Christians: Where do you draw the line?

[Starfish]

That's what bugs me about the church. Because you're non-trinitarian (among other things), people say you're not a real Christian. But you believe in the deity and authority of Christ. That's all that should matter, right?

 

[IIChr7:14]

As for the Father talking to Jesus at creation, it is well to point out that there was no Jesus then. I think my previous post said all I have to say about how to understand that passage. If you disagree with me, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Before anything else, based on your belief when did Jesus started to exist?

 

[IIChr7:14]

I'm not contradicting myself. You are correct that there is more than one way for the Father and the Son to be "one." Jesus may have, in this case, meditating on his oneness of purpose with the Father and praying for his church to enjoy the same. In fact, I think that's probably the best reading here. But that idea is perfectly compatible with the idea that the Father and the Son are ALSO one in essence or substance. I use Matthew 28:19 among other passages to argue for that.

Can you explain further Matthew 28:19

 

[Jeremy Mason]

This may shed some light:
(John 8:57) "You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
(John 8:58) "I tell you the true," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am"
Jesus is saying that existed before Abraham.

 

[Starfish]

Can you explain further Matthew 28:19

The main reason for missionary work. And baptism is essential. Clear as a bell.

 

[IIChr7:14]

This may shed some light:
(John 8:57) "You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
(John 8:58) "I tell you the true," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am"
Jesus is saying that existed before Abraham.

Thank you, so Jesus existed before Abraham.

My follow up question,

So if Jesus existed before Abraham, when did he started existing before the creation of the heavens and earth or after the heaven and earth have been created?

As for the Father talking to Jesus at creation, it is well to point out that there was no Jesus then. I think my previous post said all I have to say about how to understand that passage. If you disagree with me, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Do you agree with what Duneimeister said, that there was no Jesus then, when God created the heavens and the earth?

 

[uss_bigd]

Thank you, so Jesus existed before Abraham.

My follow up question,

So if Jesus existed before Abraham, when did he started existing before the creation of the heavens and earth or after the heaven and earth have been created?



Do you agree with what Duneimeister said, that there was no Jesus then, when God created the heavens and the earth?

no, he said in genesis, LET US create man, he cant explain why ... besides

Hebrews 5:5-10


5That is how it was with Christ. He became a high priest, but not just because he wanted the honor of being one. It was God who told him,
"You are my Son, because today
I have become your Father!"
In another place, God says,
"You are a priest forever just like Melchizedek." [a] 7God had the power to save Jesus from death. And while Jesus was on earth, he begged God with loud crying and tears to save him. He truly worshiped God, and God listened to his prayers. Jesus is God's own Son, but still he had to suffer before he could learn what it really means to obey God. 9Suffering made Jesus perfect, and now he can save forever all who obey him. This is because God chose him to be a high priest like Melchizedek.


Was Jesus doing a MONOLOGUE? i don't think so..... Jesus and God are two seperate beings ....

 

[IIChr7:14]

In fact, I think that's probably the best reading here. But that idea is perfectly compatible with the idea that the Father and the Son are ALSO one in essence or substance. I use Matthew 28:19 among other passages to argue for that.

What exactly do you mean by "the Father and the Son are also in one essence or substance",and why quote Matthew 28:19 to argue with that?

 

[Jeremy Mason]

If Jesus is God and I believe he is here some info about Jesus' deity.

The Deity of Jesus Christ

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Thank you, so Jesus existed before Abraham.

My follow up question,

So if Jesus existed before Abraham, when did he started existing before the creation of the heavens and earth or after the heaven and earth have been created?



Do you agree with what Duneimeister said, that there was no Jesus then, when God created the heavens and the earth?

If Jesus was was before Abraham and he received all authority in heaven and earth then I have no problem with him being a co-creator with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Another thing to point out is in the NIV there to two spellings of LORD/ Lord in the OT. One refers to the Father and the other refers to Jesus.

 

[Dunemeister]

<snip>But it would be interesting to hear his response to these two questions:

1. Am I a Christian if I do not believe in the Trinity, as long as I believe everything the Bible has to say about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost?

