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Christians: Where do you draw the line?

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Captain Civic, Mar 11, 2008.

  1. Jeremy Mason

    Jeremy Mason Well-Known Member

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    Katspur, did you really say these thing? I'm having a hard time finding them.
     
  2. Mr. Peanut

    Mr. Peanut Active Member

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    One who trusts alone in Christ alone to have paid for their sins and imputed his righteousness unto them is saved to the uttermost forevermore.
     
  3. Troublemane

    Troublemane Well-Known Member

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    The term Christian should apply broadly to those people who follow the red letters:-- Love God with all thy heart (etc.), Love thy neighbor, and so forth. Any additions later (requiring to believe in irrational, unprovable things such as the ressurection and the miracles) tend to water these original, profound notions down and repell reasonable, responsible people away from the church. I thinks its like saying people need to like both the cake and the icing, theyve gotta like the substantive parts but also the little frilly sugary parts---when its really the core message thats most important.
    :angel2:
     
  4. uss_bigd

    uss_bigd Well-Known Member

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    I have not seen any verses that will authenticate your claim that is indeed a monologue. care to explain why it is a monologue? and what is the spiritual significance of verses showing mologues( as you claim they are)

    if you cannot produce the explaination i am looking for according to the bible, i will declare as a matter of fact that you are INVENTING your own interpretation of things.

    I can explain the spiritual significance of HEB 5, that will authenticate the fact that God, Jesus and the Hily sprit are three DISTINCT beings...

    let me see you do the same...
     
  5. uss_bigd

    uss_bigd Well-Known Member

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    i have to ask a greek language isntructor for that... let us stick to bible facts, besides 2 CHR already replied on this point. please find my other reply. thank you!
     
  6. Dunemeister

    Dunemeister Well-Known Member

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    1. Do that. He'll bear me out.
    2. I am sticking to bible facts -- facts about how exactly texts appear in the bible.
    3. 2 Chr has complained about it but not addressed it. He complained about English grammar (when the issue is Greek grammar), and he complained about how some Oneness group interprets the passage (in English). So if by "replied" you mean simply "typed something" I'm willing to agree. But if by "replied" you mean "dealt with directly" I disagree.

    4. Your post:

    You keep pointing out how there are these conversations and that somehow they pose a problem for trinitarians. But they don't. Trinitarians hold to a DISTINCTION OF PERSONS in the ONE, INDIVISIBLE GOD. So, the trinitarian DOES NOT HAVE TO CHOOSE between monologue and dialogue. For the trinitarian, the dialogue is internal to YHWH, the Triune God, thus a monologue. But the conversation is also between DISTINCT PERSONS of the trinity, hence a dialogue. For the trinitarian, it's not either/or but both/and.

    I DON'T say that these conversations necessarily demonstrate the truth of the trinity as a whole. All they show is that there is a distinction between three divine persons, a notion trinitarians accept. The truth of the trinity is expressed in scripture in many ways. There are passages in the bible that affirm that there is one and only one God. There are passages that affirm that the Father is that one and only God. There are passages that affirm that the Son is that one and only God. There are passages that affirm that the Holy Spirit is that one and only God. And there are passages that affirm that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are somehow distinct -- such as in those passages you mention where the Father and the Son engage in conversation. (I could enumerate them, but I won't for reasons that appear in the next paragraph.) The bible nowhere treats the trinity as a theological point in any sustained way. Rather, it provides the data I just described. The doctrine of the trinity tries to make sense of these passages without distorting them. I think it does so successfully.

    I think that this will be my last response to you. I can tolerate only so much of your rudeness. I don't mind debates, actually I enjoy them. But you have impugned my motives and insulted my intelligence enough to demonstrate that you are more concerned with belittling those who disagree with you than engaging in any sort of sincere discussion which might have the effect of converting them. Last time I checked, you convert no one through insult. I leave you with a couple of passages to mediate on. They have proven invaluable to me:

    1 Peter 5:8 - 16

    Finally, all of you, have unity of spirit, sympathy, love for one another, a tender heart, and a humble mind. Do not repay evil for evil or abuse for abuse; but, on the contrary, repay with a blessing. It is for this that you were called -- that you might inherit a blessing. For

    "Those who dsire life and desire to see good days,
    let them keep their tongues from evil
    and their lips from speaking deceit;

    let them turn away from evil and do good;
    let them seek peace and pursue it

    For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous
    and his ears are open to their prayer.

    But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil."

    Now who will harm you if you are eager to do what is good? But even if you do suffer for doing what is right, you are blessed. Do not fear what they fear, and do not be intimidated, but in your hearts sanctify Christ as Lord. Always be ready to make your defense to anyone who demands from you an accounting for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and reverence. Keep your conscience clear, so that, when you are maligned, those who abuse you for your good conduct in Christ may be put to shame.

