Francine
Well-Known Member
Thank you Katzpur. I do accept your apology. Maybe someday we will be moved by the Spirit to do some kind of an omnibus general reconciliation and have a clean slate.
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Christians: What in this Book do you Disagree With?
- Thread starter DeepShadow
- Start date
Thank you Katzpur. I do accept your apology. Maybe someday we will be moved by the Spirit to do some kind of an omnibus general reconciliation and have a clean slate.
Scott C.
Just one guy
I dont want to beat this to death, but I want to interact more with your comments about human nature and what authority can do to a man. The Doctrine and Covenants (section 121) speaks to the subject:
39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.
Why is this the case?
35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson
What is the lesson we need to learn so well?
41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile
What happens if we have been ordained to the priesthood, but try to exercise influence in any other way than as described above?
37 That they (the priesthood) may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.
The priesthood ordination means nothing and the priesthood authority is dead if the Spirit withdraws because of the inappropriate exercise of authority. A priesthood holder or leader is effective in persuading others to do good, in administration, in teaching lessons, in blessing the sick, in leading, etc. only if the Spirit is present. The Spirit ratifies and makes effective the ordination based on the heart and behaviour of the priesthood holder.
tomspug
Absorbant
Ah, you keep bringing new things up!
I do not agree that power or influence OUGHT to be maintained at all, and most certainly not by virtue. Power and influence should only be a gift from God, not something that OUGHT to be striven for.
The problem here is the determinacy of the Spirit. To define the ways of the Spirit mathematically is to define the ways of God himself. The way I see it, only God knows the true hearts of men and the true purpose of a man, and it is only when a man is in line with God's design and purpose that he is able to move his Spirit through him. Since his ways are mysterious, so to is his Spirit, which is why I do not doubt that even a man who does not understand or even know God can do God's Will unknowingly.
To make doctrine concerning the Spirit I think is a very dangerous thing.
I do not agree that power or influence OUGHT to be maintained at all, and most certainly not by virtue. Power and influence should only be a gift from God, not something that OUGHT to be striven for.
The problem here is the determinacy of the Spirit. To define the ways of the Spirit mathematically is to define the ways of God himself. The way I see it, only God knows the true hearts of men and the true purpose of a man, and it is only when a man is in line with God's design and purpose that he is able to move his Spirit through him. Since his ways are mysterious, so to is his Spirit, which is why I do not doubt that even a man who does not understand or even know God can do God's Will unknowingly.
To make doctrine concerning the Spirit I think is a very dangerous thing.
DeepShadow
White Crow
The scripture he cites would appear to agree with you. It states that NO power can be maintained by virtue of the priesthood.
DeepShadow
White Crow
This is what the scriptures are referring to above. Such powers may be conferred by the will of God, but they only remain if our heart is in the right place.
How does this scripture contradict that?
This sounds like exactly what the scriptural injunction is about: staying in line with God's design, so that He does not withdraw His power.
Ah, well that's something different. "God's Will" and the priesthood are two separate things.
Doesn't the Bible have doctrine concerning the Spirit?
tomspug
Absorbant
Yet it goes on to say HOW it ought to be maintained.
DeepShadow
White Crow
LOL! The fly is doing a better job of staying on topic than I am. As I said before, Dawny, I don't see anything in your post that is answerable. If you care to browse the book again, or if you think something needs clarifying, let us know.
DeepShadow
White Crow
It says how POWER ought to be maintained. This is not exclusive to priesthood authority. Moreover, this priesthood authority is not the only way that the Spirit moves people.
tomspug
Absorbant
I don't know. Not that I'm aware of. God chooses to "reveal" himself in certain ways, but he does not define Himself. He defines US, because it is WE who are finite.
When we try to define God, that is a good way to tell when something is not of God. Definition of God DIMINISHES his infinite nature. To say that God is love is a revelation, but it does not define him. God is not ONLY love, it is an aspect of His Nature that has been revealed to us.
Sola'lor
LDSUJC
I think that is what the scripture is saying too. It's not saying, 'If you want power or influence then you need these things.' Its saying that if someone is put in a position of authority withing the church then those are the qualities they need to have in order to fulfill their calling.