2. Am I a Christian if I believe that my faithfulness to Jesus Christ is the only true measure of my degree of faith in Jesus Christ, and that if I consistently fail to repent of my sins, my faith will get me no where?

I haven't read further than this yet, so I don't know if Ratiocinative has answered. However, here are MY answers, for what they are worth:

1. Hard to say. If you don't believe the Trinity, you do not believe "everything the bible has to say about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost." Indeed, you are resisting the witness of scripture to the Son. For the bible does not affirm the physicality of the Father or the Holy Ghost. According to the bible, there is one and only one divine being, who is a spirit and exists eternally as three distinct persons. One and only one of those persons has experienced physicality. To deny this is to separate yourself theologically from the community inaugurated by Jesus.

But are you in good standing with God? Well, that's another question. I'd say that it's not my place to judge. It is God's place. God will judge you based on the totality of your life lived. Christians and non-Christians (however those categories are understood) will all be judged on the same basis. God does not play favorites.

It's also possible, I think, for persons to be deceived in matters of spirituality and religion. It's also possible to in all good faith not be able to buy into "correct" theology. (I'm assuming for the moment that the Trinitarian doctrine is correct and considering a person who doesn't buy into it even after sympathetically trying to learn and understand it.) I'm not convinced that either of those types of people are automatically damned.

2. Your status as a Christian doesn't depend on your theology of salvation. It depends entirely on having saving faith in Jesus, i.e., faith that produces deeds worthy of repentance. There are plenty of Christians who unfortunately labor under the impression that they are not because they have a skewed theology that tells them that unless they are perfect, God cannot receive them. And vice versa. Some people call themselves Christians, but they don't have the right to because they live in a way completely contrary to the will of God and have no compunction about it whatsoever.

I fully agree with the theology implied by your statement, though. Faithfulness to Jesus is the only measure of one's faith. Your feelings can be deceptive. No burning in the bosom or ecstatic experience (speaking in tongues or whatever) can provide a foundation for one's confidence. Rather, you must be able to look at your life and see a track record of improvement, sensitivity to moral upbraiding, and a growing pattern of repentance and forgiveness.

 

[Dunemeister]

Before anything else, based on your belief when did Jesus started to exist?

Jesus started to exist in the womb of the Virgin Mary. The Word of God (who became incarnate in the Virgin) has coexisted with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit from all eternity.

 

[Dunemeister]

What exactly do you mean by "the Father and the Son are also in one essence or substance",and why quote Matthew 28:19 to argue with that?

Typo. They are "one in essence" not "in one essence".

In my comments on Matthew 28:19, I was trying to argue for this position, not against it.

Does that clear up the confusion, or should I say more about that?

 

[Starfish]

I haven't read further than this yet, so I don't know if Ratiocinative has answered. However, here are MY answers, for what they are worth:

1. Hard to say. If you don't believe the Trinity, you do not believe "everything the bible has to say about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost." Indeed, you are resisting the witness of scripture to the Son. For the bible does not affirm the physicality of the Father or the Holy Ghost. According to the bible, there is one and only one divine being, who is a spirit and exists eternally as three distinct persons. One and only one of those persons has experienced physicality. To deny this is to separate yourself theologically from the community inaugurated by Jesus.

But are you in good standing with God? Well, that's another question. I'd say that it's not my place to judge. It is God's place. God will judge you based on the totality of your life lived. Christians and non-Christians (however those categories are understood) will all be judged on the same basis. God does not play favorites.

It's also possible, I think, for persons to be deceived in matters of spirituality and religion. It's also possible to in all good faith not be able to buy into "correct" theology. (I'm assuming for the moment that the Trinitarian doctrine is correct and considering a person who doesn't buy into it even after sympathetically trying to learn and understand it.) I'm not convinced that either of those types of people are automatically damned.

