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Christians who deny Christ's divinity/Trinity

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Spear Hunter, Dec 7, 2011.

  1. obi one

    obi one Member

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    I think the Athanasian Creed, which is named after one of the men who was at the Council of Nicaea, stated that you couldn't be "saved" if you didn't believe in Trinity doctrine. Now, since they didn't seem to even understand what "saved" means, and surely couldn't explain the concept of Trinity, then I wouldn't worry too much about their opinions. But one interesting thing is that the Mormons from Utah branch are not considered "Christian", because they reject the Trinity doctrine, whereas the Missouri type of Mormons, who accept the Trinity doctrine, are accepted as "Christians" by those that keep the dogma that came out of Nicaea.
    Athanasian Creed

    Keep in mind that Athanasius was the one who set out the present canon, and was very prominent in establishing the Trinity doctrine.
     
  2. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Not quite....
    Started with the teachings of a Priest named Arius... "Arius proposed that if the Father begat the Son, the latter must have had a beginning, that there was a time when he was not, and that his substance was from nothing like the rest of creation. The Council of Nicea, a gathering similar to the one described in Acts 15:4-22, condemned the beliefs of Arius and wrote the first version of the now famous creed proclaiming that the Son was "one in being with the Father" by use of the Greek word "homoousius."

    The Council interrogated Arius using Scripture, only to find that he had a new way of interpreting every verse they brought before him. Finally, they used the argument that Arius' view had to be wrong because it was new. Athanasius says, "But concerning matters of faith, they [the bishops assembled at Nicea] did not write: 'It has been decided,' but 'Thus the Catholic Church believes.' And thereupon confessed how they believed. This they did to show that their judgement was not of more recent origin, but was in fact of Apostolic times...". In this regard also, Athanasius askes rhetorically, "... how many fathers [in other words, the writings of the early Christians] can you cite for your phrases?"

    The Council of Nicea

    The ruling against Arius did not mean he was not "saved" (not a historical term) just that he was effectively kicked out of the church.

    ... also history will show that this "ruling" had the OPPOSITE effect and the Arians flourished for decades to come.

    My two cents --- you can play a sport with a hockey stick and a watermelon: but if you call it baseball, I respect the right of those who have been playing the game for years to call BULL ******* ! :D

    Peace be with you,
    S
     
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  3. obi one

    obi one Member

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    Excerpt for the Athanasian Creed:
    Athanasian Creed


    1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;
    2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. 3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

    The story of Arius is another story. Arius died under suspecious circumstances. Not only was Arius excommunicated from the Catholic Church and sent to what is known today as Albania, but Theognix and Eusebius were also excommunicated for not going along with the Trinity. In effect, everyone not holding to the Trinity is excommunicated per the Athanasian Creed, a central doctrine of the pagan conforming Catholic faith.
     
  4. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    The Early Judo Christians had a Jewish understanding of ONE GOD.
    As Christianity developed, the difficulty of reconciling Monotheism with God the Father, Jesus his son and the Holy spirit became all too clear in the various factions within the new "Church"

    The Trinity was established as the way forward, at Nicea, set up under the orders of the Emperor.
    Those Bishops who had an alternate view were declared Heretics and their view suppressed.

    The Trinitarian Doctrine is now so deeply enmeshed in Christian theology, it is unlikely to be revisited by those churches that accept it. It has become one of the foundations of a great edifice.

    Individual Christians certainly do question it and have done so openly since the 17th century.
    This questioning, as in this thread. shows that personal Faith in Christianity and the teachings of Jesus do not depend on either a belief in, or an understanding of the "Trinity.
    However the entire edifice of of the theology of the trinitarian churches certainly does.
     
  5. dishcandanty

    dishcandanty New Member

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    Can I say your a little ridiculous? Can we agree that anything and everything can be taken completely out of context? Especially if you are looking for it?

    For example, you said 'Salvation (forgiveness of sins) is not by works' and you cite as your source Ephesians 2:8. Which says: 'For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;'

    To me, that says nothing of works. It says, of your own accord, you can't save yourself. Only through the Blood of Christ, the Grace of Christ. We are saved by Faith

    Now, lets read a little of James 2 (I'd recommend the whole chapter)
    'What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?' (V14)
    'Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.' (v17)
    'But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?' (v20)

    Or
    'And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.' - Revelations 20:12

    Can we open our minds, just a little bit?

    I believe that Jesus Christ, came to Earth, born of a Virgin. That He lived, and died in service of God's children. He was the perfect example, I'm trying to follow Him. That without Him, all mankind must be lost. He completed the Atonement, he died for our sins. Suffered as no other man has. He is the Man. And that is whom I worship. I witness for the Savior. If that means I am not Christian, than I guess I don't want to be. Because this is what brings me happiness. And Im staying here.
     
  6. kellykep

    kellykep Member

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    To answer this question is complex. However, some important pointers need to be considered before we can satisfactorily arrive at a conclusion. These are:

    1. Let the Bible explain and interpret itself concerning the nature, origin, and the role of Jesus.
    2. Outline only from the Bible how Jesus relates to the OT and the NT
    3. Outline how the OT is fulfilled in Jesus, if any.
    4. Explain from the Bible why God had to be incarnated in the person of Jesus and show how this fulfills prophecies of the OT in Jesus of the NT.
    5. etc, etc

    I don't know if these are possible here.
     