I don't think dinfining any diminished that thing defined. Defintitions merely provide a description the object. I think God wants us to know his nature. God wants us to know his misteries. Obviously we can't fully comprehend God. But we can simplify things to allow us to make understanding easier for our finite minds.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Any time you say the word, Francine, and I mean that sincerely. I have so many olive branches on hand that there is always one to spare.
Sola'lor
LDSUJC
I am. Ooo. Pick me, pick me!
Scott C.
Just one guy
I'm not quite sure I see what you are saying. Let me give an example of one way I understand the passages I quoted from the D&C. I use these verses as a guideline for how I raise my children. God expects me to influence my children for good. If I don't try to influence them, I'm not doing my God given job. I assume you would agree. I should therefore do and say things that influence or encourage them to make good choices. There are godly ways and ungodly ways to go about this task. This verse describes the godly way and says there is power, meaning righteous power of influence in doing it God's way. If I use force, anger, or unrighteous dominion, the Spirit of God will withdraw from me and I will not be effective as a father. That's not the Lord's way. However, if I use patience, brotherly kindness, and love unfeigned, the Spirit of the Lord will be with me and I will be effective. Of course, none of this negates my children's free will.
tomspug
Absorbant
I see your misunderstanding. I think you have an incorrect view as to the godly way of being a leader. For example, in respect to your children, God teaches you the correct way to raise them, but you have effectively NO POWER over the course of their life. That is completely between them and God. That is one thing that I think is so frustrating about being a loving parent is being able to let them make decisions for themselves.
So, as a leader, God GRANTS us authority and power, but we must recognize that it is God alone that works THROUGH us, and that at any moment that power could be taken away from us. This is not determined by whether or not we are GOOD or RIGHTEOUS, but by God's Will alone.
Job was a righteous man, but God took everything away from him. His (poor) friends argued that this was because he was in fact not righteous. The reality was that God had his own plan for Job and was able to make his walk with God stronger than it was before.
If we equate 'power' as a measure for 'righteousness', we remove God from the equation. That is what I am trying to say. It is not correct to say that if we are bad God will take away the Spirit and thus all his blessings. This is simply not true. Unrighteous people are gifted with just as many worldly blessings as the righteous, if not more!
tomspug
Absorbant
But our definitions of God are limited by what is revealed to us in scripture. This is why it is so important to always find scripture to back up any opinion of God, because it is simply TOO EASY to make a judgment call about God without knowledge.
That judgment could evolve into doctrine, God-forbid.
Scott C.
Just one guy
In part agree. In part disagree. The way I live my life does effect if I have the Spirit with me. Of course God gives the Spirit and takes it away, but He has said that if we exercise faith and do right, we will have His Spirit with us. If you disagree with that, we disagree on an important point.
Scott C.
Just one guy
Tomspug, how do you understand this quote from James: "the effectual prayer of a righteous man availeth much". Do you believe that individual righteousness influences how God answer prayers?
tomspug
Absorbant
Yes, I do. But I also believe that God knows our hearts better than we do.
You cannot believe that wealth and comfort are evidences of faith. They most certainly are not! In fact, success in general has absolutely nothing to do with God. Take Jeremiah: he prophecied and prophecied. He ended up in a pit! And no one listened to him. In fact, nothing good ever came of his efforts, except as a sign of Israel's ignorance.
Jeremiah might have considered his life a failure, but he was always following in the Spirit.
In Job, Elihu comforts with the words "if you sin on earth, how does it affect God?" The truth is, God is the Holy Spirit, and our actions and choices have no influence on it. We can only choose to accept it or follow our own path.
You cannot believe that wealth and comfort are evidences of faith. They most certainly are not! In fact, success in general has absolutely nothing to do with God. Take Jeremiah: he prophecied and prophecied. He ended up in a pit! And no one listened to him. In fact, nothing good ever came of his efforts, except as a sign of Israel's ignorance.
Jeremiah might have considered his life a failure, but he was always following in the Spirit.
In Job, Elihu comforts with the words "if you sin on earth, how does it affect God?" The truth is, God is the Holy Spirit, and our actions and choices have no influence on it. We can only choose to accept it or follow our own path.