2. Your status as a Christian doesn't depend on your theology of salvation. It depends entirely on having saving faith in Jesus, i.e., faith that produces deeds worthy of repentance. There are plenty of Christians who unfortunately labor under the impression that they are not because they have a skewed theology that tells them that unless they are perfect, God cannot receive them. And vice versa. Some people call themselves Christians, but they don't have the right to because they live in a way completely contrary to the will of God and have no compunction about it whatsoever.

I fully agree with the theology implied by your statement, though. Faithfulness to Jesus is the only measure of one's faith. Your feelings can be deceptive. No burning in the bosom or ecstatic experience (speaking in tongues or whatever) can provide a foundation for one's confidence. Rather, you must be able to look at your life and see a track record of improvement, sensitivity to moral upbraiding, and a growing pattern of repentance and forgiveness.

You come across as a very reasonable person, and I can't tell you how refreshing that is.
A couple of questions: I, like Katzpur, don't believe in the trinity, and my interpretation of the Bible completely supports this. So who's got the correct interpretation? We're all looking at the same scriptures.
Also, I don't understand your statement, "faith that produces deeds worthy of repentence." Deeds worthy of repentence would be sin, wouldn't they? So how does faith produce them? Maybe I just misunderstood.
Thanks.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Jesus started to exist in the womb of the Virgin Mary. The Word of God (who became incarnate in the Virgin) has coexisted with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit from all eternity.

This may shed some light:
(John 8:57) "You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
(John 8:58) "I tell you the true," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am"
Jesus is saying that existed before Abraham.

How does Jesus starting to exist in the womb related to this Scripture?

 

[Captain Civic]

1. Hard to say. If you don't believe the Trinity, you do not believe "everything the bible has to say about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost." Indeed, you are resisting the witness of scripture to the Son.

I disagree with that. I personally believe in the Trinity, but I don't believe it's necessary to my salvation. You can believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He is our path to Heaven without believing that He, the Father and the Spirit are one.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Look at it this way, there are three part to one egg. The yolk, the white, and the shell. But we call it one egg. A football team is comprised of many players but we call it "one team".

 

[Dunemeister]

Look at it this way, there are three part to one egg. The yolk, the white, and the shell. But we call it one egg. A football team is comprised of many players but we call it "one team".

These physical analogies simply don't work. Let's take the egg as an example. For the egg yolk is a different kind of thing than an egg white, which is a different kind of thing from an egg shell. But trinitarian theology affirms that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are the same kind of thing.

This complication is one of the reasons why biblical writers such as Matthew had to re-invent Greek grammar and theologians such as Athanasius had to invent new philosophical categories to talk about it. The church has tried to use physical analogies for two thousand years, and for that entire time, critics have demonstrated (correctly) that they are not sufficient.

Sigh. What are we to do? Rest on the biblical witness to the existence of one and only one God that exists as three distinct persons. How does that all work? Frankly, dunno.

 

[Dunemeister]

I disagree with that. I personally believe in the Trinity, but I don't believe it's necessary to my salvation. You can believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He is our path to Heaven without believing that He, the Father and the Spirit are one.

I didn't say that belief in the Trinity is necessary for salvation. I have said that a person who has been gripped by the Spirit of Christ will come to believe and rejoice in the truths of scripture, which have been summarized in the creeds. One of those truths is the trinity.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

These physical analogies simply don't work. Let's take the egg as an example. For the egg yolk is a different kind of thing than an egg white, which is a different kind of thing from an egg shell. But trinitarian theology affirms that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are the same kind of thing.

This complication is one of the reasons why biblical writers such as Matthew had to re-invent Greek grammar and theologians such as Athanasius had to invent new philosophical categories to talk about it. The church has tried to use physical analogies for two thousand years, and for that entire time, critics have demonstrated (correctly) that they are not sufficient.

Sigh. What are we to do? Rest on the biblical witness to the existence of one and only one God that exists as three distinct persons. How does that all work? Frankly, dunno.

Well if the trinitarian theology says that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are made out of the same kind of thing then I think that this view is ambiguous and not Biblical. They, God, are three different persons and they have different roles. However, it's their love and purpose that make them one. In a marriage there are two people, but God in his own way makes them one.