    Philippians 2:3 - 11

    Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility regard others as better than yourselves. Let each of you look out not to your own interests but to the interests of others. Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus,
    who, though he was in the form of God,
    did not regard equality with God
    as something to be exploited,

    but emptied himself,
    taking the form of a slave,
    being born in human likeness

    And being found in human form
    he humbled himself
    and became obedient to the point of death
    even death on a cross

    Therefore God also highly exalted him
    and gave him the name
    that is above every name

    So that at the name of Jesus
    every knee should bend
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth
    and every tongue should confess
    that Jesus Christ is Lord
    to the glory of God the Father

     
  7. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    You lost me, Jeremy. You just quoted ratiocinactive and then asked me if I said these things. :confused: I'm not sure what "things" you're talking about, but I haven't deleted any of my posts on this thead so if you can't find something I supposedly said, it's a safe bet I didn't say it. :)
     
  8. Ratiocinative

    Ratiocinative Member

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    I have done nothing but post scriptural examples and ask you some questions. If you feel that is uncivil, then sorry, but this is what happens in a debate. I'm sorry that I don't accept your opinion as valid without asking some questions first. This is, after all, a Christian debate thread so I assumed that you believed the Bible to be true, but after dodging the question so many times it seems that you do not believe the Bible is true. If your convictions are every bit as strong as mine then I would think you wouldn't be afraid to tell us what those convictions are. If you don't want to answer, then fine, but don't blame your being shy on me.
     
  9. Dunemeister

    Dunemeister Well-Known Member

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    Ratio, you have been impolite. You have impugned Katzpur's motives, intelligence, and morality on more than one occasion. Although you have not been as bad as uss_bigd, I can appreciate why she is not that interested in discussing things further with you. If you find these charges confusing, perhaps you should re-read this entire thread and examine your posts. See if an impartial person wouldn't wince several times at your words and your tone. If you can't see it, I guess there's not much more to say. If you can, I'm sure that an acknowledgment and an apology will go some distance to repairing the relationship. Since we all claim to be Christian, let us all treat each other with the charity and respect due to fellow human beings created in the Image of our Creator.
     
  10. uss_bigd

    uss_bigd Well-Known Member

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    I apologize if you find me offensive. but please know and this goes to everyone, i dont know you personally, so it is really impossible for me to be personal with you people.

    but know this, and this goes to everyone this is the Christ's instruction to the early Chritians, of whom we must emulate.

    2 Timothy 4:2
    Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

    Titus 1:13
    This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith
    Titus 2:15
    These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee
    Hebrews 12:5
    And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

    Revelation 3:19
    As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

    and finally

    Titus 1:9
    He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
     
  11. Jeremy Mason

    Jeremy Mason Well-Known Member

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    Sorry for the confession. It was late and I was tired. I think the subject at hand was about the trinity and it looked like people were saying that you didn't believe in the deity of the Father ,Son and the Holy Spirit. I thought you did and was wonder why all the hub-bub.
     
  12. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Thanks for clarifying that. Yes, we do believe what you had assumed we do. :yes:
     
  13. uss_bigd

    uss_bigd Well-Known Member

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    How about including biblical meaning?

    One of the significance Hebrews 5 has is that Paul was sending the message that priesthood is someone of whom God the father Chooses, that even Christ did not want to be the high priest by his own choice but because of the Father sent him. hence the authenticity of the verse

    John 14:28
    You have already heard me say that I am going and that I will also come back to you. If you really love me, you should be glad that I am going back to the Father, because he is greater than I am.

    hence, can the father be greater than Christ if they were the same person anyway?



    no! they are seperate and distinct person ... This is based on biblical meaning and biblical sense (such as the one above) which you cannot refute
    if you will no longer reply, then Good, this will be Good for those who are searching for truth. this reply is for those that seek. to God be te glory!!!
     
  14. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    So, those who use a different Biblical canon than you ascribe to are not Christians? Or you are not a Christian? By your definition, either you or the Orthodox are not Christian. What about those early Christians who did not have a Bible, since it did not, as yet, exist? Were they fake Christians? Maybe your definition is too narrow to be really useful in defining who is and is not a Christian.
     
  15. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    The "original Greek Bible" is the LXX. It contains more books than the Protestant canon.
    What about the OT, which was not written in Greek, but mostly in Hebrew? Should we translate it from the Greek, too?
     
  16. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    2) What about those many of us who don't believe in the substitutionary atonement? Forgiveness, according the OT, is possible for Jews, without Jesus dying on the cross.
    3) Sola fide
    is a Protestant concept, coined by Martin Luther. It has no basis in early Christian salvation theology. Does that mean that no Christian before Martin Luther was really a Christian?

    Perhaps these are Protestant core beliefs, but they certainly are not applicable to the majority of Xy.
     
  17. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    So...you're a "Biblian" and not a Christian? Christians follow Christ -- always have. The Bible is one tool of the Church that we use in order to do that.
     
  18. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Is the Church not the Body of Christ? Is the Church not comprised of individual believers? That's the core of the mystery of the faith: That since we are the Body of Christ, through that mystery we have become one with him.
     
  19. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    I really don't believe that suffering is part of God's plan for us. You really need to delve deeper into theodicy before making such statements.

    Was Jesus doing a monologue? No. Jesus and the Father are clearly two distinct persons, but with one Being.
     
  20. Dunemeister

    Dunemeister Well-Known Member

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    Are you kidding me? The whole book of Revelation is about the suffering of Christians and how they ought to cope while God delays his vengeance. If suffering weren't supposed to be the lot of Christians, this whole book ought to be jettisoned from canon. But then again, so should those portions of James, Peter, Paul, and John which likewise indicate that we are to suffer. So good-bye to the Gospel of John (actually, all of them because they all indicate that believers will suffer).

    God doesn't inflict the suffering, but he does in fact permit it. So it fits into God's will somehow. That's the mysterious and frustrating part of living as a human. But we can have assurance that God sympathizes with the sufferers because he himself became incarnate in Jesus and took the suffering of the world upon himself. He didn't shirk it. He didn't call down legions of angels to rescue himself. No, he suffered humiliation and torture and death at the hands of those whom he loved so much.
     
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