etc... that doesn't change who God is.

So, you can believe Jesus was the son of God, sent from God - but you don't necessarily have to accept the Jewish form of God to believe that.

What i'm asking is, why do/did Gentile Christians adopt the Jewish God when previously they did not accept Him as God?

I see what you're saying now.

Obviously, I don't attribute the claim to divinity to be Pauline. My answer, therefore, is that it was what Christ taught, and it came with the system. When Christ was first proclaimed, so was the Jewish God that He worshipped, and the call to Christ was linked to the call to YHVH from the first.

It becomes an enigma only if one looks at Christ from the perspective you have adopted. Not sharing it, I come to a completely different conclusion.

 

[jewscout]

ummm it's YHVH in english language characters...
but please continue very fascinating.

 

[No*s]

ummm it's YHVH in english language characters...

That's the way my professor's did it, so I've done it that way ever since. I will make the requisite correction, though, because I've seen it in books.

but please continue very fascinating.

I don't know where to go with this without going off-topic. Our differences are based on presuppositions concerning Christ: namely His identity and message. We would have to get into that in order to go further.

 

[jewscout]

I don't know where to go with this without going off-topic. Our differences are based on presuppositions concerning Christ: namely His identity and message. We would have to get into that in order to go further.

well i think the differences in the 2 faiths extend beyond the figure of jesus but i don't see why IMPO a christian can't believe and follow the teachings of the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

 

[Nehustan]

The letters we use are ROMAN. Perhaps as Jewscout is here he can delineate the subtle differences that are lost on English language users. I may be wrong but HaShem is not strictly Jah'weh, rather 'Eheieh'/I am from the revealed name to Moses 'Eheieh Asher Eheieh'. The use of this name/expression is recording as having a most negative effect on the priesthood during Jesus' ministry. As to Jesus being IHVH, he was similarly to the first Adam (Kadmon), interesting word to google 'Keterim'. The name Jeheshuah is constructed from the four letters of IHVH with the addition of Shin, which symbolically is represented in Christianity as the descending dove. Thus while IHShVH may be the 'son' of IHVH (the word)he is not the son of Eloah. It is true that there was a rank of Arch Angel known as the 'Beni Elohim', but this was never meant to represent a physical kinship.

 

[Halcyon]

I don't know where to go with this without going off-topic. Our differences are based on presuppositions concerning Christ: namely His identity and message. We would have to get into that in order to go further.

This made me think.

How about this - why did the early Gentile Christians, the first to convert, make the presupposition that modern Christians today call truth?
What do you think influenced them to give up their native religion and adopt a foriegn one? Instead of incorporating Christs teachings into their native beliefs?

 

[No*s]

well i think the differences in the 2 faiths extend beyond the figure of jesus but i don't see why IMPO a christian can't believe and follow the teachings of the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

We believe we do , but we interpret them quite differently from yall. What I was driving at is Halcyon has a completely different worldview when evaluating the compatibility of Christ and the other ancient pagan views, not Christianity and Judaism (that's a discussion I haven't gotten into because I'm not even sure of Modern Judaism's vocabulary, much less able to discuss the issue intelligibly).

 

[No*s]

This made me think.

How about this - why did the early Gentile Christians, the first to convert, make the presupposition that modern Christians today call truth?
What do you think influenced them to give up their native religion and adopt a foriegn one? Instead of incorporating Christs teachings into their native beliefs?

The only answer can be that it was the message they received. If they received a message that said their gods were fallen angels and statues made by men, then they will be prone to abandon their gods. If, however, they received something more compatible, then they wouldn't.

I believe they received the former, and that we do see some trying to reconcile things with their culture. Gnosticism was a sort of pop-religious movement that crossed through several religions, not just Christianity. In many ways, the Hellenistic era was a very syncretistic one, and Gnosticism was a manifestation of that. It would be the attempt to reconcile the two, but Christianity as a whole found it incompatible with itself, and Gnosticism died. With it died the attempt to reconcile the two (I tend to view Arianism as a sort of "last hurrah," even if there were later manifestations).

 

[Halcyon]

... but Christianity as a whole found it incompatible with itself, and Gnosticism died.

Well, thats one way of putting it.

I guess i'm not gonna get the answers i want. Belief is too deeply rooted nowadays to comprehend what the ancient christians thought. Oh well, thanks for the answers though .

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Ok, you believe Jesus was the son of God, and Jesus also happened to be a Jew. Take these as undisputed facts for the sake of this argument.

Now, most Christians today are Gentiles. St. Paul brought the teachings of Jesus and the belief in his divinity to the Gentiles from what was a strictly Jewish sect.

First, there were original and unoriginal elements of Paul. The Jews had always allowed Gentile converts. For a Gentile to worship God, one had to become a Jewish proselyte. Such a practice still goes on to this day. What Paul did was remove the requirement to become a proselyte.

Why then do Gentiles suddenly believe the god of the Jews is the God of us all?
It takes quite a major change in viewpoint to go from believing in your own God/s to believing in the Jewish God. And the only reason for doing so is because Jesus and Paul were Jewish.

This is not an original idea, either.

You can accept that Jesus is the son of god, but why must you also accept that his father is the Jewish God?

Continuity with Judaism from whence Christianity came.

 

[Halcyon]

This is not an original idea, either.

I didn't say it was. Do you know of some good online sources that might be able to answer my questions then?

Continuity with Judaism from whence Christianity came.

Continuity?!

You take the radical teachings of Jesus, someone who the great Jewish men of the day rejected as a madman and heretic - and then you claim that a continuity must be maintained with the Jewish way of thinking - the Jewish version of God!?

All people have an origin, there is no man without a history and a culture. But when a new thinker arises who challenges the old ideas, they leave the past behind and create something new and different.
The Jews worship the God of Moses. Should not Christians be worshipping the God of Christ? Who can read the words of Christ and not see that his God is different?

 

[nutshell]

We (LDS) firmly believe the Jews are God's chosen people and that the God of the Jews is our creator and God over us all.

In fact, we believe when we are baptized we are adopted into the chosen people, even adopted by a specific tribe, which you find out when you receive what we call a patriarchal blessing. For example, I'm a "gentile," but because I have been baptized I am part of God's chosen and a member of the tribe of Ephraim.

Hope that doesn't confuse you further, but I think it answers your questions.

 

[Halcyon]

Hope that doesn't confuse you further, but I think it answers your questions.

Unfortunately not. You see, you've told me you believe the Jewish God is the 'real' God, and that He is the God of Christ. But not why. Why Jehovah over Baal or Thor?

 

[nutshell]

Unfortunately not. You see, you've told me you believe the Jewish God is the 'real' God, and that He is the God of Christ. But not why. Why Jehovah over Baal or Thor?

Because He commanded us not to have any God's before him. Christianity, IMO, is not a new religion, but a direct extension of Judaism. We even refer to the OT as teh lower law and the NT as the higher law. They are two sides of the same coin, so there is really no reason why we would worship Baal or Thor.