  7. Blackheart

    Blackheart Active Member

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    I have enjoyed reading the threads here, and would like to pose a question I have run into lately.

    Where on earth do you get this idea of a trinty. How many Gods do you have?
     
  8. jtartar

    jtartar Well-Known Member

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    Katzpur,
    By what you have posted, I know that you believe that the Bible INTERPRETS itself, Gen 40:8. You believe that all the things written in the Holy Scriptures are true, John 17:17. Theologians believe in INTERTEXTUALITY, which means that ALL scripture MUST agree with all other scripture, every scripture is interrelated.
    Here are a few other scriptures that are of much interest to me, 2Tim 3:16,17, which says that all scripture is inspired by God and are good for setting things straight, and make a man of God COMPLETELY equiped for every good work. Why then does a true Christian need other inspired religious books?? Ps 12:6,7, Prov 30:5,6, Gal 1:6-9, 1Thess 2:13, Rev 22:18, 1John 4:1.
     
  9. waitasec

    waitasec Veteran Member

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    this statement seemed rather interesting.

    do christians consider themselves jewish?
    why or why not?

    wasn't christianity an edited form of judaism?
    isn't mormonism an edited form of christianity?


    FTR, i'm just interested in the criteria one uses that determines what they consider themselves to be.


    to be fair though...i don't think one can define christianity to be anything specific...this is what happens when there are so many edited versions of the one original version

    ambiguity.
     
    #129 waitasec, Jun 30, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2012
  10. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Don't kid yourself -- there is no "one original version."
     
  11. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    You know, you really do need to not get into the habit of telling me what I believe. I certainly don't believe that the Bible "interprets itself."

    What's wrong with embracing all of the information God has made available to us? I can't see why anyone would object to that. But to each his own. If you want to just stick with one volume of scripture, that's fine with me.
     
    #131 Katzpur, Jun 30, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2012
  12. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    What do you mean by "edited"? I'm not sure what you're thinking, but to me, traditional Christianity would be an edited form of Mormonism.
     
  13. Me Myself

    Me Myself Back to my username

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    I expand the trinity:

    We are all Christ, everything is imbebed with the Holy Spirit, and the Father directs it all.
     
  14. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    In what way?
     
  15. Me Myself

    Me Myself Back to my username

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    well, we are all sons and daugthers of God, we are all gods, and Christ said that that which you do to others you do to him.

    Christ is life and we are all alife.
     
  16. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus didnt believe in it--John 17:1-6--- Paul didnt believe in it- 1 corinthians 8:6-- neither did any israelite who ever lived and served the true God.
     
  17. uu_sage

    uu_sage Active Member

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    I reject the man made doctrine called the Trinity. I affirm Jesus' divinity but reject his deity. Jesus was divine in that he had deep and intimate union with God and he was attuned to God's wisdom and presence. God was in Jesus as God is present in all people and all life. God is our Father, Jesus is son of God in that we are all children of God and the Holy Spirit is the presence of God within. The Trinitarian doctrine was adopted long after Jesus died. Jesus and his disciples would have nothing to do with Trinitarianism because they were all faithful Jews. Jesus and his disciples would have professed the Shema- Hear O Israel the Lord our God is one Lord (Duet 6:4, Mark 12:29). Jesus in the Garden prayed to his Father saying, "Father, if you be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but yours, be done". If Jesus were God as Trinitarians claim, then Jesus would have no need for prayer or worship. Jesus during his temptation in the wilderness told Satan to "Worship the Lord and serve him (Adonai/God) only" (Luke 2:8) I am a Christian because I seek to follow in the ways of the Lord as made known in our brother Jesus. I seek to be a co-creator with God in transforming the human race into the human family- making the kingdom of God present in this moment- a reign of God's justice, peace, forgiveness, acceptance, reconciliation and transformation for all God's children where all means all. I refuse to concede the title Christian or Christian faith to those who misuse the names of God and Christ for their own divisive and hateful purposes. I am living proof that you can be theologically liberal, a Universalist, and have a lower Christology and still be faithfully Christian. I am more concerned with Jesus taught as opposed to doctrines and theologies made up about Jesus. I want to follow Jesus rather than worshiping him. I worship the God for whom Jesus bore witness- the Father who Jesus called Abba or Dadddy. God is spirit and is beyond any human comprehension or label. God is male, female and neither. God is all religions and has no religion. To limit God to any human category or label would effectively put God in a box.
     
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  18. Yacoub

    Yacoub New Member

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    In the four Gospels, where did Jesus himself claim to be God, or equal to God? (hint, you will likely find two or maybe three verses to point to.) Even so, I believe those to actually be mis-translation issues. Therefore I believe Jesus is the Son of God and Messiah. But I reject the Trinity...based upon the words of Jesus. For more details, please see the Trinity ebook at www.alignment.life
     
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